- FEEDBACK- One of the most powerful , yet varied tools in our experience !

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Just a thought :-

 

So it could be argued that the secrets lie, not so much in the explosion or in a great Big Bang? Or, it's just impossible to get at those secrets there . But in the 'control systems' that seem to 'feed back' in such a way as to 'sculpt' a system into an immensely accurate and fruitful performance. Perhaps these secrets are more easily accessible elsewhere?

 

If that is the case , then , for instance , the secrets of quantum physics , and many other cosmological and other general scientific, mysteries, that we may be looking for generally or in the first seconds to the power (minus 43 of a second) as in the most ginormous explosion of energy ever (Big Bang ) , is not necessarily the best place to look?

But rather , we could be looking at the control feedback systems, particularly for those hidden secrets. It may be possible that they can be ferreted out . These could be in existence all around us. Perhaps for the universe to grow into, however/whatever it is growing in to. Examining hidden feedback loops, in the same way we examine deeply buried DNA in genetic spirals .

 

Possibly ?

 

Ps ( Now he suggests it , after we spent all that money ! )

 

Mike

Edited January 17, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Here is an example of the maths used in - Feedback Control Theory - taken from Wikipedia .

( See maths example 2/3 rds. Down the Wikipedia entry headed ... " PID Controller " )

 

Ref Wikipedia :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_theory

 

And ...------------Here is the span of types of control possible :- ----------

 

Examples of control systems

Automation

Deadbeat controller

Distributed parameter systems

Fractional-order control

H-infinity loop-shaping

Hierarchical control system

Model predictive control

PID controller

Process control

Robust control

Servomechanism

State space (controls)

Vector control

Topics in control theory

Coefficient diagram method

Control reconfiguration

Cut-insertion theorem

Feedback

H infinity

Hankel singular value

Krener's theorem

Lead-lag compensator

Minor loop feedback

Multi-loop feedback

Positive systems

Radial basis function

Root locus

Signal-flow graphs

Stable polynomial

State space representation

Underactuation

YoulaKucera parametrization

Markov chain approximation method

Other related topics

Automation and remote control

Bond graph

Control engineering

Controlfeedbackabort loop

Controller (control theory)

Cybernetics

Intelligent control

Mathematical system theory

Negative feedback amplifier

People in systems and control

Perceptual control theory

Systems theory

Time scale calculus

Applying Laplace transformation results in the transformed PID .

 

So the range for variations stabilised during feedback control systems is quite vast .

 

Link for Quoted above . PID feedback Controller :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller

 

It is probably true to say that much of these systems stem out of Engineering of one sort or another . But the models and principles probably apply equally to many other disciplines , though not yet applied in detail .

 

Mike

Edited January 17, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[studiot]

Why only feedback, Mike?

 

Why not feedforward?

 

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=feed+forward+error+back+propagation

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Why only feedback, Mike?

 

Why not feedforward?

 

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=feed+forward+error+back+propagation

Do not know about 'Feed forward ' you will need to explain !

What is the basic principle ?

Mike

Edited January 17, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

What Possibly could be an area of study : ,

( if the idea of feedback being a major player in universe creation )

 

If we take this fictitious MODEL example in the framework of an electronic MODEL control system . Processing Major power/energy amplification . Of red INPUT .( including minor fragments of green , yellow and blue , now obliterated in the Big Bang (the red , which in reality could be Big Bang energy at a very early time ( un obtainable as too distant past . Less than 1 sec to minus 43) . The process under some form of positive feedback produces the universe we now see. Perhaps the system of feedback , or the remnants of the feedback system remains , ( not obliterated as very peripheral to the main explosion , fragmented , somewhere , in our existing universe . The Main Processor does not survive , as it is the very hot expansion system itself .

 

A proportion of the output signal is fed back through a feedback system , to the input allowing major amplification of Red , universe at large , and ingredients for universe construction from the smallest particles fields upwards and otherwise . This side return system survives in bits in the universe to be discovered . The pre 1 sec to the minus 43 , remains un obtainable , BUT fragments of the feedback systems , remain yet to be discovered ? Just maybe ? ( fragments of yellow ,blue , green , )

 

Below :- Schematic of model of universe expansion from / Big Bang

 

 

Below :- Schematic of expansion of the universe including main expansion including feedback system ( Red , including feedback loop components (yellow ,blue, green ) ) up to 300,000 years from start . Time of recombination .

 

Later fragments of feedback loop only ( yellow blue green )

 

Edited January 18, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

 

I do not , for a moment mean to pass disrespectful , aspersions as regards professionals who know far more of their subject than I ever will. I am in fact asking such experts or professionals for possible examples of where it is possibly feedback showing itself . As all have expressed . It is all over the place . That is fine , I , we and everybody , is saying a similar story .

 

My point is NOT whether it exists but , how is it showing itself . And because it is harder to spot than plain " cause and effect" , have the professionals any examples , that may be enlightening, if only to me and maybe others. I remember the first time I heard ' El Nineo ' explained with its effect on world wide weather , I found it intriguing. I think that is an example of feedback ( I think ) .

 

The issue, I think, is that you show up making pronouncements rather than asking questions. I can see how that could be irksome. In your first four posts, it looks like there were no questions being asked.

 

————

 

In many instances feedback is not some separate issue that needs to be included. It is already part of the model. If it's not included, then it isn't a very good model.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

.

.

An illustration of an actual electrical / electronic , signal and power amplifier as used by a Rock and Roll band. Complete with a feedback system . If by discussing it in simple terms , it will be seen where some of the feedback system resides.

 

Imagine a famous Rock and Roll band , in a live performance , in a public auditorium . Say back in the early 1970's , 1980's 1990's

Thousands of screaming teenagers and ageing rockers in the audience. The music is really loud, I mean deafeningly loud. Young girls are fainting , the audience are waving there hands side to side .some people are sitting on the shoulders of others , swinging a toy from side to side . The man on the mixer panel is doing his best to balance serious entertainment with safety ( so that people are not permanently deafened. )

 

 

It's now 30 or 40 years later, the people in the audience are like me , in their 70's . The band has probably dissolved by now . The amplifiers are thrown away by now and out of reach.

 

However it just so happens the sound mixing man kept the top of his mixer panel , as a memento of his experience with the band , and it happens to have an EPROM memory chip that recorded peaks and troughs of the sound system for each performance . ( and Thus characteristics and information about the main amplifier itself , even though now lost or out of reach )

 

O.k so the main amplifier has gone , but a record of how the main amplifier responded in feedback terms is still in evidence on this Memory chip .

 

Could this not show as an example of what happened at another place, another time ( now inaccessible ) . That information about the Main amplifier device can be obtained from part of the separate feedback system . Yes some of the fixed simple internal feedback component controls lay in the core amplifier , but the system operation can be found in a historical record ,in the external control unit feedback device ( still available for examination )

Does this not have good pointers for Geological, cosmological, climatological , quantum behaviour etc research . In other words not looking for the main function, but rather for the separate feedback device .

 

 

What I have described above is similar to lately looking at DNA chains for evidence rather than the skeleton or fossil .

 

So what I am asking ,is , would it not make a useful endeavour , to look for features of the main device under consideration , not necessarily by looking at the main device ( because this may not be possible due to size, age ,time , or unavailability ) . But by looking at the separate feedback system , which may be more available , smaller ,bigger, more compact , current in time etc etc ?

 

Mike

Edited January 21, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos