What is the price of fear?

[dimreepr]

Shame for us and suffering for them; I was once proud of my country but that ended when we turned our backs on the Syrian refugees.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34131911

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_migrant_crisis

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/03/refugee-crisis-hungary-sends-troops-border-160309134453267.html

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/refugee-crisis-eu-turkey-big-question-if-not-europe-then-where-a6919136.html

 

 

Edit/ To add, This question isn’t confined to the migrant crisis, BTW, but to any consequence of our fears.

 

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jean_de_La_Fontaine

Edited March 9, 2016 by dimreepr

[Phi for All]

I think most people are willing to do some part in alleviating this kind of suffering. It's in our nature as a cooperative species.

 

But their opinions become manipulated, by commercial media wielded by corporate interests usually, so they're made to fear the outcome that will mean the least profits for the manipulators, in this case pledging lots of social resources to house refugees that have nothing to exploit. Politicians owe favors to the campaign-funding manipulators, and they love passing legislation that makes them seem like they're doing something about Fearful Situation X.

[dimreepr]

Indeed, the following quotes illustrate your point nicely I think:

 

Everyone believes very easily whatever they fear or desire.

 

Be advised that all flatterers live at the expense of those who listen to them.

 

Our destiny is frequently met in the very paths we take to avoid it.

[Phi for All]

Wizard's First Rule (Terry Goodkind, 1994): "People are stupid. Given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true."

[Sirona]

It also helps when there is an incentive or something to gain from cooperating, even if it's just good will, the act is not entirely selfless.

 

Most people have a 'herd mentality' and follow the ideologies of their leaders blindly without much thought. A lot of our beliefs on politics, religion, morality are 'inherited' not just from our immediate family and community but our society. Is this a bad thing? That's the question I would be asking instead. I'm also going to play Devil's advocate and say no.

[Robittybob1]

 

It also helps when there is an incentive or something to gain from cooperating, even if it's just good will, the act is not entirely selfless.

 

Most people have a 'herd mentality' and follow the ideologies of their leaders blindly without much thought. A lot of our beliefs on politics, religion, morality are 'inherited' not just from our immediate family and community but our society. Is this a bad thing? That's the question I would be asking instead. I'm also going to play Devil's advocate and say no.

It is not a bad thing! "'herd mentality' and follow the ideologies of their leaders blindly without much thought" That doesn't sound so good to me.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Robittybob1

[StringJunky]

 

It is not a bad thing! "'herd mentality' and follow the ideologies of their leaders blindly without much thought" That doesn't sound so good to me.

She's playing Devll's Advocate. It's too easy to play the moral card. There are also prices to be paid for being saintly.

Edited March 10, 2016 by StringJunky

[Robittybob1]

She's playing Devll's Advocate. It's too easy to play the moral card. There are also prices to be paid for being saintly.

So when you play the Devil's advocate you are really in favor of the opposite, is that right?

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/play+devil's+advocate

 

 

play devil's advocate

to pretend to be against an idea or plan which a lot of people support in order to make people discuss it in more detail and think about it more carefully

[StringJunky]

So when you play the Devil's advocate you are really in favor of the opposite, is that right?

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/play+devil's+advocate

Yes.

[EdEarl]

It's the advocates and their devils of whom we need be wary. .

[Robittybob1]

It's the advocates and their devils of whom we need be wary. .

Is that right? I have very little fear. But I would hate to live in a war situation, who would know how you'd cope with that.

[EdEarl]

Is that right? I have very little fear. But I would hate to live in a war situation, who would know how you'd cope with that.

Perhaps the advocates and devils of whom I speak are for you clear thinkers with guardian angels. We don't all like the same politician, after all, and we do have varying opinions that are sharply tuned. The fear of which we speak is not like fearing a lion in the night; it is a lesser fear, for example fear, of an illegal alien taking your job or fear the lazy skid row bums will be given a scrap of bread, when they could work for it.

[Sirona]

She's playing Devll's Advocate. It's too easy to play the moral card. There are also prices to be paid for being saintly.

Indeed. There are also consequences for dissent; in some countries it's wise to self-censor regardless of your agenda. There are often more rewards for conformity than nonconformity and depending how much you value your political beliefs, it might be easier to put them aside to protect other freedoms and comforts.

 

Another important thing to consider: what happens when uneducated, misguided, misinformed, close minded, ignorant people don't live with a certain fear?

 

These aren't necessarily my views, I'm just trying to highlight the complexity of the question.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Sirona

[Robittybob1]

Indeed. There are also consequences for dissent; in some countries it's wise to self-censor regardless of your agenda. There are often more rewards for conformity than nonconformity and depending how much you value your political beliefs, it might be easier to put them aside to protect other freedoms and comforts.

 

Another important thing to consider: what happens when uneducated, misguided, misinformed, close minded, ignorant people don't live with a certain fear?

 

These aren't necessarily my views, I'm just trying to highlight the complexity of the question.

What is this "certain fear"?

[EdEarl]

What is this "certain fear"?

I think it is not a specific fear. If a person is uneducated, they may not know that a comet 65 million years ago ended the age of dinosaurs, and that another similar comet could kill us all. Thus, that person would not fear a comet impact. However, that lack of fear has little affect on anyone. A similar person may not realize that prison is the finishing school of crime, and making laws to send more people to prison increases the population of criminals, partly because laws almost never prevent crime.

[Sirona]

What is this "certain fear"?

I meant 'degree' of fear, rather than a specific fear.

 

It's not just violent criminals that pose a risk. Some might sleep better at night knowing uneducated zealots, emotional radical youths and misguided idealists live with a certain degree of fear too.

 

Everyone thinks they can do a better job. I'm not sure I could.

 

 

[Robittybob1]

I meant 'degree' of fear, rather than a specific fear.

 

It's not just violent criminals that pose a risk. Some might sleep better at night knowing uneducated zealots, emotional radical youths and misguided idealists live with a certain degree of fear too.

 

Everyone thinks they can do a better job. I'm not sure I could.

 

 

On the forum I fear the moderators, for I have had experience of the moderation. So I have a degree of fear.

I know my calves could die from a variety of diseases, so I have a degree of fear there.

But I don't find these fears overwhelm me. I have experienced overwhelming fear where your heart just about explodes from the adrenalin surge, where your legs will not work as fast as your brain wants them too. Both not a good feeling.

 

What "better job" are you implying? Better job of dealing with fear. Is that it?

[Sirona]

On the forum I fear the moderators, for I have had experience of the moderation. So I have a degree of fear.

I know my calves could die from a variety of diseases, so I have a degree of fear there.

But I don't find these fears overwhelm me. I have experienced overwhelming fear where your heart just about explodes from the adrenalin surge, where your legs will not work as fast as your brain wants them too. Both not a good feeling.

 

What "better job" are you implying? Better job of dealing with fear. Is that it?

A better job at making policies.

 

Why do you fear moderators? their decisions can't possibly be affecting your life and if they are, you've got greater problems than the moderating team

[Robittybob1]

A better job at making policies.

 

Why do you fear moderators? their decisions can't possibly be affecting your life and if they are, you've got greater problems than the moderating team

Do you really think so?

Shame for us and suffering for them; I was once proud of my country but that ended when we turned our backs on the Syrian refugees.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34131911

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_migrant_crisis

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/03/refugee-crisis-hungary-sends-troops-border-160309134453267.html

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/refugee-crisis-eu-turkey-big-question-if-not-europe-then-where-a6919136.html

 

 

Edit/ To add, This question isn’t confined to the migrant crisis, BTW, but to any consequence of our fears.

 

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Jean_de_La_Fontaine

I put a lot of the blame on Turkey. I feel for the Kurds and I hope they get a homeland one day. The Syrians deserve support but no one is going to start WWIII over their issues. Russia is always going to back Assad to protect their interests.

There are too many conflicting interests to find a solution. Send the refugees to Russia and the problem would be solved tomorrow.

But what would make them head that way instead of Europe - pay them to go there?

Edited March 10, 2016 by Robittybob1

[dimreepr]

This isn’t the thread to debate the complexities of the Syrian war.

 

The question is about the level of suffering people are willing to witness in order to maintain their relative opulence.

[EdEarl]

This isn’t the thread to debate the complexities of the Syrian war.

 

The question is about the level of suffering people are willing to witness in order to maintain their relative opulence.

My ideal is that Earth's resources be shared equally to assure everyone has food, clothing, shelter, and medical care to assure their no frills survival. I cannot make my ideal occur; rather, must live in my culture and location. Some things I consider non-essential are nonetheless forced upon me, whether I like it or not, for example keeping my yard mowed, which due to its size requires power tools. I must hire the job done, as I am not able. In one sense that is opulence, but I do not have a choice. The same is true for driving a car, it is necessary in my environment. People probably suffer because of my opulence, but systems need to change.

 

BTW, I am growing a garden, to have more control over my food, and to live a more renewable life. That's my personal effort to change the system.

[Robittybob1]

This isn’t the thread to debate the complexities of the Syrian war.

 

The question is about the level of suffering people are willing to witness in order to maintain their relative opulence.

I was wondering what it was about? What is the price of fear? and "Edit/ To add, This question isn’t confined to the migrant crisis, BTW, but to any consequence of our fears." It didn't explain the limits of the discussion when did it become a discussion on "the level of suffering people are willing to witness in order to maintain their relative opulence"?

[dimreepr]

I was wondering what it was about? What is the price of fear? and "Edit/ To add, This question isn’t confined to the migrant crisis, BTW, but to any consequence of our fears." It didn't explain the limits of the discussion

 

 

I prefer not to bind the discussion too tightly as tangents can often throw up interesting ideas.

 

 

when did it become a discussion on "the level of suffering people are willing to witness in order to maintain their relative opulence"?

 

 

 

I thought the OP implied that question, I apologies for the brevity that lead to your confusion.

My ideal is that Earth's resources be shared equally to assure everyone has food, clothing, shelter, and medical care to assure their no frills survival. I cannot make my ideal occur; rather, must live in my culture and location. Some things I consider non-essential are nonetheless forced upon me, whether I like it or not, for example keeping my yard mowed, which due to its size requires power tools. I must hire the job done, as I am not able. In one sense that is opulence, but I do not have a choice. The same is true for driving a car, it is necessary in my environment. People probably suffer because of my opulence, but systems need to change.

 

 

I don’t think of opulence to mean things that are necessary to live one’s life in the society we find ourselves; to me opulence means the extra’s we have, the food we waste (because we can), the holidays abroad (rather than just a break from the grindstone), the toys we buy ourselves (that gets one use then languishes in garage) etc...

 

 

BTW, I am growing a garden, to have more control over my food, and to live a more renewable life. That's my personal effort to change the system.

 

 

 

Kudos...

[StringJunky]

...... I don’t think of opulence to mean things that are necessary to live one’s life in the society we find ourselves; to me opulence means the extra’s we have, the food we waste (because we can), the holidays abroad (rather than just a break from the grindstone), the toys we buy ourselves (that gets one use then languishes in garage)...

"Let them eat cake" - M. Antoinette. You think we are acting like the bourgoisie?

Edited March 10, 2016 by StringJunky

[EdEarl]

I don’t think of opulence to mean things that are necessary to live one’s life in the society we find ourselves; to me opulence means the extra’s we have, the food we waste (because we can), the holidays abroad (rather than just a break from the grindstone), the toys we buy ourselves (that gets one use then languishes in garage) etc...

Compared to a sustenance farmer fleeing across the Mediterranean to escape drought (and many others), I am living very well. Although, by US standards my life style is middle (working) class, retired.

 

I believe the Earth can support everyone in a life style similar to mine, but there are a multitude of things to do that will reduce our impact on the environment. Many of them need to be developed. Wind and solar has become competitive with coal and oil power production, a massive development effort. As those technologies are adopted, more inefficiencies and poor practices need to be corrected.

 

For me, mindful meditation allows me to work on myself and my relationships, and secular Buddhism provides a relevant philosophy for living a superb life in tune with family, friends and the environment. I hope people learn things are transient and bring at most temporary pleasure; there's too much emphasis on things.