gravity waves for communications [Answered: NO!]

[hoola]

Could they eventually be used for communications if the source of gravity's functionality is tied to the orbits of virtual particles, and generate waves by distorting these orbits directly? Didn't Shawyer have some claims last year of creating thrust, with microwaves? From the claims he made, if seems he was generating something similar to an artificial gravity within a region of the test cavity.

[The Angry Intellect]

uhm.

 

I may not be the smartest person alive, but most of what you said seems to me like you were just throwing random words together.

 

virtual particles? distorting orbits? eh??

 

I have no idea if gravity could one day be manipulated to be used as a form of communications. Possibly...

 

But from what a little grey birdie once told me, they already use "light" as a form of communications.

 

They encode data into light streams coming from stars as a means to send their information/communications between planets & galaxies.

 

Not exactly sure how they do this, something along the lines of "attaching" modified particles into the streams of light coming from a star and using the stars own energy to propel the particles through out the galaxy.

 

Once a stream is received they do the same by replying with the nearest star to send the reply back towards its source, thus they have a powerful transmission without the needs of artificial power to produce a strong enough transmitter.

 

Don't worry, most people will think this is nonsense or argue that it's not possible. I'm just passing along what the little grey birdie told me.

 

At any given moment, this particular race can communicate with each other across the galaxies without a less technologically advanced race being able to "pick up" on their signals, because they usually look for other types of radiation that they think would be used instead of the light coming from stars them selves.

 

Just some food for thought. Humans are not looking in the right areas for signals, even if they managed to figure out that it's light from stars which is hiding the transmissions, they would still need to figure out the encoding techniques, then decipher the stream... Since they don't use 1's & 0's or English, I'm sure their signals will go a very long time without being detected.

 

P.S. The light bouncing off the moon at night (when there is no direction sun (our local star)) is also bouncing the hidden signals to Earth. Still not sure about gravity, I'm assuming it would require an enormous amount of energy to do this as opposed to using light.

[hoola]

I was only using the distorted orbit idea as one possible way that gravity might manifest...since the mechanism of gravity is not well understood, my thinking is that some method will be avialable to communicate using G waves once the actual mechanism is found, whatever it turns out to be. Some might think that it is technically impossible, if so, what are the reasons for thinking so...thanks

[Strange]

Could they eventually be used for communications if the source of gravity's functionality is tied to the orbits of virtual particles, and generate waves by distorting these orbits directly? Didn't Shawyer have some claims last year of creating thrust, with microwaves? From the claims he made, if seems he was generating something similar to an artificial gravity within a region of the test cavity.

 

The waves are minute, barely detectable. And generated by orbiting black holes. I don't think communication based on that is very practical.

since the mechanism of gravity is not well understood,

 

It is very well understood. Hence the ability to (a) predict the existence of gravity waves, (b) build a detector and ( c) know precisely what generated the waves detected.

[Phi for All]

I remember reading somebody postulating that gravitons could be used to create a pulse like a drumbeat. Iirc, it was being proposed as a method of contacting parallel universes, assuming gravity was a force that might be common to all of them.

 

I still don't see how it could be done, considering these waves were created by enormous BHs orbiting each other 75 times a second just to produce these weak signals. How do you make that practical? Even for a single universe, I don't see this as a practical way to communicate.

[Strange]

This questions seems to have come up a lot in various places. I'm not sure why; the only advantage seems to be the fact that nothing can block the signal. But given the practical difficulties (basically impossible with foreseeable technology) it probably isn't worth thinking about.

[The Angry Intellect]

I agree with what has been said above by others.

 

To be able to generate strong enough gravity waves to be used as a forms of communications would require far more energy than anything we could imagine.

 

Probably have to harness all the energy of all the stars in our own galaxy to do this... Think about the size of Earth... its tiny, and we are yet a tiny speck on that tiny planet, even a far more advanced alien race would have difficulties harnessing enough energy to do this. Why bother, when you can use a trillion x a trillion fold less energy to produce something like a laser or radio waves for communications.

 

Before we bother trying to use gravity to interfere with another dimension or parallel universe, we first need to know if they even exist and fully understand how they function in relation to our own universe before trying to communicate between them, since we don't even know if other alien races exist within our own universe let alone our own galaxy.

 

Doing that would be like a single cell organism trying to build a rocket to get to the centre of the galaxy... not really going to happen any time soon or even in the foreseeable future.

 

I'm guessing you watched the movie "Interstellar"... Even being able to do what was shown in the movie, creating a wormhole that when you go through it to another part of the universe, you then find & fall inside a black hole only to be thrown into some super-wacky space/time distorted area where you can magically use your hands to press on visible gravity waves to produce an effect back on Earth many years prior.... That's a complete load of crap times infinity then multiplied by space cake and dusted with diamond bacon pieces. Not gunna happen.

[hoola]

I am not talking about other universes, just this one. And, gravity's simple visible effects are not to be confused with mathematical calculations that support it's appearance in this universe...those are more delicate elements, and once understood, then the problem is solved..the solution could be to have a supercomputer set up with the program that mimics the actual formula , then alter the computers programming subtly to enlicit the desired physical change within a specific region. I don't think any power gains, or perpetual motors could be made, as the computer's energy use should always be larger than any predicted gains offered by manipulating gravity..although velocity gains may be more closely tied to the theoretical possibilities allowed by the formula, and less affected by the power use issue, perhaps allowing faster than light velocity...

Edited February 21, 2016 by hoola

[Mordred]

Umm no. Definitely not even close to reality. First off gravity doesn't travel faster than c. Secondly the sheer power requirements to manipulate spacetime is immense. (Google the theoretical Alcubierre drive) coincidencally requires exotic materials.

 

The sheer power requirements vs the lack of gain. (Not faster than electromagnetic). Makes gravity completely impractical for communication.

 

Remember gravity is the weakest of the 4 forces. The strong and weak force are too limitted in range.

 

Electromagnetic has the best range/power ratio. Best part is were already using it

Edited February 21, 2016 by Mordred

[hoola]

first off, I never implied that gravity waves traveled faster than C..secondly, the power consumption requirements are mere details to be worked out at dinner and will quickly be made more efficient, as the required computer goes from ENIAC size to that of the apple watch you might be wearing..and that gravity is the weakest of the 4 forces is meaningless..and who brought up the weak force? But lastly, the "not even close to reality" put-down is pretty cool...as my idea is to alter reality "closely" on the microscopic scale within a small region, so you kinda stumbled into a backwards truth there, my dear Mordred...Uum..definitly yes

Edited February 21, 2016 by hoola

[Strange]

first off, I never implied that gravity waves traveled faster than C..secondly, the power consumption requirements are mere details to be worked out at dinner and will quickly be made more efficient, as the required computer goes from ENIAC size to that of the apple watch you might be wearing..

 

Computing power is not really the problem. We can already simulate the behaviour of systems that generate gravitational waves (hence all the information about the recent detection).

 

The challenge is getting hold of a couple of neutron stars or black holes and swinging them around in a controlled way.

 

 

as my idea is to alter reality on the microscopic scale within a small region

 

Apart from the fact that I don't know what 'alter reality' means or how you would do it, doing something on a microscopic scale is not going to generate detectable gravitational waves.

[Mordred]

perhaps allowing faster than light velocity...

first off, I never implied that gravity waves traveled faster than C..secondly, the power consumption requirements are mere

Then you should be careful what you type on the first.

 

Power requirements isn't a mere detail in practicality.

Edited February 21, 2016 by Mordred

[hoola]

power requirements are the simplest thing to do if you can afford the bill...as in the computer you are using. More expensive is the data feed...so the analogy holds and actually should have a theoretical max efficiency, such as in any engine...so much pseudo-gravity can be created per KW input. The first computer driven warps (using this more direct method) might need as much power as the eniac, but it seems shawyer has shown that at least some distortions in space can be made with simple klystron microwaves, and with reasonable efficiency for such an early technology...

how can reality be altered? Develop a computer to "look at" the universe it is in, and within a finite geometric space it will, by pre-programming, create a similar but subtly different logic set condition, mirroring closely the tool set of the standard model, via subtly altered algorithms, one of which determines gravity function. The beauty of this model is that the altered logic set will disappear when the power is turned off and the affected region returns to standard model dynamics. Another rule may be is that the CPU of the computer has be physically outside the affected area or else the altered logic would skew the process with a feedback loop between the two. What is the Shawyer engine doing? on the surface it develops thrust, but that simple observable implies an alteration of "standard" reality beneath, within the test zone. You might say that the best i could hope for is all just simulation, but that represents an early step. I have been describing a "co-generative" type of warpage with the computer. With microwaves, the influence seems more of an "interference" upon standard dynamics, hence much easier than the computer, analogous to the tin can telephones vs. modern radio...

Edited February 22, 2016 by hoola

[swansont]

You've mention Shawyer several times now without context. Could you fix this, please?

[Janus]

first off, I never implied that gravity waves traveled faster than C..secondly, the power consumption requirements are mere details to be worked out at dinner and will quickly be made more efficient, as the required computer goes from ENIAC size to that of the apple watch you might be wearing..and that gravity is the weakest of the 4 forces is meaningless..and who brought up the weak force? But lastly, the "not even close to reality" put-down is pretty cool...as my idea is to alter reality "closely" on the microscopic scale within a small region, so you kinda stumbled into a backwards truth there, my dear Mordred...Uum..definitly yes

The power consumption requirements are not mere "details". Let's work out an example. Let's assume that you have somehow arranged to get two 1e15 kg masses in orbit around each other at a distance of 0.001 meters apart. Such an arrangement will output ~104 million watts in gravitational waves at ~1.8 mhz. Fine and good. But this is just the carrier signal. In order to use this for communication, This signal has to be modulated.

If we use frequency modulation and we want to send a audio signal, you will have to vary the carrier by up to 20,000 hz. The only way to vary the frequency of the carrier is to change the period of the orbits of our masses, and the only way to do that is to change their orbital distance. Changing the orbital distance requires changing the total orbital energy of the system, which is energy you have to provide. The energy difference in our orbitng system that equates to a 20,000 hz difference in the carrier works out or be in the order of 9e20 joules. If that change takes place over one second (which would result in a slow information transfer rate), that mean a power input of 9e20 watts. So you would be inputting 9e20 watts to produce a 104 million watt signal. This is where the relative strength of gravity compared to the other forces come in; You need to provide a great deal more energy to move the masses in order to produce gravity waves than you can get in outputted gravity waves.

[Strange]

how can reality be altered? Develop a computer to "look at" the universe it is in, and within a finite geometric space it will, by pre-programming, create a similar but subtly different logic set condition, mirroring closely the tool set of the standard model, via subtly altered algorithms, one of which determines gravity function.

 

You might be surprised to find out that running a computer program does not alter reality. I suspect you have watched The Matrix one too many times ...

[hoola]

janus, you perhaps do not understand the idea. I would not lob about black hole bowling balls to create

gravity waves any more than I would shake a magnet at a coil to create a RF signal.. My idea deals directly with the fundamentals of gravity (once understood) and does not involve moving parts, all is done through computers and their power requirement is what I was referring to...If you want to discuss the concept of "gravity having parts" , and if so would they be subject to careful tinkering, or if gravity could be separated out from the other forces to deal with just one without messing up the others, or if gravity will ever be understood, that would be cool...

strange, no I didn't see the matrix. the last SF movie I could sit through was Quiet Earth, anyway, if we can dabble with the moving parts of an atom as we do, it is only a matter of time before we move onto dabbling directly with the information that describes that same atom, and the same for space-time (gravity).

As to the Shawyer context request: go on utube and check out the NASA report on the vaccuum test of the EM engine Shawyer developed. Tests indicate it generates thrust without propellant, only needing electrical input. One idea of how this happens is that the microwaves "push against" space, causing the acceleration of the test vessel.

[swansont]

As to the Shawyer context request: go on utube and check out the NASA report on the vaccuum test of the EM engine Shawyer developed. Tests indicate it generates thrust without propellant, only needing electrical input. One idea of how this happens is that the microwaves "push against" space, causing the acceleration of the test vessel.

That's disappointing on several levels. Citations for claims should be links, preferably to peer-reviewed material, not a suggestion to "go on utube". But I searched anyway. Tests did not show that it generates thrust from the effect (the null test showed more thrust). Shawyer's work is crap.

[imatfaal]

!

Moderator Note

 

This thread has gone from a seemingly sensible query about the use of Gravitational Waves as a communications medium to a mess of guess-work, fiction, and crank-pottery.

 

Frankly; Janus' excellent answer settled this question.

 

Thread Locked.