Ten oz Posted August 16, 2016 Posted August 16, 2016 He definitely lost the popular vote. By law he won the Electoral College. In reality, the vote in Florida was so insanely close that I'm not sure a definitive answer is reasonably possible, and who "really" won there is heavily dependent upon what ballots are counted, what is considered a valid/in-valid ballot, etc. We had an election that was too close to call, so the people responsible for calling it called their preferred candidate the winner and Bush became President. Republicans in the State block legitimate recounts from happening and there were dististrict (primarily those of color) that were never properly counted do to the state attorney locking looking everything down once media (FoxNews) called FL for Bush. Assuming those districts voted along the same lines as other districts with the same demographics and a real recount happened Gore won FL.
iNow Posted August 16, 2016 Posted August 16, 2016 This should be brought up as often as any other gaffs he made. I'm retired and watch CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News many hours per day, and I never once heard about the Mussolini quote.Just as an FYI: http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/donald-trump-s-history-praising-dictators-n604801 http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/trump-mussolini-is-mussolini-what-difference-does-it-make-633021507605 http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2016/02/28/donald-trump-mussolini-tweet-orig-vstan-dlewis.cnn http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/04/opinions/anti-semitic-trump-tweets-opinion-ruth-ben-ghiat/index.html And here... well, oh wait... suspect you're quite correct and it probably wasn't on Fox "News." My bad.
MigL Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 You know, Airbrush, that Mussolini quote is a variation of Milton, in Paradise Lost "Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven". Somebody should investigate this. There are too many similarities between Lucifer, the Anti-Christ, and D. Trump. ( yu know I'm just being sarcastic now, although... ) 1
DrP Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 QUOTE: "An election that was too close to call".. I'm sorry - but there is no 'too close to call' about it - there are a definite number of slips with votes on them... they get counted and the one with the most wins... how can there be any 'calling' it either way? It is a count of votes... (I'm not interested in hanging chads etc... there are rules in place for counting votes and not counting votes that are spoiled or spazzed up, so there should be no calling, just counting). I'm sure he's a great guy to have a laugh with on the golf course... if you can overlook his racism and bigotry, but as POTUS? As an outside observer I seriously hope not.
Airbrush Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 (edited) Exactly why does it mean "he prefers one day of violence over 100 years of peace"? Good question, let's examine the quote. "It is better to live one day as a lion than 100 years as sheep". Do you notice how Trump thinks it is better to live as a lion for ONE DAY than for 100 YEARS as sheep? A lion lives violently killing other animals to survive. Sheep that have 100 YEARS of life (which is much longer than their actual life span) grazing in the lovely, green meadows are at PEACE. Would YOU rather live one day like a lion or 100 years like sheep? Remember at the end of the day the lion dies violently, because how else can a lion die in one day? Many people can die in one day due to weapons of mass destruction. Is that a good enough explanation? I'm sorry that I am not an expert at politics, but in my opinion this quote is potentially worse for Trump than the "second amendment people" doing anything about Clinton AFTER she gets elected. This quote surfaced in early July and since then I watch a lot of cable news (far more than 10 Oz does) and I heard the second amendment people gaff a dozen times and NEVER heard the Mussolini quote not even once. Doesn't Trump come across like the Anti-Christ? Can anyone find parallels between the classic Anti-Christ of the Bible (Trumps favorite book of all time) and Donald Trump? ....the people who most need to hear the message tend to be the ones who aren't willing to listen or simply don't care. I disagree. Many undecided voters may be swayed by the quote, IF it was pumped up in the media more. The actual interview makes me want to vomit. Edited August 17, 2016 by Airbrush
geordief Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 (edited) I would not wish to give any moral support to anything Trump says but the quote does seem reasonable in its normal context. The sheep are an analogy for a conquered people , I have always thought. So the Yanks shook off the Brits rather than opt for a quiet life. Many,doubtless of the Jews in Auschwitz would have given anything to avoid going like lambs to their end. It is a noble aspiration to fight against a superior (unjust) force even when it may seem hopeless. I recall the Italian who told his captors quite recently (in Iraq?) "This is how an Italian dies!" Of course a peaceable existence is also a noble aspiration but so can be the aspiration to "live one day as a lion" Trump is so full of it I doubt he has the generosity of spirit to entertain any real notion of sacrifice. but he is not unique in this regard. Edited August 17, 2016 by geordief
Airbrush Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 The quote makes sense only when accompanied by the nice qualifiers you presented. Like the Jews going peacefully like sheep into the death camps. The quote says "live 100 years like sheep" means LIVING takes place for 100 years, not a bad thing eh? I'd like to live in peace for 100 years, wouldn't you? "Trump Digs Coal" "Trump Digs Nuclear War" That is the logical message that comes out of the quote. Do I need to go on CNN and make my case for them? When the NBC reporter questioned Trump about if he wanted to be associated with Mussolini, noteworthy is Trump didn't care if Mussolini said it. That means that Mussolini is not so bad. It was painfully stupid the NBC reporter could not think a little and follow up with a few more questions about the ACTUAL WORDS! My amateur observation is the figurative meaning of the quote is very negative, deeply EVIL, inhuman, and insane. Anyone who thinks the quote is "a very good quote" is certifiably insane.
zapatos Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 Good question, let's examine the quote. "It is better to live one day as a lion than 100 years as sheep". Do you notice how Trump thinks it is better to live as a lion for ONE DAY than for 100 YEARS as sheep? A lion lives violently killing other animals to survive. Sheep that have 100 YEARS of life (which is much longer than their actual life span) grazing in the lovely, green meadows are at PEACE. Would YOU rather live one day like a lion or 100 years like sheep? Remember at the end of the day the lion dies violently, because how else can a lion die in one day? Many people can die in one day due to weapons of mass destruction. Is that a good enough explanation? If that is your explanation, fine. But I don't think you are going to convince many people the one equals the other. Seems like quite a stretch to me.
Airbrush Posted August 17, 2016 Posted August 17, 2016 (edited) The quote is essentially the motto of ISIS. It's better to live one day as a suicide bomber and be martyred fighting for a just cause, than to live 100 years subjugated by the infidels. Edited August 17, 2016 by Airbrush
zapatos Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 The quote is essentially the motto of ISIS. It's better to live one day as a suicide bomber and be martyred fighting for a just cause, than to live 100 years subjugated by the infidels. The quote is essentially the motto of the Navy Seals. It's better to live one day as a warrior fighting for freedom than to live 100 years subjugated by our enemies. The quote is essentially the motto of Benjamin Franklin. It's better to live one day fighting for essential liberty than to live 100 years without liberty. 2
Airbrush Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 (edited) The quote is essentially the motto of the Navy Seals. It's better to live one day as a warrior fighting for freedom than to live 100 years subjugated by our enemies. The quote is essentially the motto of Benjamin Franklin. It's better to live one day fighting for essential liberty than to live 100 years without liberty. Very interesting. Those mottos are similar, very nice, refined, and rational. I agree they are very good quotes. However, the quote from Mussolini has a crude, ambiguous edge to it. That ambiguity appeals to Trump. "One day like a lion is better than 100 years like a sheep." Nothing elevating about freedom or liberty, just law of the jungle, just kill and die in one day. And that is roughly the life story of Mussolini who was a very poor philosopher, but good enough for Trump. Edited August 18, 2016 by Airbrush
geordief Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 Well that is supporting evidence for Trump being crude and ridiculous but we already know this and to use tendentious arguments against him may serve to strengthen his support. As was advised to Clinton do not get into the gutter with him as it is his preferred territory.
Delta1212 Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 The problem with a lot of inspirational quotes is that you can read a lot of different things into them, and what the quote represents depends heavily on who and what you think is drawing inspiration from it. For instance: That applies equally well to someone living under the Third Reich standing up to Naziism and someone living in America who is a white supremacist. The lion quote is similar. The Mussolini connection gives it a different context than the Captain America quote, but on its own, it can apply equally well to anyone who is fighting for what they believe in instead of bowing to the will of someone else and letting things happen in order to keep themselves alive. Whether that is a good or bad thing depends entirely on what it is the person fighting believes in and what it is that is going on around the "sheep."
Ten oz Posted August 18, 2016 Posted August 18, 2016 All this discussion about qoutes reminds me how vacuous our choices often are. Slogans and short qoutes exist to stir feelings rather than explain or educate. I have a friend who is constantly on twitter debating politics. He isn't well informed however so he is constantly tweeting me asking is if this or that policy is true or which programs do or don't work as intended. When I respond he always asks me to shorten my response. Says they are too lengthy to be effect on twitter. Anytime math is involved he just says "nevermind". Trump has suceeded in part because as a society we have spent the last few years training ourselves to receive information 140 characters at a time. No explaination, no nuance, no supporting facts, just quick statements that are entertaining. I don't just mean twitter. I have friends that text me several times a day yet haven't spoken to me on the phone in several months. During the GOP primaries candidates would point out that Trump was lying. He would claim to have never said something he had said, he'd get called on it, and then Trump would just insult the person and the next day all the memes all over would reflect how Trump laid the smack down on whomever. His entertaing insults holding more weight than the factual charges laid out against him. One liners, solgans, simple qoutes are power tools of persuasion. Of course this is nothing new. Slogans over knowledge is why leaders like Hilter burned books and the current Republican party constantly complains about college professors. Less is more when facts are on your side. Hillary Clinton is no showman. She doesn't have "very good" qoutes and slogans. Rather she have dry boring explanations based on a thorough understanding of government. People can't be bothered, not when the Walking Dead just announced another major character will die. 2
iNow Posted August 19, 2016 Posted August 19, 2016 (edited) ^ tl;dr Hillary Clinton is no showman. She doesn't have "very good" qoutes and slogans. Rather she have dry boring explanations based on a thorough understanding of government.There are show horses and workhorses. In this cycle, we have very clear examples of each (can anyone guess which is which?) People can't be bothered, not when the Walking Dead just announced another major character will die.Oh, please don't be Glenn...not again. <groan> Edited August 19, 2016 by iNow
Airbrush Posted August 19, 2016 Posted August 19, 2016 (edited) The quote is essentially the motto of the Navy Seals. It's better to live one day as a warrior fighting for freedom than to live 100 years subjugated by our enemies. The quote is essentially the motto of Benjamin Franklin. It's better to live one day fighting for essential liberty than to live 100 years without liberty. Then Trump should have quoted directly from the Navy Seals or Ben Franklin. The Mussolini quote was not a gaff or poor choice of words, it shows how he thinks, it remains a road map to Trump's mind. He likens himself to the lion, not someone "fighting for freedom" or "fighting for essential liberty". We all know Mussolini was fighting AGAINST freedom. Sheep are eaten routinely, but they also live a considerable time contributing their wool for our benefit, a noble occupation. And the "sheep" in the quote is said to live for "100 years" which cannot happen if the sheep is eaten anytime soon. So does the logical argument L > S (Lion > Sheep) ring true? Then this morning I heard Trump express his teleprompter "regrets" AFTER he qualifies his regrets by making it sound reasonable for him to choose the wrong words, like anyone else in his position would have done the same when faced with as much adversity as he has. Edited August 19, 2016 by Airbrush
zapatos Posted August 19, 2016 Posted August 19, 2016 Then Trump should have quoted directly from the Navy Seals or Ben Franklin. What makes you think he didn't? Mussolini was not the first person to say it.
Airbrush Posted August 19, 2016 Posted August 19, 2016 (edited) Why do you so easily equate all those quotes? They are NOT the same, only similar. The Seal Team, Ben Franklin, and the Captain America quotes are ALL substantially different from the Mussolini quote. Mussolini said nothing about freedom or liberty or truth, or standing for what you believe in. Just a lion lives for one day and the sheep lives for 100 years (L > S logically), lions kill quickly and the lion in the quote dies at the end of one day (just like Mussolini) and the single sheep goes on living for 100 years. Do you have the EXACT Seal Team motto or the exact Franklin quote? Slogans matter and a short quote can be analyzed. Any psychologists out there have any opinions about the M quote? Edited August 19, 2016 by Airbrush
dimreepr Posted August 19, 2016 Author Posted August 19, 2016 Why does it matter so much? The Trump, almost certainly, didn't give it so much thought. Slogans only really matter when they have some sort of gravitas, the lack of which in this case, would suggest it's standard Trump gibberish.
geordief Posted August 19, 2016 Posted August 19, 2016 It would be interesting if it was indeed a quote that Trump knew came from Mussolini and had seen fit to bestow us with without mentioning "by the way this is from Mussolini but it is still a good quote" But I doubt we will ever know (or really wish to know ) how he latched onto this admittedly buffoonesque quote and so do not really have anything substantial to beat him with on this occasion. Smears can rebound.
Airbrush Posted August 19, 2016 Posted August 19, 2016 (edited) It matters so much because the M quote is amoral. This means Trump is also amoral, because he did not NOTICE that the M quote is amoral. Be scientific and objective. Don't bring your subjective bias, your prejudice to the quote. Nothing about freedom, liberty, truth, or the American Way in the M quote. The quotes are VERY different even though they sounds similar. "Lion = good, and sheep = bad" is your prejudice. Lions are what lions do, they kill anyone to eat, also a male kills other males for mating privileges, and he even kills baby lions so the mother will mate with him. Trump imagines himself the lion without thinking too much about it. Lions are not good and sheep are not bad. But the sheep in the quote is not an ordinary sheep. It is A sheep that magically lives for 100 years! It is not being slaughtered for food every day, perhaps has its wood sheered every summer, but what's wrong with that? And Trump didn't even notice that! I need to send this theory to Rachel Maddow, if she will only listen. Edited August 19, 2016 by Airbrush
zapatos Posted August 19, 2016 Posted August 19, 2016 Why do you so easily equate all those quotes?Why do you so easily equate it with ISIS? Do you have the EXACT Seal Team motto or the exact Franklin quote?Do you have the EXACT ISIS motto? Mussolini said nothing about freedom or liberty or truth, or standing for what you believe in.Mussolini also did not say "he prefers one day of violence over 100 years of peace". Yet you take his quote, apply that meaning to it, then attribute that same violent stance to Trump. That is neither logical nor fair. It matters so much because the M quote is amoral. This means Trump is also amoral, because he did not NOTICE that the M quote is amoral.By your reasoning I am a crook because I did not recognize that Nixon was a crook. Be scientific and objective. Don't bring your subjective bias, your prejudice to the quote.Right back at you slick. Nothing about freedom, liberty, truth, or the American Way in the M quote.Nothing about preferring one day of violence over 100 years of peace in the M quote.
Airbrush Posted August 19, 2016 Posted August 19, 2016 (edited) Please provide for us the motto of Seal Team and the Ben Franklin quotes so we can decide how different they are from the Mussolini quote. I don't know anything about those other quotes, so could you please point us in that direction? The quote from Captain America has morality throughout. You made the fallacy of equating the motto from Seal Team and a supposed quote from Franklin with the Mussolini quote which is obviously amoral, it just says "lion good, sheep bad". I never intended to equate the M quote for the ISIS motto. I suggested a probable motto for ISIS is something like "better to live one day as an ISIS suicide bomber than 100 years under the subjugation of the infidels." I don't have a clue what the real ISIS motto is and I still doubt you can support your claims. You first brought up the Seal Team and Ben Franklin. It's all new to me. EDIT: I just looked up "Navy SEALS" in Wikipedia and it says the mottos are: "The only easy day was yesterday", and "It pays to be a winner." Neither of those sound amoral to me. Nothing about preferring one day of violence over 100 years of peace in the M quote. If you read the words it says "better to live one day like a lion" (how does a lion live for one day? According to science it kills as much as it can to eat and other reasons, and then dies at the end of the ONE day.) "...than to live 100 years like A sheep" (how does a single sheep live for 100 years? It is a magical sheep that suffers not. You are not reading carefully but rather suppose that the M quote is the same as the Navy Seal motto (which I looked up on Wikipedia is totally unrelated see my previous edit above) and we don't know anything about Ben Franklin. The Captain America quote (thank you for that) sounds moral to me, don't you agree? Edited August 19, 2016 by Airbrush
Phi for All Posted August 19, 2016 Posted August 19, 2016 If you read the words it says "better to live one day like a lion" (how does a lion live for one day? According to science it kills as much as it can to eat and other reasons, and then dies at the end of the ONE day.) "...than to live 100 years like A sheep" (how does a single sheep live for 100 years? It is a magical sheep that suffers not. You are not reading carefully but rather suppose that the M quote is the same as the Navy Seal motto (which I looked up on Wikipedia is totally unrelated see my previous edit above) and we don't know anything about Ben Franklin. The Captain America quote (thank you for that) sounds moral to me, don't you agree? Come on, you're assigning a very specific meaning to the quote, and then berating zapatos for not adhering to that meaning. It can easily be argued that living a day as a lion simply means living free, being your own boss, afraid of nobody even if it's just one day, as opposed to living like everyone else who is afraid and needs someone else to protect them for their whole lives. It doesn't have to be about killing, or magic, or eating, and I think that's what zapatos has been trying to say. Your interpretation isn't the only one. We should move on. 2
zapatos Posted August 19, 2016 Posted August 19, 2016 You made the fallacy of equating the motto from Seal Team and a supposed quote from Franklin with the Mussolini quote which is obviously amoral, it just says "lion good, sheep bad".You made the fallacy of equating the motto from ISIS with the M quote, and you made the fallacy of equating the M quote with preferring one day of violence over 100 years of peace. The only reason I brought up the Seal Team and Franklin was because if you are going to make up equivalences with the M quote to make it sound BAD, I can just as easily do the same to make it sound GOOD. I never intended to equate the M quote for the ISIS motto.Really? Then perhaps you shouldn't have said "The quote is essentially the motto of ISIS". The bottom line here is that you equated "It is better to live one day as a lion than 100 years as sheep" with Trump "prefers one day of violence over 100 years of peace". You then went on to defend your assertion against Trump by describing sheep running around in lovely green meadows. It doesn't work. You are criticizing Trump with false allegations. In this regard you are no better than him.
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