Fasting and cancer etc..

[Arne52]

Hello!

Have a few questions about cancer. Would appreciate in depth explanation if possible since a family member was recently diagnosed with prostate cancer.

Do you know if it in theory would be possible to starve away cancer by fasting (Only water) over a longer period? Cancer cells depend on much more glucose? Or will the cancer cells get what they need anyway? Can they then switch to glutamine or something else and still spread?
In the studies i have seen they use short term fasting + chemo.

On a website they claim fasting on nothing more than such things that cancer don´t like - grapes, curcumin etc can cure cancer.
They also mention that mixing something like cancer like containing much glucose (Honey, suryp etc) with something they hate (Baking soda etc) will fool them to take in the glucose and then be killed by the baking soda.


Thank you

[EdEarl]

I'm sorry your family member has been diagnosed with cancer.

 

I do not know the answer to your question.

 

Many people on this site are reluctant to give medical advice.

Edited January 7, 2016 by EdEarl

[imatfaal]

!

Moderator Note

 

Horrible news about your family member - I really hope that their physician and medical science can help.

 

We will discuss this matter only in impersonal scientific terms - we really cannot give, nor allow our members to give, any individual medical advice.

 

Why not post a summary and a link to the studies you are referring to?

 

[EdEarl]

There are many good sources of medical information online. For example: WebMD prostate cancer diet and alternate treatments.

[StringJunky]

Alternative medicine is alternative for a reason: the evidence is very thin to non-existent. If it worked it would be a conventional treatment.

[Endy0816]

This is probably what you are referring to:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2815756/

 

Does suggest there could be some benefit from short term fasting(prior to a proper chemotherapy regimen).

 

Caloric restriction, is more specifically what you'll want to look into. Different ways to achieve this, though for reasonable purposes fasting would be the simplest. Make sure and consult with the doctor before starting anything though. Fine line between fasting and starvation.

 

 

On a website they claim fasting on nothing more than such things that cancer don´t like - grapes, curcumin etc can cure cancer.
They also mention that mixing something like cancer like containing much glucose (Honey, suryp etc) with something they hate (Baking soda etc) will fool them to take in the glucose and then be killed by the baking soda.

 

here's an article on grapes:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2728696/

 

Main issue is the "pass through the stomach" problem, with anything you consume.

 

 

In Phase I clinical trials, dietary curcumin was shown to exhibit poor bioavailability, exhibited by rapid metabolism, low levels in plasma and tissues, and extensive rapid excretion.^[16] Potential factors that limit the bioavailability of curcumin include insolubility in water (more soluble in alkaline solutions) and poor absorption.^[16] Numerous approaches to increase curcumin bioavailability have been explored, including the use of absorption factors (such as piperine), liposomes, nanoparticles or a structural analogue.^[16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curcumin#Pharmacodynamics

 

If it is anything normal in normal quantities, then it probably won't kill you, but could make you feel sick and not impact the cancer any. Again please discuss things with your loved one's doctor first.

 

May also want to check into clinical studies. There are new treatments coming out that show a fair amount of promise.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Endy0816

[Phi for All]

Depending on the chemo drugs used and other factors, reducing protein and caloric intake could jeopardize the patient's health, hampering the recovery process. Those drugs take their toll on healthy cells too, and it's important to eat right during an infusion procedure.

 

If the patient wasn't already on chemo, the fasting might make more sense (although I haven't seen much in support of alternative medicines in this area, mostly anecdotal stories about success, but all within statistical averages). If it were me, I wouldn't fast while also on chemo. You need to keep your immune system strong.

[StringJunky]

Depending on the chemo drugs used and other factors, reducing protein and caloric intake could jeopardize the patient's health, hampering the recovery process. Those drugs take their toll on healthy cells too, and it's important to eat right during an infusion procedure.

 

If the patient wasn't already on chemo, the fasting might make more sense (although I haven't seen much in support of alternative medicines in this area, mostly anecdotal stories about success, but all within statistical averages). If it were me, I wouldn't fast while also on chemo. You need to keep your immune system strong.

I imagine chemo would mess your appetite, resulting in caloric restriction anyway.

[hypervalent_iodine]

I imagine chemo would mess your appetite, resulting in caloric restriction anyway.

That's has always been the case in my experience with friends and family who have had cancer.

 

OP: just a comment about the honey / bicarbonate water. That's not how your body works. Moreover, I don't know that straight bicarb will do much to cancer cells.

 

Please be wary of what you read and trust in your doctors (though be insistent with them if something seems wrong). There are a lot of charlatans trying to push what seem like logical and straight forward solutions to cancer, but these people are liars and worse, they play knowingly with people's lives. There was a story here not long ago about a woman who claimed to have cured cancer with 'whole' foods and alternative therapies. She built a small empire out of it. People began to be suspicious when a promised $300k donation never made it to a charity and then last year it was revealed that she never had cancer in the first place. These people are the lowest of the low. Don't trust them.

[Phi for All]

OP: just a comment about the honey / bicarbonate water. That's not how your body works. Moreover, I don't know that straight bicarb will do much to cancer cells.

 

There should be a name for the syndrome where we imagine extremely simple solutions exist for complex problems. It's very prevalent these days, and it probably ties into our love of convenience, but I think it's more than that. The average person loves stories where common sense triumphs over intellect. And I'm not sure why.

 

 

 

But in the case of complex diseases, it's important to either dig in and learn about it to dispel your fears, or just trust that the medical professionals on your team have the most experience dealing successfully with them. By a HUGE margin. Alternative medicine can be very risky, and the folks who use it exclusively are a small percentage. Some complementary medicines, using the alternatives with conventional medicines, have at least been shown not to have any negative effects, and they're even approved by doctors in many cases. Alternatives like meditation, yoga, and massage are better than risky diets and hocus pocus, imo, and can be integrated seamlessly into many protocols.

[Arne52]

Thanks guys. Personally i do believe there are quite simple solutions but perhaps i am naive. Some people like Inuits, Hopis, Hunza etc have been reported to have very little cancer if true. But both conventional medicine and alternative survive on money flow. I doubt the major companies have any interest of curing cancer since their stocks would then likely crash.

 

There is this acid/alkaline theory of cancer. I saw an online poll where close to 90% of the people (~1700) who said they had cancer had a saliva pH below 7. 47% around 4,5. So we have tried to increase his pH + more and the doctor were surprised his pain was gone, just a small increase in psa without him starting the hormonal treatment yet. He is using medical Cannabis to.

So he is waiting to see what x-ray will show and if he is going to start hormonal and chemo.

[StringJunky]

Cancer is not a single disease with a single cause.

 

 

.... I doubt the major companies have any interest of curing cancer since their stocks would then likely crash.

 

Gilead Sciences acquired Sofosbuvir, the first quick-acting cure for hepatitis c with few side effects, for $11B.. Since 2013 they have generated 3 or 4 times that. They will make probably $20-30B this year and then the other companies will catch up with their versions by next year and their profits will start to soften. These drugs are $40 000 to $ 100 000 per patient. Sofosbuvir and it's variant is just about the biggest selling drug globally to date. Now, tell me again.....

[hypervalent_iodine]

Your body is extremely good at balancing and maintaining its pH. Making any meaningful change to the pH of your body overall would involve amounts of acid or base large enough to be toxic.

 

As for your comment about Inuits, this seems dubious. Firstly, how do you know that is true? Secondly, what is the average life expectancy of these people? Could it be true that these people have a similar cancer rate to other groups, but just aren't being diagnosed? Finally, a group of people with lower cancer incidence does not I think provide clues about how to treat cancer once you have it. Methods of prevention are not the same as you would use for treatment.

[CharonY]

Re Inuits: it is important to note that in Inuit the life expectancy is markedly lower than the rest of the population. E,g, in Nunavut, Canada the life expectancy of Inuit is at 67.7 for males and 72.8 for females. The averages for the total Canadian population is at 77.5 and 81.3, respectively. As cancer is typically highly correlated with age it is likely that this will skew statistics. However, a difference in diet seems to be correlated with different types of cancers.

 

Saliva pH can change due to a lot of factors, including gingivitis and periodontitis. These, in turn can be correlated with other health issues. But even if pH is diagnostic for cancer (which, to my knowledge, is not as it has a ton of false positive detections) it only means that it could be a symptom. I.e. changing the pH does nothing to the underlying disease. For example if you force yourself to stop coughing pneumonia would not vanish.

 

Finally one should add that companies rarely research in detail the biology of diseases. This is more fundamental research and is typically carried out in research institutions which are funded by public money. And those funding agencies are very interested in easy means to improve human health. Unfortunately, most of the time these things do not work well. On the positive side, as long as one does not neglect methods that have been shown to work, minor modification to diet are unlikely to do harm, either.

It is only when one goes alternative without any foundation (with Steve Jobs being a famous example) that things do not turn out so well.

Edited January 18, 2016 by CharonY

[Phi for All]

Thanks guys. Personally i do believe there are quite simple solutions but perhaps i am naive.

Naivete is just a form of ignorance, a lack of experience or knowledge or both. Easily curable with proper information, and THAT is where your system is breaking down. I'm very glad you're here to get the real science, and not just the pop culture cures that rely on arguments from incredulity ("There MUST be a simple cure!").

 

I think this trend to simplify is typical for humans. We want patterns we understand, and often complex problems require equally complex solutions, so we shake our heads and insist there must be something simpler. It's much easier to think about making a slight change to your diet to cure cancer than it is to face a very burdensome but effective chemotherapy protocol.

 

Some people like Inuits, Hopis, Hunza etc have been reported to have very little cancer if true.

Even if this is true, why would you expect there to be a couple of simple things you could emulate from their lifestyle that would give you this benefit? Wouldn't you actually have to BE an Inuit and live where Inuits live to take advantage of any cultural or geographical benefits?

 

But both conventional medicine and alternative survive on money flow. I doubt the major companies have any interest of curing cancer since their stocks would then likely crash.

This is a bit of a caricature of how it really works, a simplification that really doesn't inform or give a decent perspective. Again, the need to see all this simply, to reduce it to something you can understand and deal with, is very strong when you don't have the facts. You're relying on these caricatures of the system to teach you about it, and I don't think that's fair to yourself or those you're trying to help.

[Xalatan]

Cancer metabolism is one of those interesting emerging fields to keep an eye on. Is a cancer dependent on glucose? What would happen if you fast and starve the tumour of glucose? Will it switch to glutamine? How would glutamine be used in a cancer cell? Would it enter the Kreb's cycle as alpha ketoglutarate? Is the Kreb's cycle turning over in cancer cells? Some cancers have a block in the TCA, for example mutation in isocitrate dehydrogenase, succinate dehydrogenase, and fumarate hydratase. What does this mean? Does the TCA run in reverse? What's the role of HIF in all this? These questions are definitely interesting and require scientific investigation.