School Violence

[dsjgenius]

Hey everbody

 

i have a sociology paper due in two weeks, and the topic is school shooting and violence.

 

i came acroos some very cool statistics but i can't seem to get a hold of any theories that i can cite

if anybody has info on such theories such as causes of school shooting or its consequences on society, please let me know the author or if possible the website/book i can find the info

 

also any original ides about causes are appreciated.

thanks

[Bettina]

Hey everbody

 

i have a sociology paper due in two weeks' date=' and the topic is school shooting and violence.

 

i came acroos some very cool statistics but i can't seem to get a hold of any theories that i can cite

if anybody has info on such theories such as causes of school shooting or its consequences on society, please let me know the author or if possible the website/book i can find the info

 

also any original ides about causes are appreciated.

thanks[/font']

 

1. Depression

2. Being bullied or repeatedly dissed by classmates.

3. A bad home life

4. Want to make a name for themselves.

5. A member of some cult.

 

The first three I would bet would be a catalyst. The last two, can run alone. Luckily, nobody in my school seems that way, but the only way we can protect ourselves is to report any funny things we see. Teachers are always too busy to pick up on this stuff, but we can. If you noticed a boy or girl acting strange or threatening, report him or her.

 

Thats all I can think about.

 

Bettina

[Mokele]

Of Bettina's list, IMHO, #2 is by far the biggest, and the deepest underlying cause. I base this on the principle of "Been there, damn near done that". Seriously, I actually have a warped form of respect for the school shooters for having the balls to stand up and fight back.

 

Mokele

[Coral Rhedd]

Hey everbody

 

i have a sociology paper due in two weeks' date=' and the topic is school shooting and violence.

 

i came acroos some very cool statistics but i can't seem to get a hold of any theories that i can cite

if anybody has info on such theories such as causes of school shooting or its consequences on society, please let me know the author or if possible the website/book i can find the info

 

also any original ides about causes are appreciated.

thanks[/font']

 

1) Violent homes

2) Violent cultures

3) Poverty

4) Availability of guns.

5) Bullying by exclusionary cliques or gangs.

4) Major depression. (And perhaps drugs that treat it.)

 

Here is a link that blames poverty but it is not exactly scholarly:

 

http://home.earthlink.net/~mmales/chap-3.htm

 

Understand that there are two types of school shootings. The media-hyped white kids in black trenchcoats kill dozens and the daily violence that takes place in urban schools all over America which is closely related to gang violence.

 

If you are more interested in middle-class-white-kid-kills, a good read is by a guy named Sullivan writing for Rolling Stone about Kip Kinkle. However, it is also rather controversial among media critics.

 

I can tell you it's not this reason: Marilyn Manson, Cradle of Filth or any other type of music.

[coquina]

Hey everbody

 

i have a sociology paper due in two weeks' date=' and the topic is school shooting and violence.

 

i came acroos some very cool statistics but i can't seem to get a hold of any theories that i can cite

if anybody has info on such theories such as causes of school shooting or its consequences on society, please let me know the author or if possible the website/book i can find the info

 

also any original ides about causes are appreciated.

thanks[/font']

 

I'm going to give you an entirely different take on the subject.

 

People have an idealized vision of what it is to kill something or someone, but relatively few people have seen it happen in real life, much less participated. I was exposed to guns at an early age, and my father taught me to hunt. I had this visualization of hunting I guess as "bringing home the bacon" or something like that.

 

Side track - I know this isn't a hunting or animal rights thread - I'm trying to make a point.

 

I shot a squirrel and didn't kill it the first time. It was struggling and flipping around on the ground and I had to shoot it again to put it out of it's misery. I remember watching the light go out of its eyes and I never killed anything again.

 

While I don't condone hunting - you kill an animal and get a big lesson. You kill a person and go to jail.

[JohnB]

dsjgenius, I'm afraid I don't have an answer to your question. This is perhaps because your question is incomplete.

 

The answers so far given are also, I think, wrong. All of the factors listed occur in all western nations, yet the other nations don't get the shootings. In my state of Queensland all the factors listed are present in all our schools. We actually have more guns than people. So why don't Australian schools have the shootings?

 

Any answer you get or give that does not explain this disparity between the US and other developed nations is therefore incomplete. For example, it's easy to say "poverty", but why don't poor kids in Australia pick up a gun?

 

Your question is perhaps better phrased as "Why are American schools more violent than those of other developed nations?"

 

To look at it another way, the idea that a student might be carrying does not even cross the mind of 99.9% of Aussie students, yet the worry is there for US students. Why are your schools different? Until you can answer this type of question, any reason you may give for shootings is at best incomplete and at worst, totally wrong.

[-Demosthenes-]

I think one of the main factors would be the absence of a release for the anger of a child who is angry. Right down to it, if they can't tell anyone about it they might want to show everyone by some grand showing which could be violent. Same reason for people who threaten to jump off of buildings and things like that.

[Coral Rhedd]

dsjgenius' date=' I'm afraid I don't have an answer to your question. This is perhaps because your question is incomplete.

 

The answers so far given are also, I think, wrong. [b']All[/b] of the factors listed occur in all western nations, yet the other nations don't get the shootings. In my state of Queensland all the factors listed are present in all our schools. We actually have more guns than people. So why don't Australian schools have the shootings?

 

Any answer you get or give that does not explain this disparity between the US and other developed nations is therefore incomplete. For example, it's easy to say "poverty", but why don't poor kids in Australia pick up a gun?

 

Your question is perhaps better phrased as "Why are American schools more violent than those of other developed nations?"

 

To look at it another way, the idea that a student might be carrying does not even cross the mind of 99.9% of Aussie students, yet the worry is there for US students. Why are your schools different? Until you can answer this type of question, any reason you may give for shootings is at best incomplete and at worst, totally wrong.

 

I am curious John about whether you would characterize racial or cultural tensions as less in Australia?

 

What is your theory about why American schools are more violent?

[ed84c]

American's are allowed to carry around guns

 

Even if childeren arnt supposed to, they see more violence in the streets due to this, and as the saying goes, Monkey See Monkey Do.

[muhali3]

Maybe in Australia violence isn't as much shown in television as it is in America.

In developing nations, "shootings" may not happen because they lack guns to carry out these shootings. I would also account ethnic diversity on violence; there aren't many other developed nations with the amount of diversity the U.S. has.

[klanger]

In the UK we have families from just about every european country living here along with families from most countries around the globe

 

ethinic diversity has nothing to do with violence, if it did, then the whole of the UK would go up in flames!

 

Where I work alone and its a small company with about 60 employees we presently have working in my area a:

 

South African 2

Jamaican 1

German 1

Polish 3

Indian 1

philipeno 1

 

These are some of the people on the shop floor.

 

For lunch I can pop over to the burger van and be served by a Turkish gentleman. For other places to eat here I can choose from Mexican, Indian, Chinese, Japanese, Cantonese, American, Portugese, Greek,Turkish...... those are the ones I know about.

 

We have also opened our doors to countries in danger and given them assilum, such as Korea and Bosnia. I think in the UK we are just as diverse as the states if not more so, though that may seem that way to me because basically the UK is probably no bigger than one of your smaller states, so the diversity of peoples hasnt been diluted down with distance.

 

Basically for every nation/country you can name we have people from there here.

 

Yeah we get bullying in our schools and this does get majorly out of hand at times, and people have been killed, but shootings are very few and far between. Then again we dont have a constitution that states we can take arms.

 

My American husband has seen both sides of it, (diversity in the States v diversity in the UK) and says we have way more here than he has ever seen in his entire life in the states..... 38 years, and we dont live in London where things are even more diverse.

 

LOL sooooooooo diverse that when me and my hubby went to Croydon to apply initially for his 2 year spousal visa we were met very agressively by an african man who told us in no uncertain terms (but with very very basic english) that he would not give us the visa as we had to go the states for it, when I started to say "oh but I thought..." I was emmediately cut off and told if I wanted to continue this he would stamp my husbands pass port declined there and then and he would never be allowed to live here.

 

So we flew to the States and went into NY to the consulate and got the visa there, from what I saw while in New York they had no where near the amount of foreign nationals that we have here locally never mind in one of our large cities.

 

My hubby was a army brat so well travelled within the states.

[ed84c]

Its not necisarily diversity that can cause violence, just two different groups of apposing people, whether ethnically, or gangs or whatever.

 

Take bolton for instance, its not diverse, there are just 2 types of people "immigrants" and "british people", and as the immigrants are from the same country, they dont mix with the people that are living there and hence there is no understanding of each other.

 

Unless people mix such as the example above, the people cannot integrate and understand their differences, and just like two rival tribes feuding, it is a fairly large likelyhood that violence will result.

[dsjgenius]

Yeah we get bullying in our schools and this does get majorly out of hand at times, and people have been killed, but shootings are very few and far between. Then again we dont have a constitution that states we can take arms.

 

klanger thank you u just provided me with a good example of refutation to

the argument that bullying the the major cause of school violence.

 

yes i agree people in UK are also bullied , as so was i as i was from India, but i did not pick up a gun to shoot some kids

 

We have also opened our doors to countries in danger and given them assilum, such as Korea and Bosnia. I think in the UK we are just as diverse as the states if not more so, though that may seem that way to me because basically the UK is probably no bigger than one of your smaller states, so the diversity of peoples hasnt been diluted down with distance.

 

i totally agree with u that UK is as diverse as america i lived there for 4 years when i was a child and i too met a lot of people from diverse background.

 

well thank u for such a good idea

[Coral Rhedd]

The well-publicized cases here, or at least the ones the media often hype are the dramatic ones which include mass slaying. Overwhelmingly in the U.S., the violence that is most prevalent in schools is gang-related I will venture to say. It is gangsters or wannabes who cause these problems.

 

When schools go into lock down around here it is because someone thinks Eastside has infiltrated Westside or because some jock dissed some gangster and now they have to have a pissing contest. Threats are made. There are weapons or rumors of weapons. There is lockdown and the police come and parents get frantic and the gossip flies. Two days later the principal issues a statement that it was an isolated incident and that there are no organized gangs in his school. Then the coverup begins -- complete with reassurances that all is under control and that the isolated troublemaker has been expelled.

 

Lies! All lies!

 

Here are some facts: Most kids who become involved in these instances are either in gangs or trying to be or they are in another socially-approved gang called high school athletics. The troublemakers are often also in classes for the Behavior Disordered. The B.D. kids are part of Special Ed. Special Ed students net the schools a larger per diem of federal money. Because of this federal money, the schools are not expelling these kids. They are practically recruiting them. If they are truant, special counselors go to their homes to see what the problem is and how they can be wheedled back into attending classes.

 

It is true that the drop out rate is appalling, but the Special Ed system here is really broken. Kids are not given the classes or even the special help the state mandates. So the system is underfunding Special Ed while at the same time trying to spend as little of the federal money as possible on it. Take classes size. The state mandates no more than 25 students in a regular classroom and many fewer, depending upon the type of Special Ed students in the class. My friend teaches a Special Ed class and she has 30 students in her class rather than the mandated 20.

 

Here is an example of how greedy the admin is for these federal funds. Mexican students legally in the U.S. (and some illegally) who are not fluent in English (and many are not) are placed into Special Ed classes even though they have no learning disability. (Indeed they are not even tested; instead they make up a disability or disorder.) This is against the the guidelines. It also robs them of an education that would benefit them.

 

Who do they meet in Special Ed classes? Gangsters often.

 

Do you imagine that Special Ed is reserved for the mentally retarded and the syslexic? Think again. Kids with drug trouble, home trouble, and violence problems are channeled there.

 

So is poverty a problem? It is inasmuch as poor schools do not have the tax base of other schools and therefore must resort to trickier methods to balance the budget.

 

Are guns a problem? They are inasmuch as you cannot shoot people without them.

 

Are cliques a problem? Is a gang a clique? When you mix kids who have access to all the advantages with kids whose parents cannot afford basic dentistry and medical, you're going to have envy and class divisions.

 

Is bullying a problem? When I was a substitute teacher I saw it on a daily basis (and sometime I got bullied). I was supposed to report it to admin but if I did, it kicked me in the butt because they made it clear the failing was mine. Not reporting meant I would be called again. Reporting meant I might not. But this isn't only the experience of subs. Regular teachers deal with the same thing and they too are discouraged from reporting.

 

Don't know how it is in you guys neck of the woods. Hope it is better.

 

For those who are wondering how things got in such a state, I live on the Mexican border. We are like Mexico, inasmuch as mostly laboring and service jobs are available to all but the very well-educated or well-connected, the gangs from down there moved up here, and practical rather than idealistic considerations rule. You cannot get appointed dog catcher in this town unless you know someone with power. There is open street prostitution on three of our main streets. You can get layed for $10. Drugs are readily available and cheap. And modida rules.

[JohnB]

I am curious John about whether you would characterize racial or cultural tensions as less in Australia?

Generally less, I think. This could be because our cities are smaller than yours, so there is less population pressure. By the same token, if population pressure was a major factor, then the schools of say, London, should have similar levels of violence as the US schools and I don't think they do. Does anyone have any figures?

What is your theory about why American schools are more violent?

I don't really have a theory, but I do have thoughts. All the factors listed previously are present in all schools in all developed nations, but only in the US has the violence problem got to such a state. "Lock down" a school? We just do not have the need.

 

There is one glaring psychological difference between the US students and here though.

*Extremely broad brush alert. Generalisations involved*

It appears that in the US a weapon, be it gun or knife is some sort sign of manhood. Down here it is the reverse, to need a weapon is to demonstrate your inferiority. People who use weapons are looked down on. A man uses his brains and his fists, only wankers need weapons.

 

You see, it's not the availability of weapons, our stores sell everything up to Samurai swords, you can go into the "Valley" in Brisbane and buy a Saturday Night Special if you want, it's not hard to do. So I think the question is "Why do US students get a weapon, but others don't?"

 

I'm firmly of the opinion that most "explanations" for school violence have more to do with the beliefs of those putting forward the theory than any actual explanation. For example, if you want to push some sort of "Social Justice" idea and claim that "poverty" is the cause of school violence, you can get more funding for your progams. It won't help stop school violence, but you get more money to spend on what you want and politicians appear to "be doing something". If you are an anti-gun campaigner, then blaming guns for school violence will help your cause, won't help the kids though.

 

Perhaps the way schools are funded makes a difference too. In Oz, the government (State) Schools are funded by the state governments. The feds do give money, but it's part of the general "Education" budget and is given to the states, not the schools. (Except in the case of a special program, but these are generally rare.) Our state governments are very picky about where they want the feds sticking their noses.

 

I'm not too sure that class size is a factor as Aussie schools regularly run from 25-30 students per class. Class size effects the quality of schooling, but I don't think it effects the violence.

 

Another area of difference is school uniforms, we generally have them, you don't. It's really hard to make a fashion statement in a uniform. Noone wears "the latest" or "most expensive" outfits and there is only one set of "colours". This removes a source of division and contention.

 

If you're interested, here is the website of my old High School.

[Vladimir]

Quite interesting.

It may also have something to do with the way Americans are brought up. They are raised to believe that they are teh supreme country in teh world. Since they are patriotic this must also give them higher morales in the world, add this with being the most powerful country in the world will obviously have some form of effect.

It is possible that these teachings are passed down from parent to child, and teh child express' tehse beliefs in a different way to there parents. Gangs start to form. Sometimes singular people or small groups need to prove the need to prove their dominance.

With a bit of look, the american fury will be diverted away from tehmselves for once with the presence of another power daring to reach the same heights as the united states

[Coral Rhedd]

Generally less' date=' I think. This could be because our cities are smaller than yours, so there is less population pressure. By the same token, if population pressure was a major factor, then the schools of say, London, should have similar levels of violence as the US schools and I don't think they do. Does anyone have any figures?

[/quote']

 

The city I live in is only about 80,000 but the schools have more students.

 

There is one glaring psychological difference between the US students and here though.

*Extremely broad brush alert. Generalisations involved*

It appears that in the US a weapon, be it gun or knife is some sort sign of manhood. Down here it is the reverse, to need a weapon is to demonstrate your inferiority. People who use weapons are looked down on. A man uses his brains and his fists, only wankers need weapons.

 

This is an interesting insight. In the U.S. we have always had movies with some degree of violence. But twenty or thirty years ago, it was unheard of for a hero in a movie to use a gun as a first resort. Good guys did always use their fists first. That changed gradually after the movie Dirty Harry IMO, when the Clint Eastwood character all but begged the bad guy to try his weapon so that he could shoot him. I am not making any definite claim for the influence of that particular movie. I am just saying that the culture seemed to be much more accepting of the good guy using a gun to settle the problem of the bad guy. Another powerful movie was Death Wish with Charles Bronson which glorified violence.

 

Understand that I am not saying that these sort of movies influence a culture as much as I am saying they reflect one.

 

You see, it's not the availability of weapons, our stores sell everything up to Samurai swords, you can go into the "Valley" in Brisbane and buy a Saturday Night Special if you want, it's not hard to do. So I think the question is "Why do US students get a weapon, but others don't?"

 

In the very visible mass slayings they almost all took place in states where there is easy legal access to guns. Other states are more restrictive. Again, I am not blaming guns but only saying that you can't shoot people without one. Serious criminal elements know how to get around gun law restrictions but kids are not so resourceful. In most of the high profile slayings, the kids got the guns (rifles really) from the easiest place possible: Their homes.

 

Now do not mistake me for an anti-gun fanatic. I am not one. As a matter of fact, I now own two handguns. I have been around guns all my life and have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly of their influence.

 

I'm firmly of the opinion that most "explanations" for school violence have more to do with the beliefs of those putting forward the theory than any actual explanation. For example, if you want to push some sort of "Social Justice" idea and claim that "poverty" is the cause of school violence, you can get more funding for your progams. It won't help stop school violence, but you get more money to spend on what you want and politicians appear to "be doing something". If you are an anti-gun campaigner, then blaming guns for school violence will help your cause, won't help the kids though.

 

You are no doubt right. But in my opinion, if we have violence in the schools, the more immediate solution would be to somehow change the schools because changing poverty, culture, or families is much harder.

 

Perhaps the way schools are funded makes a difference too. In Oz, the government (State) Schools are funded by the state governments. The feds do give money, but it's part of the general "Education" budget and is given to the states, not the schools. (Except in the case of a special program, but these are generally rare.) Our state governments are very picky about where they want the feds sticking their noses.

 

If I were to comment further on the federal government here and the public schools, I would more correctly begin another thread. It is really too complicated and messed up to explore here.

 

I'm not too sure that class size is a factor as Aussie schools regularly run from 25-30 students per class. Class size effects the quality of schooling, but I don't think it effects the violence.

 

What do you do with children with serious mental illness or behavior disorders? Are they mainstreamed?

 

Another area of difference is school uniforms, we generally have them, you don't. It's really hard to make a fashion statement in a uniform. Noone wears "the latest" or "most expensive" outfits and there is only one set of "colours". This removes a source of division and contention.

 

I wish I could say that I thought this was the solution. A few years back the school superintendant tried to institute uniforms in all schools. The compromise solution was that parents in middle schools could vote. So there are middle schools with uniforms and those without. Just anecdotal, but I found the schools with the uniforms had the worst behaved students. I refused to substitute at one of them.

 

If you're interested, here is the website of my old High School

 

Nice site and it seems like a very nice school.

 

Are there many racial tensions in Australia? I am afraid I am very ignorant, but, in Australia, did you ever have slavery, violent conquest of native people, or reservation-like areas where native people were confined?

[Vladimir]

It was a conlony for convicts how bad do you want a start to be. I believe all of the indigneous populace of tazmania i think it was, were all killed

[Coral Rhedd]

It was a conlony for convicts how bad do you want a start to be. I believe all of the indigneous populace of tazmania i think it was, were all killed

 

That's nasty. Why did they kill them?

[Vladimir]

Why were the native americans killed

[Coral Rhedd]

Why were the native americans killed

 

Over land. It was all about racism, power, and property.

[Lance]

Why were the native americans killed

 

They were not all killed. To begin with the tribes were at war with each other before we even got here. They were also in the wrong place at the wrong time. Thay had land that we wanted.

 

edit: sorry, didnt know this was already answered on the second page.

[Coral Rhedd]

They were not all killed. To begin with the tribes were at war with each other before we even got here. They were also in the wrong place at the wrong time. That had land that we wanted.

 

edit: sorry' date=' didnt know this was already answered on the second page.[/quote']

 

Lance, I wonder if you have a better house than I do? Because if you do, I would like to move in. However, once I move in, I will deem you to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I trust you can pack quickly.

[Vladimir]

I think its time to get back to school violence before we start comparing real estate agents

[1veedo]

School violence isn't as bad as it used to be. "Teens" in general do less drugs, damage less property, etc.