Physics and the universe

[Hyper]

 

That maths problem can be done in your head - no problem whatsoever and definitely no complex. Division by 50 is the same as multiplication by 2 and the move the decimal place 2 to the left.

 

Maybe we have different notions of complexity - also possible is that if you learnt some of the techniques of mathematics and science what seems complex and daunting would suddenly become simple and mechanical

Why do you think I wrote the second one

[studiot]

 

Why do you think I wrote the second one

 

 

I don't know, but I do know that I made a genuine offer to rationally discuss the terms you used, by asking my question in post#25 to which you have not responded.

 

It is against the rules of this forum to ignore polite questions in this manner.

[Strange]

Why do you think I wrote the second one

 

That isn't complex, either. Or, at least, it doesn't help me understand what you mean by "complex". Can you provide any references that would help explain your use of the word?

 

Given your random sequence, we can say certain things about the distribution of patterns within it (depending on how the random numbers are generated, with what probability distribution), information entropy, and so on.

[swansont]

Why do you think I wrote the second one

 

 

If you acknowledge that we might have different notions of complexity, then you should understand why we want you to define what you mean by it, and by infinite complexity.

 

Or not, because of Strange's point that this would require contradicting theories both be true, which falsifies your claim about that.

[Strange]

On the other hand, it is nice to see someone arguing that the universe is complex and (if I interpret the "contradictory theories are true" idea correctly) that we can never fully understand it, in contrast to the claim that has been made by quite a few people, that theories like GR and QM must be wrong because they cannot be understood (by the poster, a barmaid, a child, or whatever).

 

Yes, the universe is complicated and it is possible we will never fully understand it.

[swansont]

On the other hand, it is nice to see someone arguing that the universe is complex and (if I interpret the "contradictory theories are true" idea correctly) that we can never fully understand it, in contrast to the claim that has been made by quite a few people, that theories like GR and QM must be wrong because they cannot be understood (by the poster, a barmaid, a child, or whatever).

 

Yes, the universe is complicated and it is possible we will never fully understand it.

 

 

The problem with that is we have this view that the universe follows certain rules, and "any theory will be true" flies in the face of that. It's a naive understanding of the situation: having an infinite number of theories be true is not the same as saying every theory we come up with must be true.

[studiot]

In order to put some flesh on the bones of my question here is an introduction to infinite and complexity for discussion

 

Infinite

 

We say an infinite something.

But what?

 

Consider the following two lists (sequences in maths)

 

1, 2, 3, 4..................

 

tan (0), tan (15), tan (30), tan (45), tan (60), tan (90)

 

The first list is an infinite list of positive integers. That is is does not terminate or goes on forever.

The list has no end.

So we say it is an infinite list or sequence.

But every one of the integers on that list has finite magnitude, ther are no infinite 'numbers' on the list.

 

The second list terminates or contains a finite number of items.

So it is not an infinite list.

Yet one of the items on the list has infinite mgnitude.

 

This is what I mean when I say that we have to be clear what we are applying the adjective infinite to when use it.

As above some properties may be infinite, whilst some may remain finite.

 

Complexity.

 

This is a noun and again it can be taken in more than one way.

Here is one interpretation, that can lead to a concept of infinite complexity, along the lines of the first example above ie it never ends.

 

Consider a list of items, such as facts, theorems, properties etc.

Call these items A, B, C, D, E etc

 

 

Now these items may be linked by connections of some sort, eg equations or whatever.

The totality of all the connections can be regarded as a measure of the 'complexity' of the system.

 

 

 

The following diagram shows the maximum number of single links for 5 items, where every item is linked once to every other item by connections shown as lines.

A formula and list for other numbers of items is also shown.

 

 

 

You can see that in this model the system comprises the items and the links and the complexity is given by a simple formula such that the complexity remains finite so long as the number of items remains finite.

However the complexity becomes infinite for an infinite number of items.

 

Does this help the discussion?

Edited April 4, 2016 by studiot

[Phi for All]

Guys I am not saying in real world it just a tricky concept it's not for real. I am just saying all the theories that we ever made on the making of the universe might be true if the complexity of the making of the universe is infinite.

 

What is gained by looking at the universe this way? We know some theories are wrong, they've been shown to be wrong. Why would we want all our theories to be "true"? How can competing theories both be "true"? Are you simply saying, "When you accept that the universe might be infinite, anything is possible"?

[swansont]

!

Moderator Note

 

Discussion about infinity has been split

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/94310-no-such-thing-as-infinity-in-the-real-world-split/

 

 

[ajb]

I am just saying all the theories that we ever made on the making of the universe might be true if the complexity of the making of the universe is infinite.

i) What does it mean for a theory to be 'true'?

ii) What do you mean by complexity?

iii) What does it mean for complexity to be infinite?

 

These are the main questions/problems with you thinking.

 

First we do not consider theories to be 'true'. A physical theory is a mathematical model of the Universe or more usually some small part thereof. We say that a theory if 'good' if the predictions of phenomena match experiment/observation to some agreed up on accuracy. If the theory does not match nature well, then we say that the theory is 'bad' and it is usually thrown out. One has to be careful with domains of validity and experimental errors etc.

 

Note that truth does not enter the picture here. Moreover, we can construct theories that are 'bad'. For example, in cosmology we have the steady state model.

 

Secondly, without some definition, even just a 'working definition', we cannot really discuss the complexity of the Universe. I do not work in complex systems theory. However, I think that detailed cosmological models are complex systems: they have lots of interacting elements, feedback loops, can be sensitive to initial conditions etc.

 

Maybe you mean something different here?

 

Thirdly, with some measure of complexity chosen you have to argue that this is infinite for the systems you are discussing.

 

If you cannot start to make sense of the above, then we have to question what we are discussing!

[OConnor_LFC]

OP, yes I believe for our human minds it's "infinitely complex". We are resorted to best guesses.

[Strange]

Except they are not guesses. They are well tested hypotheses that become theories (the closest science gets to "truth").

[Theoretical]

In theory, yes.

 

Most creationist believe our Universe is all that there is. How silly. Science destroyed the bible long ago. One example of thousands is that the book of Mark is a forgery. That's a fact. We now know from history that "Mark" spoke of past events that happened hundreds of years later. Forgery back then was a way to get instant attention.

[Sensei]

Who agrees that the universe is infinitely complex? Please answer in the form of yes I do or no I don't and thank you for your participation.

Computer bit can have value 0 or 1.

Do you think it's complex?

 

If you put together 8 of such, you can have 256 different combinations,

If you put together 4.7 billions of such bytes (~38 billions of bits), that's all videos and games ever made (including the all future) and sold or stored on DVD..

 

[math]2^{38,000,000,000}[/math]

Looks like quite a lot of combinations that are possible.

It's enough for the all books ever written in the past, and future (single book would have to have more than 4 million pages to exceed that (uncompressed) size, couldn't be even taken to hand because of weight).

 

1 gram of water has 3.34*10^22 molecules. Each of them can have plentiful different energy states.

Now imagine how many combinations of these molecules can be formed from just 1 gram of water..

[ajb]

Most creationist believe our Universe is all that there is.

 

I though it was quite the opposite. Most, if not all creationts, beleive that the Universe is not all there is. For example, Heaven and Hell 'exist' in Christian teachings.

 

Anyway, I am not quite sure if this has anything to do with complexity.

[Theoretical]

I though it was quite the opposite. Most, if not all creationts, beleive that the Universe is not all there is. For example, Heaven and Hell 'exist' in Christian teachings.

 

Anyway, I am not quite sure if this has anything to do with complexity.

I guess it depends who you ask since the bible is vague about things, but I've never heard a preacher say heaven and hell are outside our universe. Although I've heard plenty of preachers say hell is inside Earth.

[Delta1212]

 

 

Without defining what it means to be infinitely complex then the statement is meaningless. Just repeating it is not a definition.

 

 

 

If you mean infinitely complex in the sense of the multiverse that there are an infinite number of universes, each different, then you still aren't right. You can have an infinite number of theories that don't work. An infinite number of parallel universes have to have the common attribute that the multiverse theory is valid in each of them. So the theory that there is no multiverse would be wrong. QED.

 

Infinity is a tricky concept. There are an infinite number if numbers between 0 and 1. If you're in a situation where the answer you need is outside that range, the availability of the infinite number of possibilities isn't going to help you.

What if there is a multi-multiverse wherein there is one multiverse where there is no multiverse (i.e. Only one universe in that "multiverse")?

[Phi for All]

!

Moderator Note

There's nothing in the OP about religion, so let's stick with mainstream science for this speculation, and leave religion to its own section.

[Hyper]

 

Then you will have to define what you mean by "complexity".

 

And if you think that "all theories can be true" then you think that contradictory theories can be true. Which is, well, an insane idea.

 

 

But these things can be exactly defined. (Unlike your "complexity" which is still undefined.)

Look yeah the question you asked me about the "defining complexity" you should be asking this question yourself.

 

 

Because it depends on how the person see's something for e.g. you might find equation easy but can a newly born does. NO and don't know because that depends on his brain chemistry.

 

But yeah you get the point right complexity is what you think it is, it not the same thing to everyone.

 

 

Sorry I couldn't reply cause I was away and busy.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Hyper

[swansont]

Look yeah the question you asked me about the "defining complexity" you should be asking this question yourself.

Because it depends on how the person see's something for e.g. you might find equation easy but can a newly born does. NO and don't know because that depends on his brain chemistry.

But yeah you get the point right complexity is what you think it is, it not the same thing to everyone.

Sorry I couldn't reply cause I was away and busy.

Not really a scientific concept if it's subjective like that.

[Hyper]

Not really a scientific concept if it's subjective like that.

hey he ask me to define complexity so i did and i used that word cause i couldn't think of any other.

and i forgot the main thing i was gonna say that the define scientific concept lol

[studentlance]

I do not think that is matters whether our universe is infinitely complex or not. The measurements we have till now are limited and are beyond to a certail level. so it is impossible to say.