Morality, what is it?

[weasel54849]

Hello all! I am doing a report for school and I would like a few opinions on a touchy topic. here it goes.

 

According to your beliefs:

 

Where does morality come from?

 

How do you determine what is right and wrong?

 

Is there really such a thing as “right” and “wrong?”

 

And why do you believe the way you do?

 

I don’t want to start a big fight or anything, I just want some quick comments, and maybe some discution.

 

Ty

[Dak]

Where does morality come from?

from what i have observed, this seems to come from one of 3 places:

 

god

 

society

 

self.

 

i personally made my morals up myself, but lots of people go with 'what the vast majority of society feel' or 'what god says'

[Mokele]

How do you determine what is right and wrong?

 

Observe what the Christian Right does. Do the opposite. Works quite well, I've found.

 

Mokele

[klanger]

 

Where does morality come from?

 

How do you determine what is right and wrong?

 

Is there really such a thing as “right” and “wrong?”

 

And why do you believe the way you do?

 

I don’t want to start a big fight or anything' date=' I just want some quick comments, and maybe some discution.

 

Ty[/quote']

 

 

I believe the basis for all our morals comes from God held within the ten commandments.

 

From there the individual societies that you grow up in add or remove a few of their own.

 

Your parents and those in authority around you try to instil in you a good sense of marality as you grow and learn. They endeavour to teach you right from wrong based somewhat on the origional ten commandments, and what society expects.

 

As an adult you yourself will have either accepted most of what you have learned, added to it through experience or even taken away some of what you learned as a child.

 

I think most people have the same opinion on some of the origional ten commandments, whether they believe in God or not, but it very unlikely that all of us will agree on all of the commandments. Or even agree on what is morally right or wrong 100%. As I said, society, parents and even yourself sway those origional commandments to suit a particular set of circumstances that you are in at the time.

 

Lets take bullying for an example. Most of us will agree that bullying is wrong and should be stamped out, I dont think this one is covered in the commandments but is most certainly one that quite a few societies find wrong.

 

However, in most military establishments within the training regime for young male and female recruits, bullying is rife. Now whilst we may agree that bullying is wrong, some will change their opinion in this instance and say its ok in the army because.... "we need to have strong people that will stand and face the enemy and not run from them, and bullying in the early days of training will weed out the weak from the strong". Some will say "bullying is totally unacceptable and should be stamped out emmediately", and some will say "we need to find a happy medium". So what happens now?

 

In England bullying within the military is a serious crime, those in charge are not allowed to touch the recruits or scream abuse at them, but what happens to this now mix match of troops when they go into a war situation. If a weaker soldier is captured and tortured how will he/she cope, will the long term effects be more dibilitating than perhaps the stronger soldier who previously would have survived the initial training?

 

I dont necessarily know the answer to any of this, I do know that we will all have oppinions based on it.

 

What it boils down to is a quote that I have heard repeated several times in my life.

 

You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time.... but you cant please all of the people all of the time.

[husmusen]

In reply to weasel54849:

 

Lets assume that rather than ultimate and true morality,

you're asking about a persons general sense of morality.

 

How about this,

 

1)Religion is the relationship a human being percieves between

himself, that is his own individual self, and that which created him, that is

his point of origin.

 

Wether he understands that to be the one true God, creator of all that is seen and unseen(Abrahamic faiths).

Ancestors(Shinto I think, perhaps err better go check).

The family-state entity(Roman paganism).

 

2) Morality is the permanent guide to correct attitudes and

actions that flows naturally from this understanding.

 

Hence there can be no morality without religion (in the above sense).

 

Don't use the above in an essay without citing L.N. Tolstoy,

your teacher likely has a source checker program, and Tolstoy WILL

be in it. . (I based my argument pretty heavily on something he wrote)

 

Cheers.

[husmusen]

klanger:

If a weaker soldier is captured and tortured how will he/she cope, will the long term effects be more dibilitating than perhaps the stronger soldier who previously would have survived the initial training?

 

1. There are specialist military training systems for interrogaton

resistance. Contact counselling behind the mess hall on the other hand

is neither rigourous or beneficial.

 

2. The 'toughening up' excuse has been used for far too long by the

little Corporal Himmelstosses, and they exist in every military,

as justification for their own personal sadistic fun.

 

Instinctively I feel that a long history of being bastardised would

probably help an enemy interrogator as the connection of

obedience/compliance == reward/ceasing of suffering is something that

an interrogator could use.

 

Now compare a soldier who loves and trusts his fellow teammembers with

his life? How much harder to betray them than a bunch of sadistic bastards

who've been grinding your face in the dirt since day one?

 

Just MHO.

 

Cheers.

[YT2095]

According to your beliefs:

 

Where does morality come from?

 

How do you determine what is right and wrong?

 

Is there really such a thing as “right” and “wrong?”

 

And why do you believe the way you do?

 

 

my "Morality" comes from Myself and teachings from others (primarily parents).

 

I determine right from wrong with the application of a simple rule:

*If I wouldn`t like it done to me, don`t do it to someone else*

 

I beleive the way I do because it`s Logical.

[klanger]

klanger:

 

 

1. There are specialist military training systems for interrogaton

resistance. Contact counselling behind the mess hall on the other hand

is neither rigourous or beneficial.

 

2. The 'toughening up' excuse has been used for far too long by the

little Corporal Himmelstosses' date=' and they exist in every military,

as justification for their own personal sadistic fun.

 

Instinctively I feel that a long history of being bastardised would

probably help an enemy interrogator as the connection of

obedience/compliance == reward/ceasing of suffering is something that

an interrogator could use.

 

Now compare a soldier who loves and trusts his fellow teammembers with

his life? How much harder to betray them than a bunch of sadistic bastards

who've been grinding your face in the dirt since day one?

 

Just MHO.

 

Cheers.[/quote']

 

I have no idea who or what a corporal Himmelstosses is.

 

My ex husband was in the army and while we were based at a training centre in Pribright I came to know about one particular sergant who used bullying as a means of glorifying himself.

 

He had used recruits as gold tees, making them hold the tee in their mouths as he swung his golf club at the ball, one soldier ended up with a lot of stitches to his face as a result of missing... This is outright bullying and totally unnecessary in my opinion.

 

Another soldier had pissed him off so he made the soldier lick his dogs bottom, again totally uncalled for and served no purpose other than to have total control over that soldier and any career within the services.

 

Other soldiers would have their cigerettes taken from them to make them do what ever part of the combat training they needed to do, I could kinda see the reasoning behind that one, however, upon completion of that training session this sergent then sold those cigerettes back to the respective soldiers at an unreal price, again bang out of order in my books.

 

I reported this sergent to the commanding officer and he was moved from the training depot.

 

Your last comment was to do with trusting your team members, trust is something that is earned not automatically given, if you have a team member that is mentally weaker than the rest, his pals wont trust him to save their lives should they need it, if he has proven at other times that he is unreliable.

 

I dont agree with the bullying like that of the examples I gave above, that is extreme in my opinion, I do however, believe that we need both mentally and physically strong service people in order to cope with what they will come across in a war type situation.

[Guest zygon]

Certainly not God. He did so many barbaric and 'un-Christian' acts that I can't really see where Christians get their so-called values from. - certainly not the old testament. Anyway, he doesn't exist.

 

I think that we do things to raise our status in our pack. Doing things that generally don't hurt others makes us more desirable as a friend and a mate. As we need to reproduce and have a clan, this is useful.

[husmusen]

who used bullying as a means of glorifying himself.

He had used recruits as golf tees, making them hold the tee in their mouths as he swung his golf club at the ball, one soldier ended up with a lot of stitches to his face as a result of missing..

Another soldier had pissed him off so he made the soldier lick his dogs bottom, again totally uncalled for and served no purpose other than to have total control over that soldier

 

Corporal Himmelstoss was a character in "All's quiet on the Western front".

I think you've pretty well defined him to a tee though .

 

, trust is something that is earned not automatically given

Agree.

 

But I would say that these sorts of weaknesses are best discovered

by high endurance excercises, requiring team cooperation, and which

put those partaking through a lot of psychological and physical stress. Not by bullying and bastardisation.

 

If a member is not up to it, it will show up during these stress tests.

That person should not be bullied or beaten out of the unit, but just be

part of the 10%, 25% or 75%(the ultra elite units) that don't get in.

'Bad luck soldier, good try, keep working out and training and try again next year.'

 

Bastardisation destroys team character.

Rigourous excercises and training builds trust and team character.

Even so I don't think you really 100% can be sure until the bullets

are real .

 

Again I can't prove any of this it's just my observations.

Anyway I have an A&P assignment that ain't doing itself.

 

Cheers.

[atinymonkey]

Where does morality come from?

I believe morality stems from Humanity. I think that the claim that it comes from religion is a false claim, as morality has existed since humanity became self aware. Morals, as we perceive them, are necessary facets of human psychology that allow interaction between people. Without morals or values, humanity would not have managed to struggle along until some guy with a religious bent came up with an Idol to worship. History shows that the pagan morals were highly structured before the ideas of Gods were introduced to the mix, and I feel this is indicitive of the nature of humanity.

 

How do you determine what is right and wrong?

Whatever you do to harm the least of us, harms us all:-

 

No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.

 

~ John Donne

 

Is there really such a thing as “right” and “wrong?”

Of course, but definitions are difficult to achieve. What George Bush Snr sees as right, civilian insurgents in Iraq see as wrong. Personally I see any harm, physical or emotional, as wrong. However the world dos not work in a way that allows people to always be in the right.

 

And why do you believe the way you do?

Because I am me, and I make my decisions based on my experience. Although I lean towards the views of people I agree with, at the end of the day any decision I make as to the right or the wrong thing in any situation is my own.

[klanger]

Hey there Husmusmen,

 

Thank you for clarifying what you were saying, your comments before had flown so far over my head that they hadnt even managed to part my hair

 

In short I totally agree with you, I wasnt advocating that kind of behaviour in the army, merely using it as an example of how a persons morals as such can change according to the circumstances that they find themselves in. Maybe it was a bad example.

[klanger]

ooops sowwy I spelled your nick wrong Husmusen

[coquina]

Hello all! I am doing a report for school and I would like a few opinions on a touchy topic. here it goes.

 

According to your beliefs:

 

Where does morality come from?

 

How do you determine what is right and wrong?

 

Is there really such a thing as “right” and “wrong?”

 

And why do you believe the way you do?

 

I don’t want to start a big fight or anything' date=' I just want some quick comments, and maybe some discution.

 

Ty[/quote']

 

I believe that "morality" originated when humans learned that they could accomplish more through living in groups by the division of labor. They soon learned that certain behaviors, ie murder, stealing, adultery, lead to disharmony within the group.

 

I think the notion of morality (probably a better word in the following example is "altruism") exists within other primates as well. Studies have shown that chimps often care for members of their group who are unable to care for themselves.

 

http://dailybeacon.utk.edu/issues/v83/n45/aca-darwin.45n.html

 

Many roots of human behavior can be traced to our primate heritage, de Waal said. "The first signs of moral decency is seen in the primates who allow the handicapped to live. People that own a dog know that dogs are not 100 percent selfish," he added.

 

During his research with primates, de Waal noticed there is a higher level of tolerance than people imagine. Part of de Waal's lecture pointed this out with an example of how a "socially stupid" monkey was given food by the other members of the group.

 

 

"Right" and "wrong" may be personalized to some extent. For example, it is "wrong" for Orthodox Jews to eat pork or seafood that does not have scales. I read an article years ago in Discover Magazine which explored the origins of that (and, yes, I know it is in the Bible). The article stated that pigs would have contaminated the water that was precious and scarce in semi-arid environments. It also traced the "scales only" rule to the fact that there are extremely poisonous puffer fish in the shores around the Middle East.

 

I have a Jewish friend who married into a Gentile family. She said that in her temple the rules for eating shrimp have been relaxed, but since it had been instilled as a "no-no" from her earliest memories, when she tried to eat it, it made her sick.

 

Personally, for me morality comes down to living by the 10 Commandments. I don't think it matters whether you are Christian, Jew, Muslim or Athiest - they are universal rules that enable one to live successfully within a group.

[YT2095]

"thou shall have no other Gods before me"

and that bit about keeping the sabbath holy...

 

I recon we can do without those in the 10 commandments though, as they`re purely Subjective to that dictat. and have little to no bearing upon Morality.

[Bettina]

my "Morality" comes from Myself and teachings from others (primarily parents).

 

I determine right from wrong with the application of a simple rule:

*If I wouldn`t like it done to me' date=' don`t do it to someone else*

 

I beleive the way I do because it`s Logical.[/quote']

 

This is what I believe too.

[In My Memory]

Weasel

 

Hello all! I am doing a report for school and I would like a few opinions on a touchy topic. here it goes.

 

According to your beliefs:

 

Where does morality come from?

Here is how I consider:

 

I suppose in a watered down way' date=' morality essentially stems from what people believe is the best way to behave - in other words, the ultimate origin of morality exists in part from the fact that some behaviors can be more desirable than others.

 

The beauty of that particular definition is in its simplicity. It can be deduced logically from almost every definition of morality imagined (usually, morality is defined as "the branch of philosophy which concerns itself with right and wrong actions"). And this particular definition makes so few unnecessary demands that, for the most part, I find it can be acceptable to even the most strident of subjectivists and nihilists.

 

How do you determine what is right and wrong?

Reason.

 

People argue all the time - presumably, people in argument are doing more than just expressing whether they believe something is acceptable or not, they are having disagreements about actual objective facts (such as the rightness or wrongness of [moral dilemma of your choice here]). Sorting out the facts tells you whether something is right or wrong.

 

It it must be asked "on what criteria should we judge the objective facts of moral questions", I would say such criteria themselves can be reasoned.

 

As long as morality isnt shoved aside in favor of relativist logic such as "thats only your opinion", or committed to subjective aestetic tastes, then there is always room for the force of reason to determine right and wrong.

 

 

Specifically, on Divine Command theories of morality:

 

Morality being defined in the way I've put forward is the fact that it does not limit morality to the subjective tastes of a hypothetical God. I've considered that any command God could prescribe, I could command the same things - there is no intrinsic difference between God's commands and my own (except that God could probably crush you like a bug).

 

I've always figured that if God could not mount his moral commands on a solid foundation of logic and reason, then his commands have no merit. There is a famous dilemma, called the Euthyphro, which without being winded acknowledges that either God considers some things to be moral because there are objective reasons to believe they are moral (in which case, morality exists outside of God, and such objective reasons can be obtained by theists and non-theists), or some things are moral because God values them (in which case, as there are no objective reasons to consider something moral, a non-theist no worse off than a theist in behaving morally).

 

Whatever the case, it ought to be rejected that morality must be determined by a God.

 

Is there really such a thing as “right” and “wrong?”

Certain actions can certainly be reasoned to be more desirable than other actions, so this is a definite yes.

 

And why do you believe the way you do?

Because I value consistency and reason.

 

For the most part, the things I consider to be ethical probably fall very closely along the lines of the preference utilitarian. The short and sweet explanation for why I find this ethic to be most believable is: it follows logically from the fact that causing things pain or dissatisfying preferences is intrinsically undesirable (such acts would be considered immoral), and likewise contributing to happiness and satisfying preferences is intrinsically desirable (such acts are moral). Another good point about this form of ethic is universal prescriptivism: on the basis that feeling pains and happiness is morally relevant and is a universal feature across all societies and cultures, I flatly reject the idea that certain moral actions are culturally relative.

 

I wouldnt say I believe anything for the reason that I had been taught to believe those things. My ethical system (which when expounded in more complete terms lends itself to veganism, animal rights consideration, environmentalism, and many interesting life and death concerns) is probably far out of the mainstream, but I consider that to be merely a result of mainstream ethics being murky, underdeveloped, and a minefield of contradictory moral values. "Just say 'no' to the status quo" is what I always say (actually, I've never said that, but maybe today I'll start )

 

Hope this helps

[RedAlert]

Hello all! I am doing a report for school and I would like a few opinions on a touchy topic. here it goes.

 

According to your beliefs:

 

Where does morality come from?

 

How do you determine what is right and wrong?

 

Is there really such a thing as “right” and “wrong?”

 

And why do you believe the way you do?

 

I don’t want to start a big fight or anything' date=' I just want some quick comments, and maybe some discution.

 

Ty[/quote']

 

Compare his style of writing to hebrewboy's in the post "Looking at infinity through human eyes." It is exactly the same. Seems this person, whoever it is, loves asking pointless questions that do not benefit us.

[weasel54849]

Hey RedAlert, I guess the style of writing looks the same as that post from hebrewboy, but I am not him. and if you think this topic is pointless you don't need to responed.

 

thanks to every one else.

[Skye]

Morality is my justification for being a bastard.

[RedAlert]

Fine, I am sure Sayanora can prove whether you are him or not. He can see everyone's ip.

[Coral Rhedd]

"An it harm non, do as ye will."

 

-- The Wiccan Rede

 

I am not Wiccan, but I have found nothing better as the basis of my morality. Sounds simple,think. Sounds like one would have a lot of fun and freedom.

 

Think again. And again. For the saying to have any meaning at all in application, there must be lots of thinking before acting. One must try to anticipate whether any significant act is likely to cause harm to another.

 

Moralities that are just a list of rules are the easy ones. Only follow. No thinking required.

[klanger]

Fine, I am sure Sayanora can prove whether you are him or not. He can see everyone's ip.

 

Sorry RedAlert, but that comes across as threatening. What difference does it make whether a person writes in the same style as another or is infact the same person using a different nick? Does it really matter?

 

Most of us hide behind a mask on the net anyway, otherwise there would be no need for a "nick/username" in the first place.

 

IMHO he merely opened up a line of debate, the fact that people answered clearly indicates that it was not a pointless one.

[paleolithic]

Morality is simply what we are trained to think, there is no such thing as right or wrong, they were simply created by domesticated humans. Morality is as real/fake as religion.

 

If you hit or reprimand a dog every time it goes inside, it is going to think it is bad to go inside. It will eventually either get nervous and scared everytime it goes inside (behind your back). Or avoid it entirely.

 

I believe the way I do because I believe morality is essentially baseless.

[atinymonkey]

I disagree.