Twelve Olympians to twelve apostles - the transition

[petrushka.googol]

Why has there been a change in the idiom of religion from emphasis on apotheosis to compassion. This is evident in most modern religions like Buddhism, Islam, Christianity etc.?

 

I think modern religions contain less of folklore and more moral construct.

 

Do you agree ?

[Robittybob1]

That was a new word apotheosis! Google definition:

"apotheosis

əˌpɒθɪˈəʊsɪs
noun
1.
the highest point in the development of something; a culmination or climax.
"his appearance as Hamlet was the apotheosis of his career"
synonyms: culmination, climax, crowning moment, peak, pinnacle, summit, zenith, apex, acme, apogee, high point, highest point, height, high water mark
"his appearance as Hamlet was the apotheosis of his career"
2.
the elevation of someone to divine status.
"death spared Pompey the task of having to account for the apotheosis of Caesar""

 

Which meaning did you intend the word to have for it didn't seem to tie in with the thread title?

[petrushka.googol]

That was a new word apotheosis! Google definition:

"apotheosis

əˌpɒθɪˈəʊsɪs

noun

1.

the highest point in the development of something; a culmination or climax.

"his appearance as Hamlet was the apotheosis of his career"

synonyms: culmination, climax, crowning moment, peak, pinnacle, summit, zenith, apex, acme, apogee, high point, highest point, height, high water mark

"his appearance as Hamlet was the apotheosis of his career"

2.

the elevation of someone to divine status.

"death spared Pompey the task of having to account for the apotheosis of Caesar""

 

Which meaning did you intend the word to have for it didn't seem to tie in with the thread title?

The latter ....

[Strange]

This is evident in most modern religions like Buddhism, Islam, Christianity etc.?

 

Can you share this evidence?

[petrushka.googol]

 

Can you share this evidence?

 

Buddhism does not advocate belief in a God but lays down "The Four Noble Truths".

 

Islam lays down those activities as "haram" which it considers morally objectionable eg)drinking, gambling, adultery.

 

Christianity has morally charged parables and moral constructs like "So you sow so you reap" and "Love thy neighbour as thyself."

 

Ancient Greek religion on the other hand is an attempt to fuse human personality with war and divinity through the personalities of gods and demi-gods. eg)Iliad

[Strange]

OK. That is clearer. I thought you were comparing modern versions of Buddhism/Islam/Christianity with older versions of the same religion, rather than with other religions.

[petrushka.googol]

OK. That is clearer. I thought you were comparing modern versions of Buddhism/Islam/Christianity with older versions of the same religion, rather than with other religions.

 

I thought that the title of the OP was clearly defining the scope of the discussion. The twelve Olympians are the twelve gods of the Greek pantheon (mapped to the zodiac signs, i think) and the twelve apostles are of course.... the twelve apostles...barring Judas (for obvious reasons).

 

Another interesting change is the movement from anthropomorphism to humanism.

[Strange]

Oh. I thought it was some cryptic reference to the way we make heroes of sports stars...

[imatfaal]

Oh. I thought it was some cryptic reference to the way we make heroes of sports stars...

 

Which of course is what we do now that our religions no longer provide

[Phi for All]

 

Which of course is what we do now that our religions no longer provide

 

Are you suggesting the existence of a Skipper of the Gaps? The Quarterbackdidit?!

[imatfaal]

Are you suggesting the existence of a Skipper of the Gaps? The Quarterbackdidit?!

 

Yes - I have a horrible feeling I am. After reading yours I went on a 20 second google-jaunt for a representative photo of a sportsman in a god-like pose. I started with Jonny Wilkinson - English rugby player who had the requisite greek-god looks.

 

 

This photo (even sans face) summed it up - but my instinct to look up "Sir Jonny" was doubly vindicated when I noticed the film documentary about his part of England's World Cup winning squad was titled "Building Jerusalem"

 

Jonny, Martin, et al made everything all right for just a little while.

 

 

His glory, his epic song, his life is the new homeric tale, his kleos remains and will persist.

 

Ok so all a bit tongue in cheek - But then I was in Brixton last night and the outpouring of grief for the Bowie aka Thin White Duke aka Aladdin Sane aka Ziggy Stardust (hmm he has avatars for different parts of his work - seems pretty godlike to me) was immense and the loss tangible. PopStars and SportingHeroes - better than Warriors and Kings in my opinion

[Phi for All]

Awesome. It's nice of the fans offering to pull the spear out.

[Prometheus]

Why has there been a change in the idiom of religion from emphasis on apotheosis to compassion. This is evident in most modern religions like Buddhism, Islam, Christianity etc.?

 

I think modern religions contain less of folklore and more moral construct.

 

Do you agree ?

 

If anything Buddhism developed in the context of severe ascetic practices what would become Hinduism: it was a change from asceticism to compassion.

 

I'm not sure how much Greek thought influenced the early development of the Abrahamic faiths, my understanding is that traditions like Zoroastrianism had more influence. Perhaps Hammurabi's codes of law also influenced their development? Not sure, but I would treat the Abrahamic faiths separately to the Vedic faiths.

[imatfaal]

 

If anything Buddhism developed in the context of severe ascetic practices what would become Hinduism: it was a change from asceticism to compassion.

 

I'm not sure how much Greek thought influenced the early development of the Abrahamic faiths, my understanding is that traditions like Zoroastrianism had more influence. Perhaps Hammurabi's codes of law also influenced their development? Not sure, but I would treat the Abrahamic faiths separately to the Vedic faiths.

 

Not sure if "Greek thought" could have influenced Judaism in its early stages that much. Moses probably pre-dated the Fall of Troy, the epics ie Iliad surrounding that period of history only really solidified a few hundred years later, and did not really form the basis of a national/tribal founding mythology for another 2-300 years. The archaic and oldest section of Greek civilisation was around 4-500 years after Moses was supposed to have lived. Abraham is postulated to have been around the time of Hamurabi.

[CharonY]

Indeed. Traditionally the Hellenistic religion is placed around 300 BC, I am not sure about the timeline of contemporary writings, but Abraham was supposed to be living around 2000 BC. From the viewpoint of OP would then Judaism be grouped to ancient religions?

And while we are at it, what is the timeline? When we got contemporary writing on the respective religion? Or the first evidence of it being in an organized form?

 

For that matter, when we use Hellenistic traditions as ancient, why is Buddhism grouped as "modern"? The founder was estimated to have died ~ 500 BC and the 1st Buddhist council has held shortly after. In fact there are claims that Hellenistic monarchs were in contact with Buddhist equivalents of missionaries. So by all accounts, if the Hellenistic tradition is ancient, so is Buddhism.

And then what about Hinduism? The premise is somewhat confusing, but I think it is safe to say that it is also very wrong.

 

That being said, the expression of religion and their influence on everyday life have obviously changed not only between religions, but also within with societal changes.

Edited January 12, 2016 by CharonY

[petrushka.googol]

Indeed. Traditionally the Hellenistic religion is placed around 300 BC, I am not sure about the timeline of contemporary writings, but Abraham was supposed to be living around 2000 BC. From the viewpoint of OP would then Judaism be grouped to ancient religions?

And while we are at it, what is the timeline? When we got contemporary writing on the respective religion? Or the first evidence of it being in an organized form?

 

For that matter, when we use Hellenistic traditions as ancient, why is Buddhism grouped as "modern"? The founder was estimated to have died ~ 500 BC and the 1st Buddhist council has held shortly after. In fact there are claims that Hellenistic monarchs were in contact with Buddhist equivalents of missionaries. So by all accounts, if the Hellenistic tradition is ancient, so is Buddhism.

And then what about Hinduism? The premise is somewhat confusing, but I think it is safe to say that it is also very wrong.

 

That being said, the expression of religion and their influence on everyday life have obviously changed not only between religions, but also within with societal changes.

 

Ancient Egypt also influenced Greek thought. Plato is said to have narrated stories about his ancestor Solon who visited the temple of Neith (equated with Athene) at Sais Egypt. Thoth was equated with Hermes and Ptah with Hephaistos. These predate Buddhism by almost 1000 years.

Edited January 13, 2016 by petrushka.googol

[CharonY]

That does not make it clearer. There are cross-influences between Hellenistic and Buddhist traditions, there are influences of ancient Egyptian in the Hebrew bible which. Obviously there are strong source connections between all the Abrahamistic traditions. Considering the history connecting these religions, how do you define ancient vs modern?

Or do you merely mean those that do not have a large amount of followers anymore? But since you mentioned influences, this does not seem to be the case, no?

Edited January 13, 2016 by CharonY

[kisai]

I can only think of one human in literature that accomplished apotheosis: Ganymede, Zeus' cupbearer. Zeus basically thought he was hot and kidnapped him. I can recall other stories of ascension to divinity, but there's usually the element of being a demigod or related to a god first.

[Prometheus]

I've always liked the contrast between the story of the fall of man and the Promethean myth (does it show?). Both can be interpreted as attempts to godhood.

 

In the former Eve and Adam eat the forbidden fruit so that they may know good and evil, as do the gods :

 

“For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

 

 

 

In the latter myth Prometheus awards mankind the fire of the Olympian gods (i.e. the knowledge of the gods) which pisses off Zeus.

 

I find it interesting that in one myth the challenge to the One True God is an excessively punished mortal sin, while in the other myth the challenge to the strongest god is seen as a boon to mankind. One tradition demands repentance the other rebellion.

[CharonY]

In both defiance of the gods carries a heavy penalty, though. Another interesting parallel is that the Roman adaptation of the Helleinistic tradition has incorporated legitimacy of the ruling class via religion, a similar logic used especially in the Christian culture.

[Prometheus]

And that's another interesting parallel: Pandora, the first woman, was given to man as part of that punishment.

 

From her is the race of women and female kind:
of her is the deadly race and tribe of women who
live amongst mortal men to their great trouble,
no helpmates in hateful poverty, but only in wealth.

 

 

Hence both traditions cast women as the temptresses that divert men.

 

I've heard that Islam places equal blame on Eve and Adam in the Fall myth as opposed to the Christian myth which emphasises Eve sinned first (in Paradise Lost Milton has Adam nobly eat the apple just so Eve won't be alone in her punishment).

 

 

And because we're also talking Buddhism (still don't know why though): the Buddha was asked by his aunt to accept her into the sangha. He refused three times and only acquiesced after his right hand man (Ananda) basically badgered him into it, and then only if women followed additional rules. The Buddha admits it's just as possible for a woman to attain enlightenment and his initial reluctance is never really explained as far as i know.

[kisai]

In both defiance of the gods carries a heavy penalty, though. Another interesting parallel is that the Roman adaptation of the Helleinistic tradition has incorporated legitimacy of the ruling class via religion, a similar logic used especially in the Christian culture.

 

That's pretty universal to all cultures. If you examine Egyptian mythology, for instance, the ruler of the Gods changes according to which city rules Egypt at the moment. The Zhou dynasty legitimized their rule by making huge bronze pots and saying Heaven and the ancestors favored them because of their pots. The creation of the Daibutsu, a giant iron Buddha, was originally a scheme to keep the Emperor in power during a time of famine and disease.

 

 

Why even today, in Atlanta, Georgia, you can switch on the radio to Christian Fundamentalist programming. Among their prayers is an sincere plea for America's leaders to listen to and implement God's will, i.e. act according to the mandates of the religion.

Edited January 15, 2016 by kisai

[Prometheus]

 

The Zhou dynasty legitimized their rule by making huge bronze pots and saying Heaven and the ancestors favored them because of their pots. The creation of the Daibutsu, a giant iron Buddha, was originally a scheme to keep the Emperor in power during a time of famine and disease.

 

I don't know about that particular example, but generally the Chinese concept of gods and heaven is not directly comparable to the Abrahamic concepts. The mythos is more working in union with the way of Heaven to achieve something on Earth, as opposed to strictly following the law set down by a God. You can work against the way of Heaven, but you'll likely find it difficult even if the gods don't directly try to hinder you. Although i'm finding understanding Confucian thought a little difficult, so i could be wrong (but i married into a Confucian family so gotta keep trying).

 

What is the same is that people interested in power-mongering will use religion to meet their ends.