Paris attacks

[tar]

Thread,

I get you. But there is more to this than hatred because you are being hateful and fearful and stupid. Sometimes we just can't stand the way the other is conducting themselves and need to stop them.

 

 

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/islamic-state-group-targets-gays-with-brutal-public-killings/ar-AAfVhvb?ocid=spartandhp

 

 

​

"They are violating God's laws and doing something that is forbidden in Islam, so this is a legitimate punishment," said Hajji Mohammed, a resident of the IS-held northern Iraqi city of Mosul. There the group has thrown men suspected of being gay off the Insurance Building, a landmark about 10 stories high."

Regards, TAR​

And here I mean to say that we should stop people who suspect someone of being gay from throwing that person off a building.

although we have to be cognizant of the use of the word justified (legitimate)

 

in the quote, the speaker is justified because the gay guy is the transgressor

 

In Western Law and secular law and current U.S. public opinion, the transgressor is the guy that is throwing the gay off the building.

So you get someone here saying they do not want a Mosque in their neighborhood. On the face you would say they are not holding to the principles of secular law and the constitution which allows everyone to follow their own god. But if the reason for their objection is they do not want public whippings and stonings and gay people being lynched and tossed off of buildings, and having speakers calling everybody to prayer....well then you might just agree that Muslim law and U.S. Law cannot coexist in the same neighborhood.

at least not the 6th century version of Islam

in the U.S. we had slaves, we burned witches, we lynched blacks, we beat up gays because the group allowed it. The group insisted that this was the legitimate way of operating to protect one's way of being. But "being a good person" is dependent on how the people around you feel about the thing. It is hardly something that can be measured by some scientific standard.

 

Socrates was put to death, because he didn't get along with his society. Being right however, apparently is not very useful, if you are dead.

I like to use myself as an example. On the theory that I am not that much different from anybody else, with the same basic brain structure, hormones, motivations and desires. I grew up in West Orange NJ, and Orange NJ, then moved to Macungie PA then back to Orange to go to school in East Orange, then the Army in SC, GA, KY and Kaiserslaughtern, then back to Orange and East Orange to finish school. I was hitting a tennis ball on a court across the street from my Dad's house, which was just off the campus of the school the court belonged to. I had gone to the school, my dad had been professor at the school. I was home.

 

I hit the ball over a high fence that separated the court from the dead end street, and would have had to go all the way round, through the campus and out a gate to retrieve it. A young black boy was standing there, looking at the ball in the street and I motioned he should throw it back over. He just stood there. I asked him if he could throw it over and he said he couldn't because he was Muslim and was not suppose to have anything to do with white people. I went around and retrieved it myself, but this small incident tints my feelings about muslims. When I read about the NOI and it teaches that the white man is the devil, I wonder why exactly I should get a warm and fuzzy feeling about the followers of that religion, or at least that sect of the religion.

 

Even if I give them the benefit of the doubt, they won't toss my tennis ball, back over the fence.

Edited December 2, 2015 by tar

[waitforufo]

Tar,

Give it up. Those people are being thrown off of buildings because of the United States. All evil in the world is happening because of the United States. Have you not read the posts in this topic? They all point to the evilness of the United States. We are the Great Satan. Even when we pass wind we create radical terrorism. Wake up.

[tar]

waitforufo,

 

Well of course that is my point, but Overtone will never think that her hatred of Voldemort is an analog.

 

And sarcasm doesn't help the situation, because then she just gets more defensive and strikes out harder and louder against he that shall not be named.

 

It is a big complicated world. I don't have a clue, as to how best to come together on this and find the right way forward, but I am pretty sure that we can do a better job trying to give the other the benefit of the doubt...AND holding to our collective principles. But we have to look to make friends with the people that have our same interests and with the people who have contrary interests and try to find out where reasonable concessions can be made.

 

 

Regards, TAR

registering muslims is not the answer, but obviously, even in France, we know where to go, to find the snakes that are likely to bite us

 

ISIS is just sitting out in the open, daring us to attack them. As the thread is saying, we should not give them what they want. We should not do stupid stuff and kill children and families like Trump is saying...except I suggested something along the same line at work over a year ago. Find all the Caliph's sons and capture them. Hold them and kill one, every time ISIS claims responsibility for a murder. (you don't really have to kill the son, just make it look like you did) Then if that does not slow him down, you capture him, and cut off his balls. With no visible heirs, the shia would have no reason to follow him, and the Baathists would lose a manly Sunni Caliph to rule the Muslim world.

 

Tounge in cheek.

it is probably best not to bomb them into the stoneage

 

one they are already 1400 years closer to the stoneage than we would like them to be

two, there are too many beautiful buildings, and archeological sites that are important to all of us, in the area

 

Boots on the ground, and into the tunnels under it, is probably the best way to go.

Edited December 2, 2015 by tar

[Airbrush]

ISIS in Syria and Iraq likes parading around in armored vehicles waving their guns and black flags. That makes them a clear target for any drone strikes. Why don't we target those vehicles? We have drones flying all around giving real time video. Are we not blasting every vehicle with a black flag yet (except for obvious civilian vehicles)?

Edited December 2, 2015 by Airbrush

[dimreepr]

When are you, both, going to understand?

 

You can’t kill an idea; whatever ordinance you through at it; how, for instance, would you thwart an attack on your imagination?

 

 

Edit/ The answer to which is, stop imagining and start thinking; so, I guess, you can kill an idea after all... Damn it...

Edited December 2, 2015 by dimreepr

[tar]

dimreeper,

 

you can kill an idea by throwing the holder off a building

 

it slows down the next guy who puts that idea out of their mind to avoid being thrown off of buildings

 

It is an obviously affective stategy. Employed by the Nazis and the KKK and any number of authoritarian rules, like Daesh.

 

The ISIS ideology is not spreading because it is a wonderful idea. It is spreading because it looks to the outside like the people inside want to be there. Several links I have posted here, suggest that the people under the rule of the ISIL do not particularly like the idea, but would rather it, than die.

 

I watched Footloose the other day with my wife and daughter. The kids wanted to dance. The society wanted to protect them from evil. Some were burning books and even the preacher saw that was not the way to go. He liked sex with his wife the same as the next guy. In the end the kids danced.

 

I watched Mockingjay 2 the other day with my wife. (I won't tell you the end, I was about to) but suffice it to say that the human spirit won in the end.

 

Ideas will die when they are shown to be unworkable.

Maybe not right away. Maybe you have to fight. Maybe you have to die. But good will triumph in the end.

 

 

There is no reason to let evil stand in this world. No reason. Being afraid to stand against it, is cowardice. Maybe prudent, but cowardly.

 

Regards, TAR

how do you fight an idea? show it to be unworkable and provide a workable one that is better

I am not suggesting we be like the KKK and Nazis and Daesh.

 

I am suggesting we stand together against them. Whatever the cost.

An analogy to fighting an idea, that is real here on ScienceForums is to give a neg rep. when the idea is bad and unworkable, and a pos rep. when the idea is workable.

 

It encourages good thinking and discourages bad thinking.

[dimreepr]

dimreeper,

 

you can kill an idea by throwing the holder off a building

 

 

And if the idea is held by a million, a billion; how long before you get tired?

 

 

The ISIS ideology is not spreading because it is a wonderful idea. It is spreading because it looks to the outside like the people inside want to be there. Several links I have posted here, suggest that the people under the rule of the ISIL do not particularly like the idea, but would rather it, than die.

 

 

 

It’s spreading because more and more people believe the idea is worth fighting for; the way to create enemies is to kill their family; the way to create friends is to care for them, which is much easier to do when you understand them.

 

 

There is no reason to let evil stand in this world. No reason. Being afraid to stand against it, is cowardice. Maybe prudent, but cowardly.

 

 

 

Seeking to demonise those who don’t understand, you, seems to be asking others to kill for you.

[tar]

dimreeper,

 

Wait, you are confusing things here. I am saying it is bad to kill jews in gas chambers, but effective in having people hide their Jewishness. But it is OK to bomb Berlin to stop the practice.

You don't stop bombing because you are afraid more Nazis will get mad at you.

 

Regards, TAR

[dimreepr]

dimreeper,

 

Wait, you are confusing things here. I am saying it is bad to kill jews in gas chambers, but effective in having people hide their Jewishness. But it is OK to bomb Berlin to stop the practice.

You don't stop bombing because you are afraid more Nazis will get mad at you.

 

Regards, TAR

 

 

But you might stop when you understand why they’re mad at you.

[tar]

When a country is on a war footing the way they act toward the country they are at war with changes. They are enemies. Here we have not only an ideology but strongholds and towns and installations that house the enemy. Whether the house is in San Denis or Raqqa, if the holders of the ideology are inside you go in and get them. If they fight, you shoot back until they give up, or are dead. That is war. There is plenty of room to treat muslims and Syrians and Iraqis who do not have that idealogy, with respect and still kill those who have promised, publically that they intend to kill you.

[dimreepr]

When a country is on a war footing the way they act toward the country they are at war with changes. They are enemies. Here we have not only an ideology but strongholds and towns and installations that house the enemy. Whether the house is in San Denis or Raqqa, if the holders of the ideology are inside you go in and get them. If they fight, you shoot back until they give up, or are dead. That is war. There is plenty of room to treat muslims and Syrians and Iraqis who do not have that idealogy, with respect and still kill those who have promised, publically that they intend to kill you.

 

 

To understand the answer you must first understand the question; and to understand that “What is six times seven” makes sense.

[tar]

Dimreeper,

 

I understand. I know the Zionists massacred Palestinians, I know that Iranians died with munitions we gave Saddam, I know we crusaded against the Muslims, I know we occupied Iraq and caused a civil war that killed hundreds of thousands, I know that arabs would help us fin Syria against Assad, if we would not get the Israelis involved.

 

I read the Koran twice, I understand where I am in error according to Muhammed (pbuh). Problem is I AM a disbeliever. I AM Satan in the eyes of the NOI. I DID break faith with Bin Laden and Saddam. I am guilty already. I can take none of it back. But if I would rather innocents not be killed because of me I have two or three choices. Commit suicide, wait to die at Daesh hands, or kill my sworn enemies that have publically pledged to kill innocents, no matter what. Those that will NEVER not hate me.

 

Regards. TAR

Edited December 2, 2015 by tar

[waitforufo]

ISIS in Syria and Iraq likes parading around in armored vehicles waving their guns and black flags. That makes them a clear target for any drone strikes. Why don't we target those vehicles? We have drones flying all around giving real time video. Are we not blasting every vehicle with a black flag yet (except for obvious civilian vehicles)?

How can you do this and guarantee zero civilian collateral damage. Zero is the threshold the President Obama has set. We have been attempting to shut down oil revenues by ISIS by bombing and strafing oil tanks and tanker trucks. We won't strafe moving tanker trucks because they may be driven by civilians. We drop leaflets on tank farms surrounded by tanker trucks warning of imminent attack and then do a few aircraft flybys to show we mean business. Even then we won't bomb or strafe if we feel civilians are present. Many of our sorties return with their weapons because of this zero tolerance policy. Not a way to fight a war. Perhaps Obama should study General W.T. Sherman a bit more.

 

When are you, both, going to understand?

 

You can’t kill an idea; whatever ordinance you through at it; how, for instance, would you thwart an attack on your imagination?

 

Bullshit, it is done all the time. You just need to teach those with such ideas you will never grow tired of killing them and then kill as many as you can. Ask Japan. Ask the Nazis. Ask the KKK. Sure there will be a few hard cases about, but when was the last time you saw a KKK parade in Washington DC?

Edited December 2, 2015 by waitforufo

[tar]

You keep saying that if we stopped being dis-believers then we would be not killed.

 

Not an option.

I respect the fact that 1/3 of you go to Mecca at some point in your life and walk around the stone. I respect the fact that you live as Muhammed (pbuh) lived. It is wonderful to strive 'til all the world is for Allah. It must be quite a feeling to be with hundreds of thousands of others, all reciting the same verses. But in my world there is no throwing people off of buildings because they are gay. There is no cutting off of my daughter's clitoris. Smoking and sex and looking at naked pictures is OK. Worshipping idols is OK. Believing in Christ as the son of God is OK. Believing in forgiveness is OK. Not just OK, really OK. Chopping people's heads off, stoning and whipping, not OK. Worshipping Buddah and the holy Mother OK.

 

Governments should be representatives of their citizens. Mullahs that keep their populations subjugated, stupid and poor...not OK. Dictators...not OK.

 

My way of life, good. Anyone who would kill me because of it, or take it away from me bad.

[dimreepr]

You keep saying that if we stopped being dis-believers then we would be not killed.

 

 

Nope

What I'm saying is; when we stop understanding we start believing.

[iNow]

Tar,

Give it up. Those people are being thrown off of buildings because of the United States. All evil in the world is happening because of the United States. Have you not read the posts in this topic? They all point to the evilness of the United States.

Really? All of them? Fascinating that this represents your perception. Are you sure we're reading the same thread?

[CharonY]

It is weird how contextualization gets thrown out of the window and soundbites get used instead. Pretty much what was predicted to happen within the first few posts.

Moreover, using repetition of unfounded opinion does not make it a fact. Under Obama many drone and other strikes have resulted in numerous civilian deaths (I could try to dig out numbers, though I doubt that someone claiming that the US has a threshold of 0 for civilian deaths would care for accuracy). Moreover, the US has been attacking oil revenue sources for a while now. including over 100 trucks just recently. But there were ongoing attacks at oil refineries since at least last year. And obviously this solved all our problems....

 

As appealing as single action solutions are, if one spends a few minutes reading about a given topic, one would realize that at one point or another one has to think, instead of flailing around and hoping that sufficient explosives will eradicate the problem. For example, the largest chunk of revenue may actually come from taxation. And let me guess, the obvious solution would be to kill everyone in order to rob that revenue source.

[John Cuthber]

 

you can kill an idea by throwing the holder off a building

 

Not if the idea is "it''s good to throw people off buildings". In that case, you encourage it by doing that.

 

And the problem here is that's exactly the sort of idea you are up against.

[Airbrush]

What I'm saying is; when we stop understanding we start believing.

 

Right, so the way to fight against the ISIS idea is to make religion look rediculous. Point out the inconsistencies in the teachings in all religions. Point out the multitude of pointless verses. Point out that all religions believe they are the best religion, that is proof that religion does not come from God, but it comes from the minds of clever wise men who have rewritten the "holy" books over and over for hundreds of years.

 

Impressionable youths need to find out that religion is a scam, a comfortable lie, a great social club for meeting friends, but ultimately based on the great lie that it comes from God and not from men. Teach them science and the scientific method for understanding things. Religion is not scientific but based on wishful thinking. Teach them psychology and how the human mind craves religion. Teach them about Santa Claus, the nice lie for children, until they are old enough to realize they've been lied to by adults. Only an idiot would not wonder if God may also be such a "good" lie.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Airbrush

[overtone]

Sometimes we just can't stand the way the other is conducting themselves and need to stop them

What will it take to persuade you that you shouldn't send in the US Army until - at a minimum - you know what you are doing? That going half way around the world to kill people by the thousands and wreck their countries for generations needs more justification than that they happen to live in the same general area as some other people who are behaving badly, and you can't tell the difference or think of any other way to respond?

 

 

you can kill an idea by throwing the holder off a building

it slows down the next guy who puts that idea out of their mind to avoid being thrown off of buildings

It is an obviously affective stategy. Employed by the Nazis and the KKK and any number of authoritarian rules, like Daesh

So how has that idea been working out for those models of effective strategizing? The fate of the Nazis, the situations created by the KKK, the incoming fate of ISIL, etc - that your idea of success?

You don't stop bombing because you are afraid more Nazis will get mad at you.

We probably should have, in WWII, and concentrated on actual military targets. The firebombing of Dresden, for example, by aftermath estimates, actually boosted German military production. The Nazis ignored that effect, when they bombed London, and the assessment afterwards is that they might have won WWII if they had been wiser. Bombing London was one of the very earliest demonstrations of the contrary effect of bombing civilians - it strengthens one's enemies, in general. And that's in full scale total war, when there are good reasons to bomb - against terrorism, which is an arena of much different circumstances, bombing (and large scale military action in general) is frankly stupid. (The perp has been suckered, nine times out of ten - certainly the US was, allowing bin Laden to draw them into an economy and reputation destroying morass.) It's never even come close to looking like it was working, and the problems it creates are legion - beginning with blowback, and extending to future loss of moral authority (a surprisingly useful strength, if you have it - we are going to miss it badly, I think, in the years to come).

 

 

 

But if I would rather innocents not be killed because of me I have two or three choices. Commit suicide, wait to die at Daesh hands, or kill my sworn enemies that have publically pledged to kill innocents, no matter what.

You have a couple of others. Among them: stay home, weed your garden, and don't get any more innocent blood on your hands than you already have.

 

Or as Hippocrates put it (and he felt the need to make it an emphasized rule, a formal oath, in the face of human nature and its biases): First, do no harm.

Edited December 2, 2015 by overtone

[John Cuthber]

 

Right, so the way to fight against the ISIS idea is to make religion look rediculous. Point out the inconsistencies in the teachings in all religions. Point out the multitude of pointless verses. Point out that all religions believe they are the best religion, that is proof that religion does not come from God, but it comes from the minds of clever wise men who have rewritten the "holy" books over and over for hundreds of years.

 

Impressionable youths need to find out that religion is a scam, a comfortable lie, a great social club for meeting friends, but ultimately based on the great lie that it comes from God and not from men. Teach them science and the scientific method for understanding things. Religion is not scientific but based on wishful thinking. Teach them psychology and how the human mind craves religion. Teach them about Santa Claus, the nice lie for children, until they are old enough to realize they've been lied to by adults. Only an idiot would not wonder if God may also be such a "good" lie.

That's possibly a rather tall order.

All we need to do is show them that one small part of religion is ridiculous.

We only need to get rid of the idea that "The enemy" (i.e.us) is so evil that destroying it is worth dying for.

I can't see us succeeding in that objective while we keep dropping bombs on them.

I still think we should drop food; it's hard to hate someone who gives you a free lunch when you need it.

[tar]

Overtone,

 

I was minding my own business (personally) when the towers came down, and that required my attention.

 

As a country we have been engaged with the world for a long time, fought wars, cured diseases, ended plagues, fed the hungry, brought water to the thirsty and fought against communism and tyranny, and engaged in commerce and travel, just about everywhere.

 

"Our" interests are several and the situations we get into are not of our own making. There are other actors. It is not the Allies fault that Hitler tried to conquer the place. It is not the Allies fault for Imperial Japan to try and conquer the place. It is not NATOs fault for the Soviet Union trying to conquer the place. It is not the coalitions fault for Saddam trying to conquer the place. It is not the free world's fault for ISIS's trying to conquer the place. It has been and is in our best interest to stand against those eventualities. And usually bombs and bullets are required to get the job done.

 

Regards, TAR

[overtone]

I was minding my own business (personally) when the towers came down

No, you weren't. Your country's doings in the Middle East are your business as an adult citizen of a democracy, and you weren't minding it very well at all. You were taken by surprise. You still have very little idea of what your agents and governments and such were and are doing there.

 

It is not the coalitions fault for Saddam trying to conquer the place. It is not the free world's fault for ISIS's trying to conquer the place.

Uh, yeah, it kind of is. At least, they were were closely and directly and very influentially involved, and the situations were of their creating for the most part.

 

It has been and is in our best interest to stand against those eventualities. And usually bombs and bullets are required to get the job done.

At some point, the failure of those using bombs and bullets to get anything actually done in this arena has got to register in the awareness of the American citizenry, or we are screwed. Edited December 2, 2015 by overtone

[tar]

Overtone,

 

So going forward. Without any weapons. What would be a good plan?

 

Regards, TAR

do we let homosexuals get thrown off buildings?

do we ask people nicely to convert to a more tolerant set of beliefs?

[Ophiolite]

It is not the Allies fault that Hitler tried to conquer the place. It is not the Allies fault for Imperial Japan to try and conquer the place.

I take it then, that you haven't actually made a serious study of history. Given that rather obvious fact, do you think it wise to comment on history?