Music - a symmetry of noise

[petrushka.googol]

Is music a symmetry of noise ?

 

Our ear could well categorize noise as music and vice versa (depending on our tastes).

 

I think so.

[Strange]

What do you mean by "noise"?

 

In signal processing, it is an undesirable signal. So if you are trying to listen to a quiet conversation then it would be noise. But if you were trying to listen to the music, then the conversation would be noise.

 

On the other hand, noise can be defined as a random mixture of all frequencies (e.g. white noise). In which case it definitely isn't music.

 

And what does "symmetry of noise" mean?

[billiards]

If there were some reversable mathematical operation that converted "music" into "noise" then you could turn the "noise" back into "music". (I'm going to assume that's what you mean by symmetry.) However, that wouldn't mean that you could just take any random noise and turn it into music. So generally speaking I guess my answer would be "no".

[TheGeckomancer]

No. People play songs backwards all the time, symmetrical would have the same sound played forwards and backwards.

[DevilSolution]

By the vague definition of "symmetry of noise" then yes. Music generally has some sense of symmetry in terms of one instrument to another or frequency etc but its not always true.

[billiards]

One can't help but call "bullshit" to the questioner. It's as though he's said something profound "noise is the symmetry of music" -- but it is meaningless. I think that is the technical definiton of bullshit (at the extreme end of the spectrum).

[Strange]

"Here we focus on pseudo-profound bullshit, which consists of seemingly impressive assertions that are presented as true and meaningful but are actually vacuous."

Gordon Pennycook, James Allan Cheyne, Nathaniel Barr, Derek J. Koehler, & Jonathan A. Fugelsang, "On the reception and detection of pseudo-profound bullshit", Judgment and Decision Making 2015

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=22605

[billiards]

Yes, I was thinking of that paper. Great abstract!

[Sensei]

Is music a symmetry of noise ?

 

Our ear could well categorize noise as music and vice versa (depending on our tastes).

 

I think so.

 

Take any sample editing software.

They can learn you how to generate sample, instrument, sound that's pleasant to ears.

Each sample is volume (amplitude) at certain time. Currently stored in 16 bit signed integer, -32768... +32767 range. Or unsigned integer from 0..+65535,

If sampling frequency is 44100 Hz, each sample is send to speaker every 1/44100 s=22.675 us. Speaker is set to given amplitude-volume by electromagnets passing higher or lower or none current or reversed current (repelling from magnet, or attracting to magnet). If same sample like 65535 is send to speaker for some time, it has constant current flowing through electromagnet, and remain steady not moving in one state, and there is no sound, even though volume is at max. To generate sound there is needed to move it all the time. Back and forth. It pushes air around speaker. And it propagates further in air around device.

 

Programming approach:

take sinusoid wave, square wave. sawtooth wave, or other input signal (better repeatable).

output from it multiply by some value. It'll be amplitude of sound.

Change linearly amplitude in time from 0 to max, and sinusoid wave is going from 0 (no sound) to its maximum.

Then decay, then sustain stage (no significant change of volume).

Then release, drop volume in time to 0,

Initial sinusoid (or other) wave will be modulated.

 

And it's ADSR (Attack,Decay,Sustain,Release) model of generating samples/instruments/sounds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthesizer#ADSR_envelope

 

 

Noise, contrary to music, is random.

 

People call 'noise' music like techno,trance,metal, music they don't like, to discredit them. But they are not noise. They are not random.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Sensei

[petrushka.googol]

Maybe if you superimposed multiple noise waveforms and introduced an appropriate sampling rate you would get music.

[Curiatron]

Maybe if you superimposed multiple noise waveforms and introduced an appropriate sampling rate you would get music.

 

Are you saying that given sufficient time, superimposing random "waveforms" in a trial and error process will generate what someone may consider as music? There are similar examples, such as with text. I recall a certain idea that given sufficient time, a monkey hitting random keys at a typewriter will be able to create a great work, such as that by Shakespeare.

 

Am I missing the mark here? Did you have some sort of deeper idea that you're trying to present?

[ajb]

I have played with randomly generated music before: usually it sounds creepy and not particularly pleasant. Not much symmetry and not much that a delicate ear would call 'music'!

[Sensei]

I have played with randomly generated music before: usually it sounds creepy and not particularly pleasant. Not much symmetry and not much that a delicate ear would call 'music'!

Unplug antenna, turn on TV, and listen 'music of Universe'...

[petrushka.googol]

Unplug antenna, turn on TV, and listen 'music of Universe'...

Your model of TV is circa 1960..can I hear some static.

[petrushka.googol]

Canines have a much broader range of audio frequencies. I wonder how Bach might appeal to them (noise maybe).....

[TheGeckomancer]

Stop.

[petrushka.googol]

If the ear is treated as a decoder and the input logic is changed music transmutes to noise and vice versa.

Edited December 15, 2015 by petrushka.googol

[Ophiolite]

Since it's your thread and you set the ground rules, as it were, I'd just like to say that privet hedges do no benefit much from being smeared with marmite.