Schopolamine

[sciwiz12]

You might have heard of it, the devil's breath, schopolamine. If you haven't there's a documentary on Vice on YouTube that discusses the effects of the drug.

 

Now I'm still studying chemistry and haven't had time to get very deep into it yet, nor neurology yet. I'm getting to it, anyway, so here's my question, to the best of your knowledge are the claims valid?

 

For those who don't know, the drug supposedly kills you in even moderately high doses, but in sufficiently low doses inhibits activity in the frontal or prefrontal cortex rendering the victim unable to refuse commands and unable to form memories of the interval of time in which they are under the drug's effects.

 

If the claims are, to the best of your knowledge, valid, could you theoretically implant lasting suggestions into the minds of the victims? I mean either in the first dose or after multiple sessions and administrations?

 

Here's why I ask, if the base claims are true then this is unlike hypnosis under which a patient can resist commands that go against the person's nature. In theory if you could use the drug to implant long term suggestions as well, which follow the same basic principal that at least after multiple sessions the long term suggestions take precedent over the subject's will, and if anyone could get a hold of it, any person could potentially take over the world, or at least large portions of it.

 

I mean, say for instance I kidnap Tom, after multiple sessions Tom's will is supplanted and he believes he is my servant.

 

I then command Tom to kidnap Lisa and repeat the process. I then command Tom and Lisa to kidnap two new people and again, repeat the process.

 

Having brainwashed a certain number of people I could pool resources including human labor to grant myself greater wealth and power, which I can use to provide my victim's with training in various covert, martial, tactical, and technical areas.

 

Having sufficiently trained a sufficient number of victims I can turn my brainwashing methods into an almost industrial covert brainwashing factory. I can use my resources and victims to acquire more valuable human assets, filling the lives of influential politicians and businessmen with brainwashed sleeper agents.

 

I could then acquire those more influential targets and worm my way up to greater positions of influence and authority. I could then scale up my production even further, expand into other territories and regions, and eventually stage multiple simultaneous cous. Coup's? Anyway, you get the idea.

 

Theoretically if I were not discovered in time I could stage a hostile world take over in what? 40 years if I'm being conservative?

 

Now I'm not planning to do this (too poor to illegally import mind control drugs) but I want to know if it all checks out in theory?

[sciwiz12]

Bump?

[TheGeckomancer]

The problem is that until the study is done, which is too unethical to do you wouldn't know. But if it prevents long term memory from forming I don't see how it could allow long term suggesting. I have also looked into this devil's breath. Frankly, I don't buy it.

[John Cuthber]

If it worked,someone would probably have done it by now.

To me, that strongly suggests that it won't work.

[TheGeckomancer]

Maybe I am missing the evidence but I can't find any studies done that shows this has any of the effects people say it does. And the "victims" would be the worst possible sources of information. I have found a bunch of studies showing that this is a mundane drug prescribed for a lot of different health issues, and in larger doses can have roofie effects. But thats it.

[Strange]

You might have heard of it, the devil's breath, schopolamine. If you haven't there's a documentary on Vice on YouTube that discusses the effects of the drug.

 

Looks like you might have been mislead by a "documentary" on TV and mistaken it for factual reporting.

[DevilSolution]

No, it wouldn't have that effect. Your consciously unaware of what going on, so its analogous to being asleep.

 

To get into someones subconscious you must plant the seeds that they grow into sunflowers. Usually by questioning ones nature of reality enough you can slip those seeds into the holes you've opened up.

 

 

What?

 

Oh schopolamine , well its an amine so its probably gona have some effect and if its an amine its probably an alkaloid which means it probably definitely will have some psychoactive effects. I remember the the documentary, its far too open knowledge to be true. If you want some mind altering drugs just read up on MKULTRA and take an educated guess with what they were able to concoct.

 

I wonder wonder how bad the devils breath is?

[John Cuthber]

If you look into it, the stuff isn't as terrifying as the media say

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datura_stramonium#Etymology

 

funny how often that happens

[Xalatan]

Scopolamine is a Muscarinic antagonist, it's used for car sickness, maybe because the chemorecepror trigger zone signals in part using acetylcholine. You can be prescribed patches of it called scopoderm. Since it acts centrally, depending on dose it may be possible to get cns side effects but it may not be what it's indicated for.

[metacogitans]

No. Scopolamine is an anticholinergic, which is where it gets most of its psychological effects.

You could compare low doses of it to normal doses of doxylamine, but without being an H1 antagonist (an antihistamine).

The memory loss isn't that profound, and I don't know where you heard that it causes individuals to be unable to 'refuse commands', but that is simply false.

Edited February 7, 2016 by metacogitans

[Strange]

I think this "documentary" might have been an episode of CSI...

[Function]

Scopolamine is a Muscarinic antagonist, it's used for car sickness, maybe because the chemorecepror trigger zone signals in part using acetylcholine. You can be prescribed patches of it called scopoderm. Since it acts centrally, depending on dose it may be possible to get cns side effects but it may not be what it's indicated for.

 

We recently handled this matter in farmacology; more specifically, scopolamine does indeed have an inhibitory effect on muscarinic acetylcholine receptors; more specifically, however, here it acts specifically, and that is why it makes it suitable for motion sickness, on the neuronal pathways between the vestibular nuclei and the vomiting centre. Blocking the chemoreceptor trigger zone won't, as far as I'm aware of, prevent motion sickness

[Xalatan]

We recently handled this matter in farmacology; more specifically, scopolamine does indeed have an inhibitory effect on muscarinic acetylcholine receptors; more specifically, however, here it acts specifically, and that is why it makes it suitable for motion sickness, on the neuronal pathways between the vestibular nuclei and the vomiting centre. Blocking the chemoreceptor trigger zone won't, as far as I'm aware of, prevent motion sickness

Yep you are correct. It's the vestibular system that uses Ach (and histamine) signalling, which is why schopolamine and cyclizine work. CTZ uses 5HT, DA, and Neurokinin, so it's probably more relevant for antiemetics like ondansetron and domperidone.

 

Interesting piece of physiology here :')

[Function]

Yep you are correct. It's the vestibular system that uses Ach (and histamine) signalling, which is why schopolamine and cyclizine work. CTZ uses 5HT, DA, and Neurokinin, so it's probably more relevant for antiemetics like ondansetron and domperidone.

 

Interesting piece of physiology here :')

 

It's neurophysiology. Making it uninteresting is quite impossible

 

(Disclaimer: possible conflict of interest and bias in the statement above )

[Xalatan]

It's neurophysiology. Making it uninteresting is quite impossible

 

(Disclaimer: possible conflict of interest and bias in the statement above )

BTW you're so admirable going for neurosurg :,) Most of my friends would be more than happy with neuropsych or ophthalm. I guess treating stroke or glaucoma or depression just aren't enough, it's gotta be draining those haematomas and chopping out the pituitary adenomas huh. Back surgery looks insanely difficult!

[Phi for All]

I think this "documentary" might have been an episode of CSI...

 

This was the literary drug of choice for authors of spy novels in the 80s and 90s. Robert Ludlum used a lot on his spies, getting them to spill their secrets. Literary license strikes again!

[metacogitans]

No. Scopolamine is an anticholinergic, which is where it gets most of its psychological effects.

You could compare low doses of it to normal doses of doxylamine, but without being an H1 antagonist (an antihistamine).

The memory loss isn't that profound, and I don't know where you heard that it causes individuals to be unable to 'refuse commands', but that is simply false.

This post makes it sound like scopolamine isn't dangerous, and I just wanted to make it very clear that it is, in fact, poisonous and dangerous, especially when found in scopolamine-containing plants.

 

Safety is the most important thing; education on it shouldn't be a problem, as once educated, most people stay far, far away from it. If everyone was educated about it they would know how to avoid contact with it. I am of the opinion that plants containing it should be eradicated, except on preserved wildlands.