A statement of faith

[DrP]

I am a scientist. Most of my life I have been a Christian and have professed a close and personal relationship with god. I have argued for creationism in the past and have evangelised people, often to the point of annoyance. I have even experienced healing 'miracles' and answers to prayer and have 'felt' god's presence and holy spirit. I am a scientist.

 

I can no longer call myself a scientist unless I make this statement: I can no longer call myself a Christian!

 

I can no longer call myself a Christian, not because of the way I act or see the world or through any lack of love compassion. I can no longer call my self a Christian because I am open minded enough to look at all the evidence and I have come to the conclusion that there is no god..... I will change that belief IF I get solid evidence to the contrary..... but good luck with that one.

 

I feel a little silly for taking a lifetime to come to this conclusion, but I forgive myself (something positive I took from Christianity, lol) because I understand how easy it is to get sucked into this and the psychology involved in believing and wanting to believe. At the end of the day, ALL of my experiences and miracles can be explained in various ways other than god.

 

I have many reasons for this 'conversion'... I will answer any Q's anyone has - believer or not.

 

Regards,

 

Dr P.

 

 

[Phi for All]

Lots of courage in that, man.

 

 

Here's my Gospel: an early human, guarding the tribe from predators in the night (let's call him Dirtnose), looks into the darkness and wonders if a lion could be sitting right there in the shadows, there but unseen. The idea festers, he thinks about all the things that might be there, he even tosses his spear into the night a few times to test his idea.

 

And then one night, he's right. He stares into the shadows, imagines the beast crouching there, and he let's fly with his spear....

 

The tribe is amazed when he shows them what he did. Dirtnose imagined something he couldn't see, something that was out to get the tribe, and he killed it where it hid. This idea spreads like wildfire. What else was out there, unseen, that might pose a danger? Could things be unseen even in the daylight? Could there be things unseen that weren't trying to kill the tribe, maybe things that could help the tribe, make the crops grow, make the hunt more successful? Dirtnose becomes Seer of Shadows.

 

It's not hard to see where this leads. Someone will eventually be put in charge of matters dealing with the unseen, and you have your religion with its leaders, its teachings, and its fervent followers. Fervent mostly because everything that happens that's horrible happens because someone offended the gods.

 

 

 

 

So it sounds like you've been infected with some weak atheism; you'd be happy to believe in god(s) that could offer some rational support for belief in Them, but until He/She/It/They can oblige, you're going to assume they don't exist. There are rational explanations for almost everything that's ever happened to you, except a few you really wondered about, and in the past that made you think there are some things only religion could explain. Now you realize history has shown you the rest most likely has a rational explanation as well.

 

Congratulations, on squeezing the last bit of god from the gaps in your knowledge!

 

Who in your life is going to take this news the hardest?

[iNow]

Agree with Phi about your courage. Always remember that you're still the same person with the same heart, the same feelings toward others, and the same character. Not everyone in your life will recognize this, and some may shun you or even turn you away as a result of your conclusion, but it's true. Recall that you can always replace friends and change social groups and/or rituals, but you cannot replicate the value of being true to yourself. That's what matters. Big milestone. Best wishes!

[Danijel Gorupec]

Hey DrP, are you being honest? I ask because your post can also be read as a pamphlet.

 

But I suppose you are honest and you are actually telling us about your personal feelings and decisions. I applaud you (not that much because what you decided, but becuse you made one brave decision). At the same time I am puzzled with some statements in your post.

 

First you say that you cannot call yourself a scientist and a Christian at the same time. Is this something that just cannot work for you, or you believe that nobody can call himself a scientist and a Christian? In my opinion, while I am not sure about calling oneself a Christian, I think a scientist can still easily believe in a deity (a very spritual deity, perhaps).

 

Second, your words "...look at all the evidence and I have come to the conclusion that there is no god" sound iteresting to me. For sure you can reject many Chrisitan teachings by looking at evidence, but I don't know how to do the same with the very idea of god. God is usually understood as something that can evade any probing. Rational approach should give no answer... Basically, in my opinion, a person may need/want god, or a person may not need/want god.

 

I differ from you because I am a 'native atheist' meaning that I never believed in any god. I just did not need it/him. For me, god never fit anywhere. Maybe that is why I always find posts like yours fascinating... Anyway, I suggest you to rethink: did you really come to the conclusion that there is no god, or did you just conclude that you don't need any idea of god in your further (confortable) life. The difference is in how you will approach other people.

 

(Edited a stupid spelling error: wrote 'good' instead of 'god')

Edited November 18, 2015 by Danijel Gorupec

[Phi for All]

For sure you can reject many Chrisitan teachings by looking at evidence, but I don't know how to do the same with the very idea of god. God is usually understood as something that can evade any probing.

That alone should raise red flags. What else in life is like that, immune to observation, yet credited with doing so many things that also have natural explanations?

 

At a certain point, you find yourself repeating all the platitudes that cover religion's sins - "God moves in mysterious ways" was a favorite catchall - and it just seems like you're trying to protect a house of cards from the slightest breeze of criticism.

 

To me, that concept that god(s) can evade observation, know everything, be everywhere, and do anything, is like writing a blank check to a con man, then promising to believe in him with your strongest, most reason-proof form of belief, your faith.

 

I differ from you because I am a 'native atheist' meaning that I never believed in any god. I just did not need it/him. For me, god never fit anywhere.

Can I ask, were your parents atheist or theist or both?

[DrP]

Thanks for the support

 

Hey DrP, are you being honest?

 

First you say that you cannot call yourself a scientist and a Christian at the same time. Is this something that just cannot work for you, or you believe that nobody can call himself a scientist and a Christian? In my opinion, while I am not sure about calling oneself a Christian, I think a scientist can still easily believe in a deity (a very spritual deity, perhaps).

 

 

Yea I'm being honest. I was a christian and a scientist for many years Danijel, so I do think you can be both. yes. The only reason I shared this here really is because I have professed a christian faith on this website, in conversation once or twice a few years back, so thought it relevant to update anyone who remembers this to the change. I have always professed to be into facts (or what I believe to be facts) and try to be honest (within the scope of social decency); honesty is a big part of christianity too, or at least it is in my opinion.

 

 

 

Who in your life is going to take this news the hardest?

 

No one really, lol. Maybe some very old christian friends, but most of my current friends are atheists and most of my family are nominal or they pretend to believe a bit now and again. Most of the people in my life are lovely.

just further to clarify, as everyone's experiences are very different, I took this seriously for a long time. It has only been a couple of years that I have thought this way. I have always had questions though and there are a lot of awkward ones to defend when you are on the christian side of a debate, especially when talking to other scientists, lol. I guess I made excuses for all the inaccuracies or accepted dubious explanations with the thoughts that not everything could be explained. I'm not sure if what I am trying to say is really coming across, there is so much to it all. There are many reasons why I now feel this way. Anyone wanting understand more about the final nails in the coffin for it for me should look at talks by people like Derren Brown, Richard Dawkins or Penn Jillette.

[Phi for All]

I think ignorance breeds fear, and that most people combat it in two ways. You can dispel the ignorance by learning about what you fear, and then both the fear and the ignorance are defeated. Or you can dispel the fear alone by having faith in your god(s).

[Danijel Gorupec]

 

Can I ask, were your parents atheist or theist or both?

My mother is a medium-devoted Christian, and my father is a low-profile atheist. For sure I was not under any pressure.

[MigL]

I don't think it has anything to do with evidence or proof.

Will you still need evidence if some unthinkable catastrophe happens in your life or the ones you care about ?

 

Science needs evidence, faith, by definition, does not.

I don't look down on, or judge, religious people. Their faith is their business, and certainly needs no evidence.

I have gotten to the point in my life, where I don't need a God. He has become like the aether, He adds nothing, and so I take Occam's razor to Him.

 

( But who knows, the time may come in my life, when he is again needed. Hope you won't think any less of me when I need something to lean on. )

[Danijel Gorupec]

( But who knows, the time may come in my life, when he is again needed. Hope you won't think any less of me when I need something to lean on. )

Interesting, I am thinking in a similar way although for me this is a scary thought. I always remember the saying "no atheists in foxholes" and I am afraid this could happen to me... So dearest people, remember me as man that was strong and rational, not as a human shadow that was weak and delusional. Every man should be remembered as when strongest in his/hers life.

[DrP]

We are what we are - no one should look down on you for praying to God imo. We are humans and naturally programmed to feel a bit of fear. It can keep an animal alive and is perfectly natural. Some of the more cautious of our ancestors would have survived better by fearing things and passed on their genes to us modern day humans and we still have instincts.

 

Maybe I will pray to God again too. It seems likely and pretty instinctive to me, especially as I have done it most of my life. I may fall to that in a time of need for personal strength. But, just because that works for me, doesn't actually make it real. There are explanations for it. It is organised religions that I kind of feel I wouldn't ever go back to.

[Phi for All]

Maybe I will pray to God again too. It seems likely and pretty instinctive to me, especially as I have done it most of my life.

 

I think you may find some parallels with kicking a bad habit like smoking (and no, I'm not saying faith is physically unhealthy). Your instinct is to reach for that cigarette, but after enough experience without them, that urge fades and hopefully the massive benefits of NOT smoking make you think less and less about why it was comforting.

 

When you start acknowledging the greater freedom to breathe, the clearer head, and no more bad taste in your mouth, you begin to appreciate a lack of belief in god(s).

[dimreepr]

We are what we are - no one should look down on you for praying to God imo. We are humans and naturally programmed to feel a bit of fear. It can keep an animal alive and is perfectly natural. Some of the more cautious of our ancestors would have survived better by fearing things and passed on their genes to us modern day humans and we still have instincts.

 

Maybe I will pray to God again too. It seems likely and pretty instinctive to me, especially as I have done it most of my life. I may fall to that in a time of need for personal strength. But, just because that works for me, doesn't actually make it real. There are explanations for it. It is organised religions that I kind of feel I wouldn't ever go back to.

 

 

I’ve come to think of god as a concept, designed, to lesson fear and allow people to forgive more easily (for those who lack understanding/knowledge).

 

I’ve also come to think of churches, originally, as a place of learning/school which later became the tool of those that failed to understand the true meaning of what was being taught.

 

Organised religion is subject to politics and personal ambition, and so is also subject to the corruption that can bring. There’s nothing wrong in belief, it brings comfort to so many people, what’s wrong is trying to use that belief in others for personal gain.

 

 

I think you may find some parallels with kicking a bad habit like smoking (and no, I'm not saying faith is physically unhealthy). Your instinct is to reach for that cigarette, but after enough experience without them, that urge fades and hopefully the massive benefits of NOT smoking make you think less and less about why it was comforting.

When you start acknowledging the greater freedom to breathe, the clearer head, and no more bad taste in your mouth, you begin to appreciate a lack of belief in god(s).

 

 

 

Not everyone is capable to rationalise/understand as well as the average member on this site; after all the greater freedom to breathe and a lack of that bad taste can equally come from true understanding or just a sincere attempt.

[imatfaal]

!

Moderator Note

 

Hijack split to its own thread.

 

For members' guidance - an argument against evolution (and a terribly misguided one at that) is not per se an argument for the existence of god; at best it is a challenge to a scientific theory and thus logically it can say nothing about alternative replacement theories.

 

No responses to mod notes please - report if necessary

 

[DrP]

A Beautiful Lie

 

Over Christmas and New Year I lost my Nan. She was my last grandparent and I was very close to her all my life. I loved her very much. I sat with her in hospital over the last few days as she was prey out of it on morphine. We knew she was going to go and she was very very accepting of it. She was always very practical. We had discussed christianity over the years, she said she believed it and was very humble and giving, but never really went to church (I dragged er there once or twice). She smoked and sweared a lot... she was the kindest person I knew. Over the last few years or so we didn't talk about god at all. I decided NOT to tell her about my atheism... I didn't want to frighten her... it didn't seem necessary.

 

Anyway... on the 2nd of January I got some alone time with her (we had been there for days)... I decided to pray for her. I prayed audibly so that she would hear. I though that if god was not real then it would not matter and if he was real then I would pray as honestly as I have ever done. I prayed that god would send his holy spirit to her to comfort her and to bring her peace, to keep her safe in love and joy and peace with him forever in love. I prayed for baptism in the holy spirit. She heard me pray and I could tell from her expressions and the sounds she uttered that she thought the experience was lovely. I could tell that she had experienced something similar to what happened to me when I was first baptised in the holy spirit. It was a beutiful experience when it happened to me and I hope and pray that it happened to her also. She passed away about 10 mins later when my mum and auntie came back... she died with her little head in my hands. She was amazing! I loved her very much.

 

Now - the beautiful lie is... that I wanted her to believe that she was being baptised in the holy ghost... I wanted her to feel the peace, the love, the joy, the super emotion that comes with that belief. I wanted her to believe and feel what I had done years before. I wanted her to accept what was happening with joy and peace and comfort. I believe that she did. ...... If it is true, then fantastic... I do not think it is true though... I think what happened to her was psychological, emotional and the result of years of conditioning and belief. Even so I am glad that it happened the way that it did and I would lie to her again in that same moment were we to relive it...

 

Thanks for reading friends... I still stand by everything I wrote in this thread. x

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dimreepr]

Many people believe, and good luck to them, who am I to deny that solace.

[DrP]

Many people believe, and good luck to them, who am I to deny that solace.

 

Quite - I think I gained strength and values from it all in the past.... a bit like Dumbo's Feather!

Edited February 25, 2016 by DrP

[Sirona]

Agree with Phi about your courage. Always remember that you're still the same person with the same heart, the same feelings toward others, and the same character. Not everyone in your life will recognize this, and some may shun you or even turn you away as a result of your conclusion, but it's true. Recall that you can always replace friends and change social groups and/or rituals, but you cannot replicate the value of being true to yourself. That's what matters. Big milestone. Best wishes!

 

Well said, iNow.

 

I know someone who is a scientist and also extremely religious. I have a lot of respect for him and I've always been able to accept he's a devout Christian and he's an exception because I know with anything else he relies on scientific evidence. At times I've thought he maintains his Christian identity because it's such an integral part of who he is; he's invested so much of his life in the church. His social life is limited mostly to church related activities and events. Also, he comes from a religious family and we know that there is a genetic component to religious inclination as well as environmental factors.

 

It's very difficult not only to admit you were wrong, but also to figure out who and what you are if you've spent most of your life identifying as a devout Christian. You've basically got to start all over again (in his case), not only in finding belonging in other friendship circles and communities but also discovering what else you are passionate about, new hobbies, social activities, etc. You could compare it to a divorce I suppose; it's very difficult to let go of something that is so integral to who you are, especially once you've invested so much into it.

 

However, I agree with iNow, you've got to be true to yourself first. It's even more difficult to live a life in denial and although the fear of rejection is strong, there is nothing more rewarding than being able to truly love and respect yourself and you can only achieve this through honesty I believe.

 

 

Edited February 27, 2016 by Sirona

[Robittybob1]

...... I have even experienced healing 'miracles' and answers to prayer and have 'felt' god's presence and holy spirit. I am a scientist.

 

.... Dr P.

 

 

Could you detail what you experienced as miracles and answers to prayer and what you put them down to today?