Are [gravitational] waves traveling through some form of ' Fermion ' grid ?

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

.

. Fundamental particles of matter are fermions. . But we also have composites which are bosons as the spin is additive. For example we have mesons.The W and Z bosons have mass.You are describing the difference between fundamental forces and fundamental matter.

Basically . forces = fundamental bosons . and fermions = fundamental matter..

 

But this is for fundamental matter and not composites, which can be either bosons or fermions (but as far as we know one or the other).

 

Spin is the important thing.

I understand about the composites. But our root is still .

 

Forces = fundamental bosons . and fermions = fundamental matter..

 

I am still trying to get a handle on what is going on in ' space time ' and whether, in addition to distance and time being present in space time . That what exactly is , in the first instance is the interaction from any large mass in space time , before ever it causes any waves , namely still at the distortion stage . ( the rubber sheet stage )

 

What is it ( the star or whatever ) pushing out the way ? ( or sucking in ) is it pushing distances and time , is it pushing by some interaction between the mass of the star and ' something else ' present in space time ' namely loosely spread mass type matter ' or something else?

 

If it is interacting with something else to cause the originating distortion , what is the something ? Is it derived from fermionic fundamental matter , Bosonic entities , even if it modified to some composite particle .

 

Also , if now we have this change, disturbance, collision , spinning black holes ? Where is the interaction going on ,in the already distorted ( space time ) .

 

In other words if the things are now converted to complex particles , what exactly is being developed into waves ?

 

The bit I am missing at the moment (. What exactly is being disturbed ) ? If NOT fermionic . What ? Or is it current belief that its nothing ? ( I can't reconcile that last one in my mind and understanding of matter! )

 

Mike

Edited February 27, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Strange]

The bit I am missing at the moment (. What exactly is being disturbed ) ?

 

The geometry (lengths and curvature) of space and time.

 

 

What is it ( the star or whatever ) pushing out the way ? ( or sucking in ) is it pushing distances and time , is it pushing by some interaction between the mass of the star and ' something else ' present in space time ' namely loosely spread mass type matter ' or something else?

 

The presence of mass (and energy) directly affects the geometry of space and time.

 

 

If NOT fermionic . What ?

 

Why would you think it is "fermionic"? The electromagnetic field isn't (for example).

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

The geometry (lengths and curvature) of space and time.

 

( Mikes reply ) Yes, but there must be some markers to define , what is the beginning of the length , what is the end . Similarly where is the centre of curvature defined. Time ( well that a whole other ' can of worms )'

 

 

 

The presence of mass (and energy) directly affects the geometry of space and time.

 

( Mikes reply ) Yes But HOW ? Does it do this ?

 

 

 

Why would you think it is "fermionic"? The electromagnetic field isn't (for example).

 

( Mikes reply ) Only because , I understood ( now I am sinking fast ) mass was based on fermions and waves were based on bosons , like electromagnetic waves .

 

 

I am loosing my will to live !

 

I will end up diving into an Empty swimming Pool at this rate , having been convinced , there is water there , where there is none ! Or the other way round !

 

Mike

Edited February 27, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

You are correct. Which makes me think I don't understand how gravity works.

The basic Newtionian principle is that masses attract in proportion to the mass and in inverse-square relation to the distance.

I understand about the composites. But our root is still .

Forces = fundamental bosons . and fermions = fundamental matter..

I am still trying to get a handle on what is going on in ' space time ' and whether, in addition to distance and time being present in space time . That what exactly is , in the first instance is the interaction from any large mass in space time , before ever it causes any waves , namely still at the distortion stage . ( the rubber sheet stage )

What is it ( the star or whatever ) pushing out the way ? ( or sucking in ) is it pushing distances and time , is it pushing by some interaction between the mass of the star and ' something else ' present in space time ' namely loosely spread mass type matter ' or something else?

If it is interacting with something else to cause the originating distortion , what is the something ? Is it derived from fermionic fundamental matter , Bosonic entities , even if it modified to some composite particle .

Also , if now we have this change, disturbance, collision , spinning black holes ? Where is the interaction going on ,in the already distorted ( space time ) .

In other words if the things are now converted to complex particles , what exactly is being developed into waves ?

The bit I am missing at the moment (. What exactly is being disturbed ) ? If NOT fermionic . What ? Or is it current belief that its nothing ? ( I can't reconcile that last one in my mind and understanding of matter! )

Mike

Gravity doesn't care about fermion vs boson. Doesn't care if it's charged or neutral.

[Strange]

Yes, but there must be some markers to define , what is the beginning of the length , what is the end . Similarly where is the centre of curvature defined.

 

You can define whatever start and end points you like.

 

 

Yes But HOW ? Does it do this ?

 

That is just the way it is. That is what mass does. You could even say, that is what mass is.

 

Only because , I understood ( now I am sinking fast ) mass was based on fermions and waves were based on bosons , like electromagnetic waves .

 

I think you need to throw that idea away. It is not useful. (E.g. most of the mass of a proton comes from the binding energy - neither fermions nor bosons).

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

I think you need to throw that idea away. It is not useful. (E.g. most of the mass of a proton comes from the binding energy - neither fermions nor bosons).

That is just the way it is. That is what mass does. You could even say, that is what mass is.

 

 

.

Ah ha !

 

Now ! you have brought me back from the brink ! By those two statements , my sanity has been restored!

 

That is what I was taught , all those years ago at college . Binding energy . I don't seem to hear it mentioned so often nowadays. Maybe it is , but I am not in the right circles to hear it .

 

Binding energy . The curve that Dips ( bottoms out ) at IRON . Why most of the matter in the universe will ultimately be , if it is not already IRON.

 

The energy that is released or gained when elements Fuse or Fission to move up or down the Periodic table of elements .

 

The Energy of the universe " Bound up in matter " . Einstein's pride and joy !

" There she Blows , you land lubbers "

 

----------------------------- BINDING ENERGY ------------------------------------

 

 

 

That's what's powering every star in the universe as it moves through the Binding Energy curve from hydrogen toward Iron and from every Supernova onwards up towards Uranium .

 

 

And your Second statement -------------- MASS. IS ---------------

 

Of course , as you say. '. Mass is ' That was Einstein's other break through .

 

Mass is Energy and Energy is mass E = m c squared

 

Or as you say. ( mass is )

 

 

Now how to unscramble that in my mind , so as to understand this gravity wave issue , and Space Time ,

 

" I am not so sure ? "

 

Mike

Edited February 28, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[ajb]

Gravitation waves are ripples in the local geometry of space-time. You take some metric, which is one way of understanding the local geometry, and write is as a background + a small 'correction'

 

g = g0 +h

 

You then feed this into the Einstein field equations and after a little effort you see that h satisfies the wave equation. This is a gravitational wave. It does not need any masses to exist, once it has been created.

 

You now may want to ask what is space-time, what is the metric, what is gravity... I do not know how to answer those questions other than these are mathematical concepts that we can use to model our world.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Gravitation waves are ripples in the local geometry of space-time. You take some metric, which is one way of understanding the local geometry, and write is as a background + a small 'correction'g = g0 +hYou then feed this into the Einstein field equations and after a little effort you see that h satisfies the wave equation. This is a gravitational wave. It does not need any masses to exist, once it has been created.You now may want to ask what is space-time, what is the metric, what is gravity... I do not know how to answer those questions other than these are mathematical concepts that we can use to model our world.

.

 

Maybe that is it :- AJB You said " You now may want to ask what is space-time, what is the metric, what is gravity... " ?

 

I am saying , or may be Strange is saying , or maybe Swanson , String-junky, you AJB and everybody is saying ...

 

" Maybe space time has all this energy locked up in it , under tension ... Then .... May be by some form of disturbance or purtibation in space time will create matter and gravity ? "

 

And may be by further immense disturbance ( like two black holes swirling about each other ) we see further disturbances in this highly energised fabric of space time , heading out as gravitational waves across this fabric of space time . " Eureka I have it ! " I think I need a drink !

 

I am in Awe ! Awe ref :- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awe

 

Mike

Edited February 28, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[ajb]

" Maybe space time has all this energy locked up in it , under tension ....

It is not so easy to even understand the local meaning of energy of a space-time in general relativity. Globally it can be okay, for 'nice' space-times.

 

 

May be by some form of disturbance or purtibation in space time will create matter and gravity ? "

You can have purely gravitational objects, ie. non-trivial configurations of the geometry of space-time in vacuum. A gravitational wave would be such an object.

 

However, if you want to understand all kinds of matter as 'lumps' in the gravitational field then you have a big problem. There is no way to get all the properties of the particles in the standard model in this way. You will not, for example, create fermions which in a quasi-classical description require anti-commuting variables. You can at best get just spin-2 particles in this way, so gravitons. On top of that would would have to understand how electric charge and the other charges of the standard model are incorporated. I think this would be impossible in the context of pure GR. The only thing that may come close would be a Kaluza–Klein theory on a supermanifold or indeed superstring theory.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

It is not so easy to even understand the local meaning of energy of a space-time in general relativity. Globally it can be okay, for 'nice' space-times.You can have purely gravitational objects, ie. non-trivial configurations of the geometry of space-time in vacuum. A gravitational wave would be such an object.However, if you want to understand all kinds of matter as 'lumps' in the gravitational field then you have a big problem. There is no way to get all the properties of the particles in the standard model in this way. You will not, for example, create fermions which in a quasi-classical description require anti-commuting variables. You can at best get just spin-2 particles in this way, so gravitons. On top of that would would have to understand how electric charge and the other charges of the standard model are incorporated. I think this would be impossible in the context of pure GR. The only thing that may come close would be a KaluzaKlein theory on a supermanifold or indeed superstring theory.

?

I was ecstatically happy , there for a brief moment, a sort of enlightening , scientific, philosophical , ecstasy , moment . Then this massive heavy brass pan , came out of the sky and lamp'd me one . " The only thing that may come close would be a KaluzaKlein theory on a supermanifold or indeed superstring theory" Ouch ! "Who said that . What hit me . "

 

Mike

Edited February 28, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

[

The only thing that may come close would be a KaluzaKlein theory on a supermanifold or indeed superstring theory.

.

 

If I am understanding things right , there is some state in ' space time ' . All sorts of names like ' manifold ' etc

 

One thing seems to come to the surface is tension and fields .

 

Is this indicative of a presence of a lot of " fields " of various sorts and a lot of " energy " bound up in tension .

 

I can understand the universe being permeated by both " fields " and " energy " .

In the first place fields are required to underscore everything . And energy is required to create or keep things apart , such as ' say' the Big Bang being bucket loads beyond belief of energy , pushing the universe apart into its current tension spread across space time .

 

So rather than being empty the ' Space Time ' is shot through with fields and energy . And as energy and mass are interchangeable (E=Mass x Speed of light square ) and the fields must have come from particles in some way or another , then the universe must be strewn with particle Mass ?

 

 

Is this what the Gravity Waves are rippling through ?

 

 

Mike

Edited February 29, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

Energy is a property of things. It is not an entity unto itself.

 

Gravitational waves are not rippling through anything. They are changes in spacetime — the coordinate system we use to measure length and time. It's not fixed. We will not agree on the length of the meter nor the duration of the second if we are different frames of reference. In this case, the length of the meter (as observed by someone else) is changing by the tiniest of amounts, and then changing back to what it was. So these changes have an amplitude, and a speed, and a wavelength and frequency — IOW they can be described as a wave. But since spacetime isn't a medium, these waves aren't in a medium.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Energy is a property of things. It is not an entity unto itself.

 

Gravitational waves are not rippling through anything. They are changes in spacetime the coordinate system we use to measure length and time. It's not fixed. We will not agree on the length of the meter nor the duration of the second if we are different frames of reference. In this case, the length of the meter (as observed by someone else) is changing by the tiniest of amounts, and then changing back to what it was. So these changes have an amplitude, and a speed, and a wavelength and frequency IOW they can be described as a wave. But since spacetime isn't a medium, these waves aren't in a medium.

.

A)

"these waves aren't in a medium." Then where exactly were they , 655 million years ago ?( , half the time they took to get here )?

 

B)" So these changes have an amplitude, and a speed, and a wavelength and frequency " where were they ,When they were on their journey from half a billion years ago. , until today

 

C) What happens if there isn't anyone observing ? .

 

 

D) Energy is a property of things. It is not an entity unto itself. Ok . But it must come from somewhere . ( where ) . Must go somewhere during the last 1.3 million years ( where ) ? ,

 

E) what ' thing' was it in during the middle - Years of the ( 0. - 1.3 billion years ago )period

 

Mike

Edited February 29, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Strange]

.

A)

"these waves aren't in a medium." Then where exactly were they , 655 million years ago ?( , half the time they took to get here )?

 

They were 665 million light years away (ignoring any expansion of space that might have occurred in that time).

 

That is a distance. That is one of the three spatial dimensions that make up space-time. Those are the same dimensions that get curved by mass. It is regular changes in those dimensions that make up gravitational waves. If you want to call space-time a "medium" then please do. Einstein himself referred to it that way on at least one occasion. But he also stressed that this "medium" is not material; it has no measurable properties.

 

B)" So these changes have an amplitude, and a speed, and a wavelength and frequency " where were they ,When they were on their journey from half a billion years ago. , until today

 

Passing through the intervening distance (or space). One of the dimensions of space time, etc. etc.

 

C) What happens if there isn't anyone observing ? .

 

Depends which philosopher you ask. But as it isn't relevant to the thread, I am going to ignore it.

 

D) Energy is a property of things. It is not an entity unto itself. Ok . But it must come from somewhere . ( where ) . Must go somewhere during the last 1.3 million years ( where ) ? ,

 

In this case, it came from the mass of the black holes. Mass approximately equal to three times the mass of our sun was converted to the energy of the gravitational waves.

 

And since then it has been spreading out through space. A tiny fraction of it was picked up by the LIGO detector.

 

E) what ' thing' was it in during the middle - Years of the ( 0. - 1.3 billion years ago )period

 

Space-time.

 

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

1. They were 665 million light years away (ignoring any expansion of space that might have occurred in that time).

 

That is a distance. That is one of the three spatial dimensions that make up space-time. Those are the same dimensions that get curved by mass. It is regular changes in those dimensions that make up gravitational waves. If you want to call space-time a "medium" then please do. Einstein himself referred to it that way on at least one occasion. But he also stressed that this "medium" is not material; it has no measurable properties.

 

 

 

2.Passing through the intervening distance (or space). One of the dimensions of space time, etc. etc.

 

 

 

 

3. Depends which philosopher you ask. But as it isn't relevant to the thread, I am going to ignore it.

 

 

 

4. In this case, it came from the mass of the black holes. Mass approximately equal to three times the mass of our sun was converted to the energy of the gravitational waves.

 

And since then it has been spreading out through space. A tiny fraction of it was picked up by the LIGO detector.

 

 

 

5. Space-time.

 

 

.

 

I appreciate your comments on these points , as I am genuinely interested in getting things straight in my head as much as possible unless I reach a brick wall that I just can not agree. So appreciate and will go through as answered

 

 

1. O.k. At a distance , but here I am say , running along with the gravity wave ( as a thought experiment ) . How do I know I am even traveling , there is nothing there . No markers , not roadside posts, just void of nothingness . At least will I see a star coming just ahead to the left a bit ? Will I be able to measure the distance as we did when we went to the moon?. But if I am in a stretch where there is nothing for a year, just blackness. How will I measure this distance? How do I even know I am moving ? How does the coming up star , as we approach , influence my patch of space time from so far away ? What can I detect in my patch of space time to know that it is being squashed up a bit , or stretched a bit from this coming up star , as I, we , approach . unless I can put some instrument out the window of the space ship to measure some feature of space time which tells me the lines of disturbance are changing ( squashed or stretched) . Do I hold a pendulum out the window to see if it gets attracted?

 

2. Covered by 1. Above

 

3. O.k a philosophical point !

 

4. Now this is getting very near my deep questioning ! Now if the spinning Black holes are giving out energy as Gravitational waves , How , just how , is that energy crossing Space -time ? As a packet , as a mass particle cloudless , ? If it is increased bunching and depletion of space , how does that travel across the stillness of Space-time ? This is really into my concern of the nature of space-time . If it is being distorted even more . ' what is being distorted? '

 

5. No. It has been said , possibly by Swansont , and maybe yourself that " the 'energy ' is a property in the ' think ' , " not a thing itself . " similarly yourself you say the disturbance is there in ' space time ' namely as energy in the form of a distortion , energy in the thing ' . But what thing , there is nothing there , so you say. If I was left to my own devices , I would say there was ' something ' there , all be it very finely grained , but something to be rucked. But you two guys are saying there is nothing there. You might be right , but I am finding it difficult , for all this energy, all this deforming effect due to massive objects , all these rucks and waves , all to be in Nothing ?

 

Mike

Edited February 29, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

1. O.k. At a distance , but here I am say , running along with the gravity wave ( as a thought experiment )

Since they travel at c and you can't, this isn't a valid thought experiment — it demands that a law of physics be violated.

 

 

4. Now this is getting very near my deep questioning ! Now if the spinning Black holes are giving out energy as Gravitational waves , How , just how , is that energy crossing Space -time ? As a packet , as a mass particle cloudless , ? If it is increased bunching and depletion of space , how does that travel across the stillness of Space-time ? This is really into my concern of the nature of space-time . If it is being distorted even more . ' what is being distorted? '

It's not the spinning but the colliding, but: what if we rephrased this as EM radiation. How is the energy crossing space time? Answer: There is an oscillating EM field which contains the energy, but no medium is required.

 

So how would use that to answer the question about gravitational waves?

[Strange]

1. O.k. At a distance , but here I am say , running along with the gravity wave ( as a thought experiment ) . How do I know I am even traveling , there is nothing there .

 

If you want to, you can divide space into a grid and measure movement against that. You can imagine a mesh of wires, if you like. As the gravitational wave passes it will stretch and squish the grid.

 

The fact there is nothing there isn't really relevant. (It isn't really true, either. There is always something: gas, dust, stars ...) The Ordnance Survey's grid references still work over a body of featureless water or sand.

 

 

Now if the spinning Black holes are giving out energy as Gravitational waves , How , just how , is that energy crossing Space -time ? As a packet , as a mass particle cloudless , ?

 

As distortions in the geometry of space time.

 

 

f it is increased bunching and depletion of space , how does that travel across the stillness of Space-time ?

 

Space-time is not still.

 

 

If it is being distorted even more . ' what is being distorted? '

 

Distances, angles, ... in other words: geometry.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

If you want to, you can divide space into a grid and measure movement against that. You can imagine a mesh of wires, if you like. As the gravitational wave passes it will stretch and squish the grid.

 

The fact there is nothing there isn't really relevant. (It isn't really true, either. There is always something: gas, dust, stars ...) The Ordnance Survey's grid references still work over a body of featureless water or sand.

 

 

 

As distortions in the geometry of space time.

 

 

 

Space-time is not still.

 

 

 

Distances, angles, ... in other words: geometry.

Wait a minute , if there is something there , gas, dust , stars , true they can be influenced, that is fine . And I would go on to posit there may be a whole lot more things , micro miniature particles, a whole sea of particles which as a composite make up a sort of grid of thin matter , that can be distorted by suns, energy waves and whatever. But I do not think you guys will have that , will you . You want me to believe that near empty space - time is allowing energy waves in g-d knows what form are passing across an empty vacuum?

 

Now you say to me Electro-magnetic waves do it. Well I find that hard enough , but at least they appear to be crossing a vacuum as partners ( electric field - magnetic field ) oscillating against one another , self supporting ( a bit like those buzzing double ovoid magnets kids throw in the air , buzzing against one another) . But I do not yet see One thing crossing the void , let alone two things , !

Even if you say gravity is a thing ( that is only one ) . Even then I think you are saying it's Not a thing . Now if you were to say gravity were a thing and it was oscillating against a negative gravity counterpart or something , and the two somehow buzz or oscillate like an Electro-Magnetic wave , then my ears would prick up ! Something must hold that packet of energy , surely , like a wave on the sea. It's put in to the sea water by the wind and it has an UP part of the wave , balanced by a DOWN part of the wave , and it travels across the sea . Now what is equivalent of the ' sea ' in Space Time , what is equivalent of the UP and DOWN surely it is the gravity wave , but it must have a SEA to travel on . , Surely ?

 

Mike

 

Ps I could accept what you say about the grid of Space - Time geometry , being squashed and waves zooming across if there was some medium there , but you are saying ' there is nothing there ' ? Unless I am missing something really fundamental about things automatically zooming off at the speed of light ? See I can think in terms of a set of stood up dominoes a thousand miles long , and the first one goes down and zoom the wave travels along quite fast all the way to the other end . But this all requires 'something there ' a particle ' or a ' medium ' ?

Edited February 29, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[StringJunky]

... See I can think in terms of a set of stood up dominoes a thousand miles long , and the first one goes down and zoom the wave travels along quite fast all the way to the other end . But this all requires 'something there ' a particle ' or a ' medium ' ?

Gravitational waves are the modulation of time and distance. Forget about material properties. Is electric charge material or magnetism? You don't have any problem with photons being made of them do you. Why can't modulated gravity be 'made' of time and space, which comprise spacetime? When scientists measure it, those parameters are what's affected.

[Strange]

Wait a minute , if there is something there , gas, dust , stars , true they can be influenced, that is fine . And I would go on to posit there may be a whole lot more things , micro miniature particles, a whole sea of particles which as a composite make up a sort of grid of thin matter , that can be distorted by suns, energy waves and whatever. But I do not think you guys will have that , will you . You want me to believe that near empty space - time is allowing energy waves in g-d knows what form are passing across an empty vacuum?

 

Yes, space is full of stuff from photons and neutrinos, through gas and dust, up to planets and stars. None of which is relevant. Gravitational waves happily ignore all that. They would travel through completely empty space equally well.

 

 

Ps I could accept what you say about the grid of Space - Time geometry , being squashed and waves zooming across if there was some medium there , but you are saying ' there is nothing there ' ?

 

Well, if you can't accept it, I suppose that is just too bad. There is nothing anyone can do about that. But it is a shame because you are rejecting and missing out on a fascinating area of science.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Gravitational waves are the modulation of time and distance. Forget about material properties. Is electric charge material or magnetism? You don't have any problem with photons being made of them do you. Why can't modulated gravity be 'made' of time and space, which comprise spacetime? When scientists measure it, those parameters are what's affected.

Yes that sounds great ! But I seem to be missing a trick here somewhere ! Perhaps it's because I have worked with electrons and magnetism in EM waves , that I am blinded to seeing. ' time and space ' being modulated by a wave .

 

How the h... Do you modulate Time and how do you modulate space ? Or how do you make a TS Wave .

Apart from swinging two black hole about over your head .

 

Has it been done , locally , like in a lab , and detected as such ?

 

Mike

Edited February 29, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Strange]

Has it been done , locally , like in a lab , and detected as such ?

 

No. We don't have the technology to move sufficiently large masses around (or, equivalently, we don't have the technology to detect waves caused by moving small masses around).

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Yes, space is full of stuff from photons and neutrinos, through gas and dust, up to planets and stars. None of which is relevant. Gravitational waves happily ignore all that. They would travel through completely empty space equally well.

 

 

 

Well, if you can't accept it, I suppose that is just too bad. There is nothing anyone can do about that. But it is a shame because you are rejecting and missing out on a fascinating area of science.

.

No I do not want that . I would love to accept it . I just have some , mental block , for some reason or another. It's not stubbornness . I wish I could see it . I have the feeling , I am missing something .

 

With electro magnetism , I can comb my hair and pick up a small scrap of paper with my comb , or move gold leaves on an electroscope.

 

I can pass a current through a wire and see a compass move . I can oscillate a current with a coil and electrostatics with a capacitor. I can make thus an EM WAVE move across space to another antenna.

 

Tell me how I can manipulate space and time so I can send a gravity wave a short distance ? And detect it a short distance away ?

 

Then I will willingly and lovingly become a believer , please! , on my blended knees ! I want to believe !

 

Mike

No. We don't have the technology to move sufficiently large masses around (or, equivalently, we don't have the technology to detect waves caused by moving small masses around).

Then I would say , are you really certain you know what you are picking up , or receiving , if it's never been done before ? It might have been a twenty ton truck that fell off a cliff a county distance away . And they have got the timing screwed up .

 

I am not serious. But you are asking me to believe in something that can not be checked experimentally . Which I have been ' hauled over the coals ' for not fully performing with my lead filled toy rat zooming out of a cardboard tube , during my centrifugal force experiment . ( which worked incidentally , before the tube broke, and the Jack Russell ran after the lead shot filled rat )

 

Link :- http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/88420-centrifugal-forces-appear-to-act-opposite-to-gravity-how-is-this-possible/?p=867987

 

Mike

Edited March 1, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[StringJunky]

Yes that sounds great ! But I seem to be missing a trick here somewhere ! Perhaps it's because I have worked with electrons and magnetism in EM waves , that I am blinded to seeing. ' time and space ' being modulated by a wave .

 

How the h... Do you modulate Time and how do you modulate space ? Or how do you make a TS Wave .

Apart from swinging two black hole about over your head .

 

Has it been done , locally , like in a lab , and detected as such ?

 

Mike

Perhaps you'll be happier - along with many others, probably - when scientists have a working model, with a quantum description, where phenomena are mediated by virtual particles, like gravitons.

Edited March 1, 2016 by StringJunky

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Well, if you can't accept it, I suppose that is just too bad. There is nothing anyone can do about that. But it is a shame because you are rejecting and missing out on a fascinating area of science.

I have to say , intuitively , I think you are right ! I just have this gaping ' hole '. , where my particular logic , which I appreciate gets up some peoples nostrils occasionally , is dogging me ! " There is something missing here somewhere ! ". It's saying to me .

 

I would not be involving myself in these discussions about gravity , if I did not think there was something really ' Big' about to break the horizon . I can feel it coming ! May be it is a new discovery around gravity , gravity waves.

 

Maybe we ought to be trying to do some ' bench top 'experiments with gravity. There is enough of it about . Right under our feet .

 

We will kick ourselves , further down the line . " it was staring us in the face , why could we not see it "

Mark my words . " There is a new area of scientific endeavour about to break onto the world scene ! Surrounding Gravity "

 

Mike