What elements, minerals, or just molecules do star forming ' MOLECULAR GAS CLOUDS' contain , as they start a Star Birth?

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

In trying to bridge the gap between , 'No Earth' , and the ' early Earth ' 4,600,000,000 years ago , And to today . I would like to know quite what elements, came together to start off the infant earth . Were there only less diverse , different elements, molecules present at Earth Birth, the rest being generated as time passed over the last 4.6 Billion years . Or were all the elements that we have today present at ' Earth Birth ' ? Thus were they all presents in the spinning Solar System Disc ? Or Molecular Gas cloud? Or were some elements generated during the formation of the spinning disc ,making the early system ? Thus :-

 

What ' Element wise' , Molecular wise, Mineral wise, appeared When? And where ? ... To get to where we are today ?

 

 

Mike

Edited November 18, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Strange]

All the elements on Earth were present at the beginning. There have been a few changes due to radioactive decay but that is pretty insignificant in the overall scheme of things. I think all the helium on Earth comes from radioactive decay. Ditto radon.

 

Note that all the elements other than hydrogen were previously created in supernovae (only hydrogen and helium - and a tiny amount of lithium - are truly primordial).

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

All the elements on Earth were present at the beginning. There have been a few changes due to radioactive decay but that is pretty insignificant in the overall scheme of things. I think all the helium on Earth comes from radioactive decay. Ditto radon.

 

Note that all the elements other than hydrogen were previously created in supernovae (only hydrogen and helium - and a tiny amount of lithium - are truly primordial).

Which ' juncture ' do you mean by " the beginning " ?

 

Where ? quite ? did we change from just hydrogen and helium to ' all , complete ' ( near as dammit all ) set of elements.? Were they all present in the " Molecular Dust Cloud )? The spinning disc of the solar system ? The infant earth 4.6 billion years ago ?

 

Mike

[Strange]

Which ' juncture ' do you mean by " the beginning " ?

 

The formation of the solar system.

 

Where ? quite ? did we change from just hydrogen and helium to ' all , complete ' ( near as dammit all ) set of elements.? Were they all present in the " Molecular Dust Cloud )? The spinning disc of the solar system ? The infant earth 4.6 billion years ago ?

 

They were all formed in earlier generations of stars going supernova.

 

[ACG52]

They were present in the dust cloud that the sun and the planets coalesced from. Except for the primodial elements, hydrogen, helium and lithium, they were created by nuclear reactions in supernovas, which broadcast them throughout space and seefed the dust clouds. The primordial elements were created by nuclear reactions at the time of the Big Bang.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

The formation of the solar system.

 

 

 

They were all formed in earlier generations of stars going supernova.

 

Yes, I sort of , understand , that stars going supernova generate new elements ! But when , quite , was a full set of elements present ? Say after Second generation stars ? Or first molecular clouds generation , or second set of molecular cloud generation ? ( if there is such a thing ? ) Can we say ,( for example ) the universe was about ready at the age of say 5 billion years old from start. And from then on all molecular clouds were all full of complete set of elements . Or was it all a bit hit and miss? Did some clouds have a complete set, others more scantily furnished ? Has spectrum analysis managed to give a date when ( a complete set of elements ) , was ready for star system birth , like ours ?

 

 

These are genuine questions, as I have to deliver a presentation next week on " Sedimentary Rocks " the bit I am a bit unsure of is : Were ALL the molecules , minerals , elements present at the birth of the earth 4.6 Billion years ago , or were some of the necessary ingredients ( atoms , elements, molecules , minerals ) all ready , early on in the start of the 4.6 billion year lifetime , OR were a certain number of this full set , generated as the geological life of the earth progressed up towards the Cambrian time some 550,000,000 years ago ? Thus were the various cycles of sedimentation part of this ( full set manufacture ) or was it all completely , there as a full set at the birth of the Earth , or even before in the molecular clouds, or in the disc giving rise to the planets.?

 

 

They were present in the dust cloud that the sun and the planets coalesced from. Except for the primodial elements, hydrogen, helium and lithium, they were created by nuclear reactions in supernovas, which broadcast them throughout space and seefed the dust clouds. The primordial elements were created by nuclear reactions at the time of the Big Bang.

.

So what you are saying , is that:-

 

A complete set of elements, molecules , mineral dust particles , were all there " present and correct" ready for coalescing into a sun and planets including Earth via a disc , in ' Our ( mother ) Molecular dust cloud ' ?

 

Does this dust cloud have a name ? And did it spawn other solar style systems , as well as ours that are near by , say in the Local Cluster ?

 

Mike

Edited November 17, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Strange]

So what you are saying , is that , a complete set of elements, molecules , mineral dust particles , were all there " present and correct" ready for coalescing into a sun and planets including Earth via a disc , in ' Our Molecular dust cloud ' ?

 

Yes. But ...

 

There were many meteors that fell to Earth, particularly in its early history. Some of these may have been large enough to deposit sedimentary layers. For example, the iridium layer that is thought to be due to the Chicxulub meteor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvarez_hypothesis

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/education/events/cowen1b.html

 

But again, this is generally insignificant compared to the large mass of the Earth. Although, apparently, a large proportion of water might have come from meteorites: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_water_on_Earth

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Yes. But ...

 

There were many meteors that fell to Earth, particularly in its early history. Some of these may have been large enough to deposit sedimentary layers. For example, the iridium layer that is thought to be due to the Chicxulub meteor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvarez_hypothesis

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/education/events/cowen1b.html

 

But again, this is generally insignificant compared to the large mass of the Earth. Although, apparently, a large proportion of water might have come from meteorites: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_water_on_Earth

.

 

O.k. So perhaps there was not enough water ( as H2O molecules) until all the incoming meteors and comets shed there watery load . Do you think all the elements ,and minerals were present at the start or do you think we had to wait the odd billion years for these to arrive by early bombardment by meteors ?

 

Ps I have been and had a look at the Alvarez KT boundary site , it is about three miles from my house in Italy . I pass it by car about Five times a visit to Italy . I have touched with my finger the Iridium layer . blows my mind , every time I pass and go to the top of the mountain by car and have a cup of coffee on the top looking over Gubbio. ( I sort of wonder why the end of my finger is going Black ? )

 

My Geology friend , tells me that Dartmoor was covered in massive layers of rock in the days of the super continent guwandana when we in England were near the equator and it all got eroded away as sediment , to the coast at Dawlish , just down the road . I think we were in a shallow warm sea at the time . I think this was during Earths early history . It's these bits of Dust , elements , and minerals , I want to point to . And say " these are out of our Dust Cloud " in the Local group Laniakea.

 

 

Mike

Edited November 18, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Strange]

But if you are talking about sedimentary rocks, then all this talk of supernovae, meteorites and the orgin of water all seems moot (although very interesting). Surely, by the time sedimentary rocks could form, all of the minerals and water must have been in place? (But geology is not my strongest subject ...)

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

But if you are talking about sedimentary rocks, then all this talk of supernovae, meteorites and the orgin of water all seems moot (although very interesting). Surely, by the time sedimentary rocks could form, all of the minerals and water must have been in place? (But geology is not my strongest subject ...)

Yes you are right , to some extent , but a ) I want to able to talk about the origin of the minerals , that are being laid down as sediment , if possible tracing their origin back to , say that molecular cloud . It makes these particles, I have just sent as a picture have meaning . I went down to Dawlish and picked them up near the cliff ( scraped ) . (B ) To say they originated as dust particles , in the molecular cloud in the local group Laniakea , and you can rub it with your fingers , has a bit of .... Something ..reality .. about it ! Dawlish has moved a great deal nearer the North Pole over the last half billion years but it's there real , and if a dust particle in these sediment fragments , came out of that cloud it's over 4500,000,000 years old and I and they can look at it , even touch it . It's mind blowing !

 

Mike

[mathematic]

(I really don' know much about this subject, but.....)

 

The supernova explosions produced nuclei of all atoms (past H, He, and Li). As the gas clouds cooled down, atoms and elementary molecules formed. When cloud stuff started to condense to form earth stuff, I presume more complex molecules, such as the stuff of rocks would start to form.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

(I really don' know much about this subject, but.....)

 

The supernova explosions produced nuclei of all atoms (past H, He, and Li). As the gas clouds cooled down, atoms and elementary molecules formed. When cloud stuff started to condense to form earth stuff, I presume more complex molecules, such as the stuff of rocks would start to form.

Yes, thank you for your comments , I find this very early history of activity upon the early generation of Earth , fascinating.

 

There also appears to have been quite a bit of activity stemming from an ' heavy bombardment ' from comets and meteors pounding the earth during its early history . As illustrated by the cratered evidence on the Moon's surface . I imagine our craters have long since been eroded or buried !

 

Link : heavy bombardment : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Heavy_Bombardment

 

No doubt all sorts of interesting ' stuff ' arrived from depths of the solar system .

 

Mike

Edited November 18, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Klaynos]

Pick an element, given his much of that can be found on the earth work out how big the bombardment would have to be too being that much material to earth, check references to see if that's feasible. I suspect that other than surface layers (like the iridium layer) and ignoring the moon event then having it brought by impact is not feasible.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Pick an element, given his much of that can be found on the earth work out how big the bombardment would have to be too being that much material to earth, check references to see if that's feasible. I suspect that other than surface layers (like the iridium layer) and ignoring the moon event then having it brought by impact is not feasible.

So do you mean that any elements present on earth , must have come from the ' Molecular cloud ! ' ?

 

Mike

Edited November 18, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Klaynos]

So do you mean that any elements present on earth , must have come from the ' Molecular cloud ! ' ?

 

Mike

With very few exceptions. Yes. Even the origins of the objects that bombarded the earth are in the cloud that formed the solar system. The likeliness of extra solar system objects is tiny. Let me call on the great Douglas Adams. "Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space."

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

I am viewing molecular clouds in a whole new light. They are the fuel of the future . Namely all future stars and planets will come out of them . Wow.

 

I did a painting this morning of one such cloud.

 

Mike

[Strange]

The supernova explosions produced nuclei of all atoms (past H, He, and Li). As the gas clouds cooled down, atoms and elementary molecules formed. When cloud stuff started to condense to form earth stuff, I presume more complex molecules, such as the stuff of rocks would start to form.

 

Edited November 18, 2015 by Strange

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Woodstock - Matthews' Southern Comfort: We are Stardust

Much as I love the sentiments and songs expressing 'Way out ' inner feelings and snatches of ideas nurtured by my generation, as we grew up as free thinking young adults , through the 1960's 1970's and beyond . No doubt the world has been shaped by my generation.

 

Now , though , we are into reality time. A knowledge revolution, a science revolution, a technology revolution , amongst other world encompassing phenomenon of all sorts . ... It is possible to revisit individual parts of ideas and reflect on them in different ways or get added impact , as we know so much more than when these 'songs saying we are star children , or some similar sentiment.

 

Not only are we star dust, in view of what you have said .......

 

 

THE EARTH , has, as it's birthplace, a local ' MOLECULAR CLOUD ' .

 

Itself the left over of many, many, stars( suns) going supernova ,quite some time ago . I want to go there, and see the place of the Earths Birth!

 

 

An impression of a Molecular cloud . " I'm coming home "

 

Mike

Edited November 19, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[pzkpfw]

(Ooops will re-make this post when not at work).

 

(Youtube link issue).

Edited November 19, 2015 by pzkpfw

[BearOfNH]

... and of course a certain (tiny) amount of stuff on earth originally came from Mars via a pinball-like meteor strike.

Edited November 19, 2015 by BearOfNH

[MigL]

I would suggest that 99.9% of all elements on Earth come from the original gas/dust cloud which birthed our ( and other solar systems ) as most, if not all, meteors and comets which come near us, are loosely gravitationally bound to our solar system. There are few, if any, that are captured from other systems on our revolutions about the galaxy.

The original gas/dust cloud was the result of 'seeding' with heavier elements ( after supernova events ) by hot/fast burning 1st generation stars ( composed almost exclusively of hydrogen/helium ).

 

That being said, minerals ( rocks and the like ) are the result of many reactions that occurred when the Earth was young.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

?

 

The original gas/dust cloud was the result of 'seeding' with heavier elements ( after supernova events ) by hot/fast burning 1st generation stars ( composed almost exclusively of hydrogen/helium ).

 

That being said, minerals ( rocks and the like ) are the result of many reactions that occurred when the Earth was young.

.

 

I appreciate your explanation.

 

What I am a little unclear from what you say . This is very important to me .

 

That is , the state of the very infant Earth. Are you saying that the very infant globe earth , had all the elements , molecules and (compounds?) from the cloud . But that this was followed on earth with further processes now occurring on the infant earth , to further transform , some of these elements, molecules , compounds, - to make more complex minerals, that we find ourselves with today ? Or what quite are the changes.

 

Or do you mean the layers of matter and rock go through a mechanism where heavy parts sink to the core, and lighter parts migrate toward the surface. And/Or do you refer to changes in compounds/minerals that are complex in nature such that heavy particles and light particles combine , such that light aluminium will combine with a heavy element and thus float it to the surface / crust area?

 

I would love to know , as I have oft wondered why the elements were not arranged with Uranium in the core and hydrogen at the top of the atmosphere. With the whole element list stretching from core to top of the atmosphere in atomic number order?

 

Or are you talking about the layering of rocks much later happening through out Geological time ? I would like to know about both these matters ?

 

Mike

Edited November 19, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[MigL]

Well one mineral which immediately springs to mind is limestone rock.

 

Any geologists please correct me if I'm mistaken, but limestone is formed by the evaporation of water from the 'skeletal', calcium carbonate remains of dead sea mollusks.

At a much earlier time, perhaps before life existed on Earth, the calcium and carbon would have had to react, to form the calcium carbonate, and dissolve in the seas for the later mollusks to ingest.

The elemental calcium 'dust and elemental carbon dust, however would have been present ( in tiny amounts compared to hydrogen/helium ) in the gas/dust cloud that formed our solar system.

[swansont]

 

I would love to know , as I have oft wondered why the elements were not arranged with Uranium in the core and hydrogen at the top of the atmosphere. With the whole element list stretching from core to top of the atmosphere in atomic number order?

 

In some sense they are. Iron and nickel are in the core, and lighter elements outside. But chemistry also comes into play. Uranium and Thorium, for example, are heavy but stays in the outer parts because they don't fit (size and chemical properties) into the structure you get with dense iron and nickel. So they are excluded from the core.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Well one mineral which immediately springs to mind is limestone rock.

 

Any geologists please correct me if I'm mistaken, but limestone is formed by the evaporation of water from the 'skeletal', calcium carbonate remains of dead sea mollusks.

At a much earlier time, perhaps before life existed on Earth, the calcium and carbon would have had to react, to form the calcium carbonate, and dissolve in the seas for the later mollusks to ingest.

The elemental calcium 'dust and elemental carbon dust, however would have been present ( in tiny amounts compared to hydrogen/helium ) in the gas/dust cloud that formed our solar system.

Here is a map of what the Earth was roughly like during this ' calcium carbonate ' Cretaceous period . And a picture of the responsible ' coccolith spheres .' ( individual coccoliths formed into spheres ) . The cliffs of dover are composed of millions upon millions of dead coccoliths sinking to the bottom of the warm sea , and becoming a sediment .

 

 

 

Mike

Edited November 20, 2015 by Mike Smith Cosmos