A hidden message encoded in the pattern of the Palenque lid?

[Akusius]

This is the lid in question:

http://mesoweb.com/Palenque/monuments/TI_sarcophagus/099.html

The position and configuration of the three-circled items ("triplets") and the two star symbols on the upper part of the lid seems remarkably special (which also contradicts the hypothesis about them serving only decoration purposes).

Isn't it possible that they actually form together a system to encode a hidden message?

More information on a separate page (as it requires several animations and images to decipher the code):

http://akusius.github.io/palenque/overview.html

Although I was not able yet to compute the exact probability for this interpretation, but it seems really unlikely that randomly placed items could produce such an ordered appearance.

Any ideas on this?

Thanks!

[Endy0816]

It may have some meaning but it probably isn't part of a secret code.

 

You can see it represented again here:

(dotted X shape lower right and again at the base of the world tree)

Edited November 25, 2015 by Endy0816

[Strange]

but it seems really unlikely that randomly placed items could produce such an ordered appearance.

 

I think this is an erroneous assumption. Most design involves use of symmetry and patterns. If you look at examples of Western art you can draw lines connecting significant parts of the image (eyes, limbs, people, etc).

For example: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-UNLIvLNVY34/UqLN4ilWsoI/AAAAAAAACmY/gRheufXKY-o/s1600/Reni+-+St+Sebastian.png(just the first one I found).

 

You can also see there is some rotational symmetry in the lines on that painting. So I wouldn't be surprised by, at least some of, the things you observe.

 

It would seem almost certain that there is a lot of symbolism in the illustration, most of which is now lost to us. If you look at the 16th century portraits, you will see all sorts of objects in the background such as a skull, an extinguished candle, coins, a wine glass on its side, a pocket watch, soap bubbles, a mirror, roses, a pearl necklace, a pipe, books, sculpture ... These all mean (or meant) something. Some of the meanings we can only guess at know.

[Akusius]

It may have some meaning but it probably isn't part of a secret code.

 

You can see it represented again here:

....

(dotted X shape lower right and again at the base of the world tree)

 

Yes, I'm aware that the figure in the Temple of the Cross includes some similar shapes ... (maybe borrowed from the lid?)

I think this is an erroneous assumption. Most design involves use of symmetry and patterns.

 

You can also see there is some rotational symmetry in the lines on that painting. So I wouldn't be surprised by, at least some of, the things you observe.

The initial layout does already involve a degree of symmetry, but (as I see) it is not really striking on itself:

However, after performing the three rotations and the reflection the obtained pattern is surprisingly symmetrical:

So it seems (at least to me), as if the designers already had this image in mind when placing the items.

Interestingly, if we move some items away, we can create an even more symmetrical initial layout:

But if we perform the same operations on it, the result is apparently less ordered:

As we can see, the outer edge is almost completely ruined. The inner part is maybe a bit more symmetrical in this case, but we could not execute the next step on this shape (moving the items toward the center).

So I think it is not only the initial symmetry multiplied by the rotations playing a part here, because it would not be sufficient on itself to produce the pattern.

The best would be to have some kind of geometrical framework for such encoding methods, and so one could analyze the pattern and compute the probabilities exactly with the help of it (unfortunately I haven't found anything suitable yet...)

(Also don't really see, actually which academic discipline would be responsible for such a unique encoding method, and so where to search for the required theories and algorithms...)

[Strange]

Also don't really see, actually which academic discipline would be responsible for such a unique encoding method,

 

 

Art history.

[Ophiolite]

However, after performing the three rotations and the reflection the obtained pattern is surprisingly symmetrical:

Surely, what would be truly surprising would be a lack of symmetry after three rotations. If you ever find a design that achieves that you may have something!

[Strange]

So it seems (at least to me), as if the designers already had this image in mind when placing the items.

 

Purely from the perspective of design, this is not surprising.

 

To show there is something special about this particular image, you would need to show that other designs of similar complexity (ideally from the same culture) did not have the same sort of symmetries.

 

Also, why would you expect to find a hidden message in this image when it was surrounded by text describing the person who was buried there, etc.

[Akusius]

 

Art history.

 

OK, but for art history all these items (triplets, star symbols, etc.) are simply "ornaments".

But it brings up the question, why then aren't they equally distributed over the entire lid? (all triplets and star symbols are located in the upper half)

And also, why were these supposed "ornaments" placed before and behind the other figures? As it is visible e.g. here:

[Strange]

OK, but for art history all these items (triplets, star symbols, etc.) are simply "ornaments".

 

Not really. Semiotics is an import apart of Art History; it studies the meanings of artworks as well as any purely decorative aspects.

 

 

But it brings up the question, why then aren't they equally distributed over the entire lid? (all triplets and star symbols are located in the upper half)

 

Gosh, I don't know. I am not an expert on Mayan art. But maybe because they represent celestial bodies? Or raindrops?

 

How much do you know about the symbolism and meanings in Meso-American art? Can you provide any insights into this?

[Akusius]

Surely, what would be truly surprising would be a lack of symmetry after three rotations. If you ever find a design that achieves that you may have something!

 

Symmetrical was perhaps not the right word...

What I wanted to say: the pattern is surprisingly ordered and well-arranged after the rotations (which I think is not at all self-evident).

We can see e.g., that on the outer edge each item is placed on a square, and each of them (and also each gap!) has a 3x3-size:

As I see, it is very hard to construct (even intentionally) a layout, which results in such a well-arranged end state (after the three rotations and the reflection).

To show there is something special about this particular image, you would need to show that other designs of similar complexity (ideally from the same culture) did not have the same sort of symmetries.

 

The fourth image above shows the same design with only minimal modifications: as you can see, after the rotations the outer edge is almost completely broken.

How much do you know about the symbolism and meanings in Meso-American art? Can you provide any insights into this?

 

As far as I know, the three-circled items are interpreted by the experts as simple decorations or gap fillers (without any symbolic meaning).

 

So they seem to have no real explanations for these elements and their positions...

[Acme]

It may have some meaning but it probably isn't part of a secret code.

 

You can see it represented again here:

(dotted X shape lower right and again at the base of the world tree)

Just a cursory search of Mayan symbolism returns the following link which gives the meaning 'to manifest' to the x shape. The symbols are writing, and IIRC different Mayan artists embellish the symbols in the same manner we use different fonts.

Mayan Symbols

 

As you note, the same x-shape appears in the OP's image and there is no reason to suppose it is other than writing there as well. The elaborate rearranging to get a symmetrical pattern seems to me no more sensible than rearranging this post to make a symmetrical arrangement of my uses of the word 'the'.

[Strange]

I was going to say that I thought some of the symbols in the picture looked like Mayan writing (but their writing system is so decorative, it probably takes an expert to be sure).

[Acme]

I was going to say that I thought some of the symbols in the picture looked like Mayan writing (but their writing system is so decorative, it probably takes an expert to be sure).

Yep. After all, the Palenque lid of the OP is a Mayan artifact from Palenque.

Palenque @ Wiki

 

I also recall some claims to codes hidden in other artifacts such as a jade mask, and they also used very elaborate multi-step overlays to [attempt to] make the case. Inasmuch as the conclusion drawn for the elaborate rearranging in the OP's second link is in regard to interstellar travel*, I take it as rather wishful thinking. One could concoct any message they wanted from any image with a suitable set of josslings.

 

*

The deciphered secret message:

The other solar system, which served as the starting point for the interstellar travel, consists of two stars (i.e. is a binary system), and is approximately three times as far away from us, as the nearest star (the Proxima Centauri).

PS Here's the Palenque mask jiggle. >> The Mosaic Mak of Palenque, Transformer

The author is Maurice Cotterell, and he does these 'decoding' rearrangements with a lot of Mayan imagery, including the Palenque lid of the OP. Here's his main page: >>The Works of Maurice Cotterell

Bestselling Author, Engineer and Scientist

Cotterell says of his decoding:

This short tourist guide, which contains one single coloured transparency (together with one coloured hard [paper] copy), allows readers to decode, for themselves, just one of the secret pictures contained in The Amazing Lid of Palenque, the carved sarcophagus lid of Lord Pacal from the pyramid of Inscriptions, Palenque.

 

It decodes the meaning of the pyramid and all of it's contents and shows that the Mayas understood the magnetic cycles of the sun and the higher orders of spirituality.

Edited November 26, 2015 by Acme

[Akusius]

Just a cursory search of Mayan symbolism returns the following link which gives the meaning 'to manifest' to the x shape.

 

As you note, the same x-shape appears in the OP's image and there is no reason to suppose it is other than writing there as well.

 

I think the dotted X-shape is different from the script X. We can see both of them on the lid (interestingly both times next to each other):

 

 

AFAIK, the dotted X is not part of the Mayan script. I have already tried to contact Dr. David Stuart to reassure this, but got no response yet.

The author is Maurice Cotterell, and he does these 'decoding' rearrangements with a lot of Mayan imagery, including the Palenque lid of the OP.

 

You're absolutely right, Cotterell did similar decodings. Actually one of his books was the main motivation that I personally started to study the Palenque lid (as it is disclosed on the story page).

I think, his decoding is much more fantastical than mine, because he uses the entire image without normalizing it into a coordinate system, etc.

In my solution only the triplets and the two star symbols are used, and they are placed into a coordinate system, which enables us to handle them mathematically, etc.

So IMHO, this deciphering is scientifically much more justifiable. But of course a serious peer-review would be really necessary to verify it. (Unfortunately I cannot find anybody to invest some time into the peer-review...)

One could concoct any message they wanted from any image with a suitable set of josslings.

 

OK, but the operations performed here are IMHO far from being arbitrary.

We barely follow the hints of the pattern step by step (the reflection step perhaps could be considered as somewhat subjective, but the others can be fully reasoned).

E.g. to bring the two dotted X shapes to cover each other, there is only one suitable operation: to duplicate the pattern and rotate the second layer.

And then we must perform another two rotations to cover each X, and so on, step by step, until the shape inside is complete.

---------------------------

Meanwhile, managed to apply a 3x3-sized grid to the pattern:

As we can see, the outer edge is perfect: each element is inside a 3x3 square, and also each gap has this size.

It would be great to compute somehow, how probable it is to get such a well-ordered pattern after the rotations (presumably not too much)...

Edited November 27, 2015 by Akusius

[Strange]

Why do you think there might be a hidden message? Why wouldn't it just be in the other text around the tomb?

[Akusius]

Why do you think there might be a hidden message?

 

IMHO there are too many coincidences in the pattern...

 

E.g. there is the first hint:

As you can see, if we rotate the second layer 90° clockwise, the two X-shapes cover each other exactly, and also the triplets inside start to connect.

How probable would be that without a prior design? (and this is only the first step...)

[Strange]

IMHO there are too many coincidences in the pattern...

 

Why does that imply "message" rather than "design"? (This seems to be similar to people who see something unidentified and irrationally assume "aliens".)

 

Why wouldn't it just be in the other text around the tomb?

Edited November 27, 2015 by Strange

[Akusius]

Why does that imply "message" rather than "design"? (This seems to be similar to people who see something unidentified and irrationally assume "aliens".)

 

We can call it design, message or secret code, etc., it is not really relevant. The point is, that the pattern apparently has (or might have) a deeper level to interpret. (Similarly as e.g. a painter hides extra information into the painting through symbols.)

 

Why wouldn't it just be in the other text around the tomb?

 

This is not a textual message, but a diagram to illustrate the distance relation of the two (or actually three) stars:

Textually it would be very hard to communicate such a message, because you have no words for solar systems, stars, distances, etc.

(And the Mayan script is already image-based, so it could be reasonable to expect a hidden message in the configuration of the geometrical figures.)

[Strange]

This is not a textual message, but a diagram to illustrate the distance relation of the two (or actually three) stars:

 

But why hide it? Why not include the diagram with some text that says "this diagram shows the distance between these stars".

 

Apart from that, there are the obvious questions such as: did the Mayans know the distance to these stars? If so, how?

 

 

Textually it would be very hard to communicate such a message, because you have no words for solar systems, stars, distances, etc.

 

If you are in a culture that discusses such things (as you suggest) then you would have words for them. And the Mayans had very accurate calendars based on detailed astronomical observations so they presumably had words for planets and stars.

 

And the Mayan script is already image-based ...

 

It may look image based but, like every other writing system, it represents the (sounds of) the spoken language. So anything that the designers could have talked about (e.g. solar systems, stars) could be written down.

[Akusius]

But why hide it? Why not include the diagram with some text that says "this diagram shows the distance between these stars".

Hiding the diagram behind a complex transformation process can make doubtless that it is indeed a message from a high-intelligence source.

BTW, there is also an unhidden diagram on the lid (which could be interpreted as the diagram of the Solar System):

But the distance diagram would have been to plain to include it directly (or rather the Solar System diagram too complex to hide it behind a transformation procedure).

Apparently the designers wanted to demonstrate their intelligence level by using that complex process, and assure us, that this is indeed a secret message.

 

Apart from that, there are the obvious questions such as: did the Mayans know the distance to these stars? If so, how?

 

I think, we should differentiate between the Mayans who carved the lid, and those who actually designed it (known maybe as the Gods of the Mayans?).

The common Mayans had obviously no perception of the Solar System or other systems (at least not at the level needed for such a message).

The (not human) designers were those who created the code, which is fully comprehensible without knowing any human language, only by using images and diagrams (similarly, as we constructed the Pioneer plaque to contact other civilizations).

And then the common Mayans carved this design onto the lid, with many visible errors, and without having any clue about the meaning of it.

[Strange]

Hiding the diagram behind a complex transformation process can make doubtless that it is indeed a message from a high-intelligence source.

 

Have you every done a cryptic crossword or other similar puzzle (i.e., one set by a highly intelligent person)? One of the key features is that once decoded, there is only one possible answer.

 

You have performed a number of arbitrary tricks and come up with something that you interpret as being a diagram of distance between stars. To me it looks like a plan for a new subway station. Or a serving suggestion for a meal. There is no reason to interpret it as you have. This is just as insane as the leap from UFO to "allienszz!!1!"

 

 

Apparently the designers wanted to demonstrate their intelligence level by using that complex process, and assure us, that this is indeed a secret message.

 

"Apparently"?

 

This is not at all apparent. It seems to be entirely in your imagination.

 

 

I think, we should differentiate between the Mayans who carved the lid, and those who actually designed it (known maybe as the Gods of the Mayans?).

 

What evidence do you have that it was not designed by the Mayans?

 

 

The (not human) designers were those who created the code

 

What evidence do you have for these non-humans?

 

 

similarly, as we constructed the Pioneer plaque to contact other civilizations

 

Except that that information was not hidden in a coded image. Hence my question: why hide it?

 

However, as this thread has now passed from a possibly interesting idea to complete lunacy, I will leave you to it.

[Akusius]

You have performed a number of arbitrary tricks and come up with something that you interpret as being a diagram of distance between stars.

 

Why arbitrary tricks? At each step we follow the hints of the puzzle and perform the only possible operation.

 

The diagram contains the two (or three) stars and also squares between them. How else could you interpret it than a distance diagram? Also how else would you identify a solar system (if not by distance)?

 

Except that that information was not hidden in a coded image. Hence my question: why hide it?

 

The identification of the Sun is encoded (and BTW distance-based).

[Endy0816]

Are you able to consider that you imagined the clues leading you to perform arbitrary rotations resulting in a pattern you are imagining meaning is attached to?

 

There's a difference between encoding and hiding something. Your remote uses encoded communications but nobody would claim it is being hidden.

[Akusius]

I myself would easily accept any good counterarguments (e.g. on a step-by-step basis).

But the only real objection was until now, that the Mayans could not have produced such an encoded message (which to contradict is exactly the task, so it could be considered a logical fallacy to treat it as an undeniable truth from the beginning).

Why not abstract from the source of this pattern instead? It could be handled, as if it were e.g. a modern-day puzzle presented in a magazine or similar.

And then if it proves unsolvable or the suggested solution is wrong, it's OK, I would accept it without problem.

But why to disapprove it immediately before any further examinations, just because "the Mayans surely could not have created such a code"?

[Strange]

But the only real objection was until now, that the Mayans could not have produced such an encoded message

 

As far as I can see, this is the only objection that hasn't been raised. (This logical fallacy is known as a "strawman".)

 

I'm not sure what the formal name for the fallacy of "jumping to ludicrous and unjustified conclusions" is.

 

Why arbitrary tricks? At each step we follow the hints of the puzzle and perform the only possible operation.

 

It is clearly not the "only possible" operation. How many different things did you try before coming up with your results?

 

What would persuade you that you were mistaken?

 

(And, most puzzling of all, why am I still responding?)