Help me, am I crazy?

[Confusi]

A friend sent me a you tube video titled " 200 proofs that the world is not a spinning ball"

Some of the guy's science seemed crackpot but there were a few points that really got me thinking. Discussion with friends and family haven't managed to solve any arguments.

I hope you sceince lovers can help me put some questions to bed;

 

1, Railways, roads, pipelines and bridges are all made perfectly flat/level. If the earth is spherical, they would have to allow a curvature of 8 inch per mile.

 

2, If you fire a cannon perfectly plumb without any wind, the ball will land back to earth close to the cannon. How could this be if the earth is spinning at 9Mps?

 

3, If an airplane set off west, it would travel considerably faster than a plane travelling east relative to the earth, as the earth spins in an easterly direction. Further to this, commercial liners fly at around 550-650 Mph, the speed of rotation is around 1000Mph, this would mean the planes travelling east would actually go backwards relative to the earth!

 

These are just a few of the items bothering me but if someone could explain this it should help me get my head around it (a bit!)

 

Thanks!

[DevilSolution]

1) The land is versatile, you wouldnt notice an 8 inch curvature within a mile and you'll find some places with bigger and some with smaller

 

2) The weight of the ball relative to the propulsion, 9Mps may seem fast, but to inanimate heavy object it counts for a fraction of the propulsion

 

3) It's an illusion, if you were to imagine the moon rotating around the earth, faster than the we span on our axis you wouldnt say its going backwards.

 

(BTW i don't know if any of these are the right figures, i havent checked your math)

Edited December 19, 2015 by DevilSolution

[Phi for All]

1, Railways, roads, pipelines and bridges are all made perfectly flat/level. If the earth is spherical, they would have to allow a curvature of 8 inch per mile.

 

That allowance automatically comes from laying all those things in sections. Your question assumes rails, asphalt, pipelines, and bridges are extruded in toto.

 

2, If you fire a cannon perfectly plumb without any wind, the ball will land back to earth close to the cannon. How could this be if the earth is spinning at 9Mps?

 

Even without wind, you still have an atmosphere, filled with air, which isn't nothing. If you fire the cannon into the atmosphere, the atmosphere is moving with us. Same with your airplane in question 3.

 

A friend sent me a you tube video titled " 200 proofs that the world is not a spinning ball"

[ALL] of the guy's science seemed crackpot

 

I fixed this sentence for you. One Physics class and all his 200 "proofs" show up as misunderstandings based on ignorance, set to video to fool those who also skipped Physics.

 

Do NOT post your video, if you were thinking that's a good next step.

[studiot]

 

1, Railways, roads, pipelines and bridges are all made perfectly flat/level. If the earth is spherical, they would have to allow a curvature of 8 inch per mile.

 

Having built all these things in my day I can assure you that civil engineers and even builders of large buildings have to make allowance for the curvature of the Earth. As I recall the new engine factory for the Ford Motor Company required a correction of around 10mm between its ends.

 

You will find the calculation details in any surveying book.

Edited December 20, 2015 by studiot

[Confusi]

Thanks for the replies guys!

"atmosphere, filled with air, which isn't nothing. If you fire the cannon into the atmosphere, the atmosphere is moving with us. Same with your airplane in question 3."

 

I was thinking about this, so the atmosphere spins with the planet but where is the cut off for this?

 

( I wasn't going to insult you by posting the video, I realise that it's not exactly scientific and I'm no crackpot, I just need some answers!

[Phi for All]

You know, there's something you can do very easily to show the Earth is NOT flat, with just a smart phone and two popsicle sticks. Call a friend in a different time zone, ask them to get the same size popsicle stick you have (or any other stick you and your friend agree are identical), and put the stick somewhere under the sun, sticking straight up at a 90 degree angle. Call your friend in a different time zone, ask him to do the same thing with his stick. Both of you take pics of the stick/shadow and compare.

 

If the Earth was flat, both shadows would be identical since they were tested at the same time.

 

I was thinking about this, so the atmosphere spins with the planet but where is the cut off for this?

 

The atmosphere extends out around 300 miles, but air pressure drops the higher you get, so most of it is about 10 miles from the surface.

 

( I wasn't going to insult you by posting the video, I realise that it's not exactly scientific and I'm no crackpot, I just need some answers!

 

Actually, I was convinced then that it was YOUR video. We've had a lot of people try to post their yootoob stuff so they can gain some credibility by having it on a mainstream science forum. I'm happy to be mistaken about that in this case.

[Confusi]

No, not my video and I have no alterior motive with relation to it, just something that got me thinking, what I need some sciency guys here!

 

 

extends out around 300 miles, but air pressure drops the higher you get, so most of it is about 10 miles from the surface.

 

 

....so if the "edge" of the atmosphere is 300 miles out, is it still spinning with the earth? if so, it would be extremely fast!

 

Another point he makes is that you would not be able to see islands across the water, one that I recall was in Greece and was 70miles away but could be seen nfrom the shore with the naked eye, and that distant buildings would appear to lean away.

 

(hope you dont find me troublesome)

Edited December 19, 2015 by Confusi

[Strange]

1, Railways, roads, pipelines and bridges are all made perfectly flat/level.

 

No, they are not.

 

 

2, If you fire a cannon perfectly plumb without any wind, the ball will land back to earth close to the cannon. How could this be if the earth is spinning at 9Mps?

 

Imagine you are on a train, travelling at a modest 200 mph. If you let go of your pen, it doesn't go flying down the carriage at 200mph, it falls straight down (from your point of view). Similarly, if you jump in the air, you won't be thrown against the back of the carriage at 200mph, you will come down where you land. Ditto canonballs.

 

 

3, If an airplane set off west, it would travel considerably faster than a plane travelling east relative to the earth, as the earth spins in an easterly direction. Further to this, commercial liners fly at around 550-650 Mph, the speed of rotation is around 1000Mph, this would mean the planes travelling east would actually go backwards relative to the earth!

 

This makes no sense at all. Flights in one direction are typically slightly faster because if prevailing winds. But apart from that, the speed of the plane relative to the ground is the same in both directions.

[Confusi]

 

Imagine you are on a train, travelling at a modest 200 mph. If you let go of your pen, it doesn't go flying down the carriage at 200mph, it falls straight down (from your point of view). Similarly, if you jump in the air, you won't be thrown against the back of the carriage at 200mph, you will come down where you land. Ditto canonballs.

With respect Genius, this indicates that the earth isn't spinning, unless the atmosphere is spinning at the same relative speed,

as does this,

 

the speed of the plane relative to the ground is the same in both directions.

...but I can't get my head around this, if the atmosphere spins at the same speed as the earth (faster as we get higher), then the outer reaches of the atmosphere are moving incredibly fast, but there seems to be no evidence of this.

 

Also, where I live,, the prevailing winds come from the west, but sometimes from the east. Being a keen sport kite flyer, I tend to pay a lot of attention to wind direction and I have often seen clouds moving in the opposite direction to the low level wind, meaning that wind can blow in at least two directions at the same time, whilst the outer reaches of the atmosphere are travelling at incredible speeds always easterly, surely this would cause some sort of uniformity in the upper reaches?

 

I know that if you drop a bullet at exactly the same time as you fire one from a gun, both bullets will land at exactly the same time, even though one of them could be two miles or more away. This would be true in all directions, N,W,E,S. Surely the E and W directions would vary between themselves and with the N and S!

Edited December 20, 2015 by Confusi

[studiot]

 

1, Railways, roads, pipelines and bridges are all made perfectly flat/level. If the earth is spherical, they would have to allow a curvature of 8 inch per mile.

 

 

Have you given up on this one?

Edited December 20, 2015 by studiot

[John Cuthber]

With respect Genius, this indicates that the earth isn't spinning, unless the atmosphere is spinning at the same relative speed,

as does this,

...but I can't get my head around this, if the atmosphere spins at the same speed as the earth (faster as we get higher), then the outer reaches of the atmosphere are moving incredibly fast, but there seems to be no evidence of this.

 

 

There is, it's the reason why hurricanes spin (and, in particular, why they spin in opposite directions depending on which hemisphere you are in).

The Earth's spin means that the equator is doing roughly a thousand miles and hour, but the poles are essentially stationary.

That velocity change as you go North or South is what sets the air spinning.

[Confusi]

 

 

Have you given up on this one?

I searched the internet and found as many posts saying they do as there were saying they don't. I'm looking for some concrete evidence so I've put a pin in it for now.

 

There is, it's the reason why hurricanes spin (and, in particular, why they spin in opposite directions depending on which hemisphere you are in).

The Earth's spin means that the equator is doing roughly a thousand miles and hour, but the poles are essentially stationary.

That velocity change as you go North or South is what sets the air spinning.

Thanks John, but this doesn't explain my question, it brings more questions!

I understand that this could cause hurricanes to spin in opposite directions ( a fact i'd never heard of before)

A man standing at the equator is travelling 1000Mph faster than a man at the North pole (the South pole is inexplicably out of bounds for everybody on earth), hmm, does this effect time/space?

 

anyway, please explain where this spinning atmosphere ends?

[studiot]

 

Have you given up on this one?

 

I searched the internet and found as many posts saying they do as there were saying they don't. I'm looking for some concrete evidence so I've put a pin in it for now.

 

If you don't ask questions and dont discuss, how are you ever going to learn from those that went before you?

 

Your first task should be to distinguish between level and straight.

They are not the same.

 

A level line is at right angles to the direction of gravity (i.e. at right angles to 'up' and 'down') at any point on the Earth's surface.

 

Obviously a level line will curve as up and down point to the centre of the Earth.

But there are other effects that also change this .

It is fascinating to learn that the discovery of the Himalays by western men was made because they realised that the plumb bobs in their theodolites were not hanging what they thought was 'down' during the 'great arc' survey of India.

The enormous mass of the Himalayas did (and still does) locally change the direction of gravity enough to draw the plumb bobs aside measurably.

 

Light rays travel in straight lines so optical equipment based on light, or these days lasers, will observe in straight lines.

For short distances up to about 100 metres there is little difference between a straight line as measured by an optical instrument and a level line, so no one bothers up to that point.

Beyond that length the difference starts to become important particularly as the factory example I gave incorporated flow lines several hundred metres long that required to be level, not straight.

Bridge decks are often precambered (bent upwards slightly) to offset the sagging in the middle due to gravity when the decks are in place and sometimes have curvature for other structural reasons. Neither a level line nor a straight one are normally the primary consideration.

Pipes are manufactured in straight lengths, but pipelines are suprisingly flexible and are normally laid level, In fact the their flexibility is what allows them to be laid on the bottom of the sea bed from a surface laybarge.

 

Finally another mechanism can affect all this, as happened on the Alaska pipeline (and elsewhere).

It is called refraction.

A light ray will change direction where it encounters a different medium to traverse in its travels.

You may have seen the sideways displacement demonstration through a glass block.

This can also happen if the air changes significantly aand the ray passes from a warmer to cooler layer or the other way round.

 

So steal a march on your mates and learn a bit about the world around you, rather than just guessing how it works like they are.

 

Edited December 20, 2015 by studiot

[Confusi]

 

If you don't ask questions and dont discuss, how are you ever going to learn from those that went before you?

 

learn a bit about the world around you, rather than just guessing how it works like they are.

 

 

Thats exactly what I'm doing studiot !

 

I'd never heard about the hymalayas effecting gravity like that, and your explanation of level is very enlightening and answers some of my other questions, thank you! As a carpenter, I use levels every day but never in the lengths we are talking about.

 

It does not explain the spinning atmosphere though!

 

To explain further, I'm not a flat earth believer but this video has me moving towards sitting on the fence, I'm an intelligent person but did not have a good education. I do like to listen to both sides and make up my own mind when I have the facts

 

We know that science has not always been played out on a level playing field in the past, even less so these days, so I will not blindly accept what it says unless it makes perfect, logical sense!

[Phi for All]

I do like to listen to both sides and make up my own mind when I have the facts

 

Popular media has made this sound like a reasonable, rational approach to every problem. Unfortunately, as is the case here, one of the "sides" is so sparsely populated that it's ludicrous to think the "controversy" is real. People who didn't learn science in school often look for a "quick fix" that will justify a lack of hard, rigorous, mainstream study. It's so much easier to embrace this crackpottery, insist it's correct (or at least poses a serious "threat" to conventional theory), and then pretend you're a skeptic and claim there are a lot of you.

 

A true skeptic would take a look at these questions, learn for himself what conclusions the preponderance of evidence leads to, and then side with the evidence. Skeptics do NOT remain on the fence long.

[studiot]

As a carpenter, I use levels every day but never in the lengths we are talking about

 

 

 

Welcome as a practical man.

Then you have come to the right place to ask technical questions and get sensible answers.

But please remember that some will immediately assume you are a scientist and that you have knowledge of theoretical science.

 

You might also be interested to learn that the Romans used levels to build bridges too.

They did not possess our curved modern spirit level vials but had to make do hollowed out channels and water.

Their levels were about 10 metres long as a consequence.

But using them they were the first to be able to able to establish were to start building the foundations for arches that would eventually meet in the middle and cross a valley.

 

 

To explain further, I'm not a flat earth believer but this video has me moving towards sitting on the fence, I'm an intelligent person but did not have a good education. I do like to listen to both sides and make up my own mind when I have the facts

 

Flat Earth and spinning Earth are two different things. They are only very loosly connected.

 

Flat Earth

We can easily observe that we live in a 3 dimensional world.

So it is excusable for the ancients to believe you could reach and fall off the edge of a flat Earth.

But today we know from experience that you can sail round it in any direction and only ever reach your starting point, never an edge.

But even the more intelligent of the ancients realised that a flat earth could not explain why a departing ship gradually 'disappeared over the horizon'.

 

Spinning Earth

Look up into the sky.

In the day you will see the sun 'moving across the sky'.

In the night you will see stars moving across the sky.

 

To explain this either the sun and stars are moving or the earth is moving.

But which?

 

Well firstly it is clearly cyclical because the same sequences are repeated over and over again.

So something is moving in a circle.

 

But wait.

Not all 'stars' follow the same speed round and round.

We call these planets, and these do not even follow regular paths like the stars.

Indeed one of the planets is named in ancient greek for wanderer.

 

If everything was fixed on or in a giant sphere circling round a stationary Earth, then how and why are these moving faster?

If the Earth is spinning then everything a very long way away would seem fixed in place as if on a giant sphere because any local movement they made would be tiny compared to their extreme distance.

You can see this same effect on Earth where distant object appear to move very slowly compared to their actual speed.

 

The local movement of those few things closer (planets) would of course be readily observable as a different movement.

[Phi for All]

It does not explain the spinning atmosphere though!

 

It's not easy to explain it to someone who can't see that if the atmosphere didn't spin with us, we'd be experiencing constant 1000 mph winds. It's not something you'd think you have to keep explaining in different ways.

[Confusi]

The reason I posted this topic on a science based forum was to get a scientific answer to my questions.

Of course I understand that if the atmosphere must spin with the earth, if the earth is indeed spinning at all! This is the root of the question.

 

Neither you, nor anyone else has answered my question of where the outer reaches of the atmosphere stop spinning, it's not been explained at all, how do you mean "keep explaining in different ways."

 

If my being here asking questions offends you, I'm happy to go elsewhere!

[Strange]

With respect Genius, this indicates that the earth isn't spinning, unless the atmosphere is spinning at the same relative speed,

 

I can't follow how you get to that conclusion. The moving train was supposed to be equivalent to the rotating Earth. On the train jumping (or throwing things) is not affected by the motion of the train (Galilean relativity, inertia, etc). Exactly the same is true about you being carried along by the rotating Earth.

 

...but I can't get my head around this, if the atmosphere spins at the same speed as the earth (faster as we get higher), then the outer reaches of the atmosphere are moving incredibly fast, but there seems to be no evidence of this.

 

The atmosphere is not solid.

 

Surely the E and W directions would vary between themselves and with the N and S!

 

Why?

 

Lets get back on our fast train, perhaps the shinkansen. Imagine you are in the centre of a carriage and there is a target at each end. When you fire a bullet at the front target, would you expect it to take a different time to reach it than the rear target?

[billiards]

There are many lines of evidence that the Earth is indeed a spinning ball. For a thorough investigation one could start with the field of geodesy.

 

A more abstract line of evidence comes from seismology (something I can personally vouch for having worked with the data and coded up simulations). Whenever there is a large earthquake the Earth "rings like a bell" (this motion can be decomposed into normal modes which are essentially the "tones"). In fact by studying these tones it can be deduced that the Earth is spherical -- what's more -- a close look at this data can even show that the Earth is spinning! Intuitively one can imagine that a tubular bell sounds different to a triangle, a cow bell, or a cymbal -- just by listening you could tell the shape of the "bell" being struck. This is the exact same concept as applied to the Earth. Whenever there is a large earthquake the earth "sounds" like a sphere. No other shape would sound the same.

[Phi for All]

Neither you, nor anyone else has answered my question of where the outer reaches of the atmosphere stop spinning, it's not been explained at all, how do you mean "keep explaining in different ways."

 

I'm not sure why you want to know this, since it certainly has no bearing on any of the problems you've proposed. It's not like there's a line of cutoff. It's the atmosphere, it's moving constantly, subject to friction and gravity like any matter. The lower atmosphere comes in contact with mountains, the upper layers are in contact with the lower layers.

 

If you doubt that the atmosphere is made of matter, look what it does to meteors and other debris that try to punch through it.

[Confusi]

 

it's moving constantly, subject to friction and gravity like any matter. The lower atmosphere comes in contact with mountains, the upper layers are in contact with the lower layers.

 

 

....and.. that's it?

 

That is your scientific answer?

 

I think you don't know but you just can't bring yourself to say that!

 

I would have thought this topic would produce a lively discussion but it seems that nobody knows. I have an inquiring mind, I'm not afraid of ridicule or of asking questions that others would think foolish, but, as stated earlier, I am not happy just to take someone's word on it, even if the majority think that way because the majority is always wrong!

 

None of you said a thing between you that has convinced me that the world is spinning, is there no evidence?, is this because the world is not spinning?

[iNow]

I'll just leave this here: http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2010/09/17/but-it-moves-how-we-know-the-e/

[Strange]

I would have thought this topic would produce a lively discussion but it seems that nobody knows.

 

Nobody knows what? The atmosphere is not a solid object and your question has no meaning.

 

 

None of you said a thing between you that has convinced me that the world is spinning, is there no evidence?, is this because the world is not spinning?

 

Here is an article summarising some of the main evidence: http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2010/09/17/but-it-moves-how-we-know-the-e/

 

Edit: iNow beat me to it!

Edited December 27, 2015 by Strange

[iNow]