Who wants to live forever?

[geordief]

First define "wisdom" and then decide if it can have "limits".

 

A quick search on google shows me that "unlimited wisdom" brings up results almost entirely based on religion or "god". (so not a recommendation in my book)

 

To my mind "wisdom" could be defined as our facility to manage knowledge ("facts" ) -a kind of meta-knowledge which can be referred to as a "judgement call" .

 

I think we all know or can suppose that these good judgement calls depend on previous experience and the ability to remove oneself from the passion of the moment..

 

Maybe "lack of passion" can approach an infinite amount.....

Edited April 15, 2016 by geordief

[Prometheus]

First define "wisdom" ...

 

I don't think that's wise...

[geordief]

 

I don't think that's wise...

you are cracking up

[Phi for All]

 

Must have: I don't know what it would mean to be infinitely wise.

 

Maybe wisdom isn't imparted, it's absorbed. Imagine an infinite sponge, capable of soaking up the knowledge of every experience in the universe....

[dimreepr]

I think wisdom resembles knowledge, we will always have something more to learn.

[Phi for All]

I think wisdom resembles knowledge, we will always have something more to learn.

 

For me, wisdom is an emergent property of intuition, or rather fighting against it.

 

If there's a fire in the forest, it might be wise to fight your intuition about putting it out, for the good of the whole forest.

 

Wisdom tells us to offer to cut a baby in half and give the parts to the two women claiming to be the mother.

 

As long as they aren't doing too much harm, it's good to ignore your intuition about breaking up a fight between two people, since it harms their chances of working things out themselves.

[dimreepr]

 

For me, wisdom is an emergent property of intuition, or rather fighting against it.

 

If there's a fire in the forest, it might be wise to fight your intuition about putting it out, for the good of the whole forest.

 

Wisdom tells us to offer to cut a baby in half and give the parts to the two women claiming to be the mother.

 

As long as they aren't doing too much harm, it's good to ignore your intuition about breaking up a fight between two people, since it harms their chances of working things out themselves.

 

 

I think wisdom resembles knowledge, we will always have something more to learn.

 

 

 

Case in point, I’d never considered it from this POV.

 

Intuition tells us it would be the baby’s mother who would naturally object most vociferously, whereas the most appropriate custodian isn’t always the mother but is always the most vociferous objector.

[pzkpfw]

Given my brain is a finite collection of neurons, there's a finite limit to the information it can store.

 

So if I lived forever, I'd reach a point where I couldn't put more information in, and become essentially mentally handicapped as I can remember Pythagoras's theorem but can't remember where the supermarket moved the coffee to, or, I'd need to be able to dump information; say, choose to forget what I learned at school so that I could remember which shelf the coffee is now on.

 

Either that, or, in the far future there might be some man-machine data interface that somehow resolves this ("plug another external hard drive into my head, Martha, I'm going shopping and I heard they did a stock-take last night").

 

 

I don't think sentient creatures would be able to live forever, without going nuts. There comes a point where being alive is pointless.

Edited April 17, 2016 by pzkpfw

[geordief]

 

 

I don't think sentient creatures would be able to live forever, without going nuts. There comes a point where being alive is pointless.

Maybe brainwashing would come to the rescue. I remember vaguely a few years ago it was being suggested it could be used in a beneficial ,and not a sinister way.

 

To follow up on my earlier remark about a "suspension of disbelief" this "living forever" problem seems to apply to "God" (again a vague recollection from which religion I am not sure) who created the world because he was bored..

 

Maybe one of our own progeny whose lifespan became intolerable could resort to "subcontracting" his or her own existence and so having multiple existences .

 

By the way your "pointless" remark can apply at any stage in a (short) life and arguably we get around that feature by means of trivial distractions.

[Prometheus]

 

Maybe wisdom isn't imparted, it's absorbed. Imagine an infinite sponge, capable of soaking up the knowledge of every experience in the universe....

 

A sponge can also leak, especially when squeezed. Maybe i'm just a pessimist.

 

By the way your "pointless" remark can apply at any stage in a (short) life and arguably we get around that feature by means of trivial distractions.

 

Why trivial? If everything in the universe is pointless (i think we're all agreed here there is no grand plan, or meaning, to existence) then any one thing we do is as trivial as anything else in the universe. Trivial only makes sense in contrast to something: if everything is trivial then the word is meaningless as it doesn't discriminate one thing from any other thing.

[geordief]

 

 

 

 

Why trivial? If everything in the universe is pointless (i think we're all agreed here there is no grand plan, or meaning, to existence) then any one thing we do is as trivial as anything else in the universe. Trivial only makes sense in contrast to something: if everything is trivial then the word is meaningless as it doesn't discriminate one thing from any other thing.

I don't disagree. I used the word "arguably" simply (and perhaps misleadingly ) to reflect the point of view of other people who seem to feel that.

 

I can't really give my own point of view ,save to say that it is not a feeling that I have ever had personally and have only encountered its expression via other people

 

I may also have confused(or wrongly interpreted) other peoples' life crises with a more cosmic "what's the point of it all" complaint .......

[Endy0816]

I keep thinking of the song

[Moontanman]

Living forever on the surface of a small planet would get old sooner that you would I bet. Now if I could have the power of Q living forever might be fun but just being a human would be a bitch after a while I am sure.

 

There is a science fiction story about a guy who slept with some powerful man's daughter and the Man took the guy and gave him eternal life (some sort of nano technology, and dropped him on a planet much like the earth when dinosaurs roamed. Every time he would get eaten by the large predators the nano technology would resurrect him out of the pile of droppings he had been digested into. He often got eaten several times a week and he remembered the entire process courtesy of the nano tech that kept him alive, talk about a living hell..

[dimreepr]

There is a science fiction story about a guy who slept with some powerful man's daughter and the Man took the guy and gave him eternal life (some sort of nano technology, and dropped him on a planet much like the earth when dinosaurs roamed. Every time he would get eaten by the large predators the nano technology would resurrect him out of the pile of droppings he had been digested into. He often got eaten several times a week and he remembered the entire process courtesy of the nano tech that kept him alive, talk about a living hell..

 

 

What if the benefit of such a sacrifice outweighs the price?

 

What if, for instance, the powerful man could grant eternal human existence/peace; would you pay the price? And what would drive a man to make such a sacrifice?

 

You're not dead whilst your memory lives on...

[aliceinwonderland]

I don't think sentient creatures would be able to live forever, without going nuts. There comes a point where being alive is pointless.

 

That's what makes it a really tough question for me. Yes, I'd like to enjoy all the possibilities in life without aging, because time is limited right now and we can't do everything we'd like to. But still, and this is the problem, I'd probably not enjoy life anymore as being alive won't mean anything, just as you pointed it out. Right now I live because I'd like to develop myself and maybe leave something good behind when I die. If I had forever to achieve that, I'd turn into a lazy person losing their own sanity.

[Thorham]

Living forever on the surface of a small planet would get old sooner that you would I bet. Now if I could have the power of Q living forever might be fun but just being a human would be a bitch after a while I am sure.

Science and technology keep advancing, you don't know what the future brings.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Thorham

[lightingcloud]

have found a way to be immortal by useing inhibitor rings on your ands ronud your feet u can use the rings to go into cyberspace the inihibitor rings are futuristic like they are light to use with the rings you can use your own body to go throw cyberspace as well in the real world this is my idea

[Phi for All]

have found a way to be immortal by useing inhibitor rings on your ands ronud your feet u can use the rings to go into cyberspace the inihibitor rings are futuristic like they are light to use with the rings you can use your own body to go throw cyberspace as well in the real world this is my idea

 

We usually require things to make at least some sense around here. This makes none.

 

If you think you can support such an idea scientifically, I invite you to start your own thread about it, in Speculations.

[Lyudmilascience]

no I would not want to live forever because I would not want to experience the world ending and be alive for that, I dont want to get killed and not feel the pain from that, I think at some point I would be the one killing myself. I also dont want to experience so many people die throughout my life some people do actually want to live forever my mom does and I will never understand that.

[dimreepr]

 

That's what makes it a really tough question for me. Yes, I'd like to enjoy all the possibilities in life without aging, because time is limited right now and we can't do everything we'd like to. But still, and this is the problem, I'd probably not enjoy life anymore as being alive won't mean anything, just as you pointed it out. Right now I live because I'd like to develop myself and maybe leave something good behind when I die. If I had forever to achieve that, I'd turn into a lazy person losing their own sanity.

 

 

We spend so much of our lives trying to mitigate a fear of the future; the question intended to remove that fear, only to be replaced with a different, but equally future based, fear.

 

If one could wake up every morning without fear, maybe there’s enough time for a little wonder and maybe that wouldn’t get old.

[disarray]

My first point is that I would agree with those who think the topic is 'cumbursomely' broad. There is a place, e.g. 7th grade English, for throwing out a topic just to get people in the habit of creatively expressing themselves, but for discussion purposes, when multiple people are attempting to agree or disagree with a statement, I think it is generally more productive to narrow down the topic sufficiently..otherwise people are discussing at cross purposes...much like asking whether there is God(s) or whether he/she/they/it does exists (which is, after all, a related question). Heck, a huge swath of existential philosophy alone devotes hundereds of published pages to the more specific question of whether an awareness of one's own finitude (i.e., death) somehow (ironically) gives meaning to ones existence.

 

Secondly, the topic is also a sitting duck for tautological responses as well as the Babylonic cross-purposes speculation I referred to above. Of course, there is a general, perhaps inbuilt (e.g. evolutionary) drive to not die. Of course people would like the option of being able to change their minds about the prospect of not dying, if and when life became unbearable, or even when the "costs" seemed to outweigh the benefits, and even if said costs were as abstract as an overwhelming sense of ennui, weltschmerz, or the purposelessness of life. And no doubt it is obvious the teeming throngs since time immemorial have pined after the prospect of eternal life. And no doubt people, if given a choice, would (as with the standard Christian interpretation) want to be "raptured up" in the body that they had in the prime of their life, just so they could look presentable when they entered the pearl gates of eternity. It would seem that the more one narrows down the topic the more tautological the responses become (in the sense that the vast majority of people would more quickly respond with a yes or a no).

 

Which brings me to my third point, which is to wonder (if 'wondering' can be called a point) just what the person who posted this question had in mind....that is, what was his/her purpose in asking the question. Is he/she looking for more information about something, e.g., people's level of happiness, people's interest in immortality (of which the chances of having, as an aside, judging from the behavioral guidelines of most religions, seems to be inversely proportional to the extent of ones immorality), or people's belief that the globe will continue to warm up to the point where they would soon have to build and live in their own proverbial ark just to keep their heads above water, as if God were punishing humans for devouring that prohibited knowledge-boosting fruit. A portentous act, that has,over the centuries, led, some claim, to humankind's over reliance upon material goods, as well as the apparent worship of technological products (aka Mammon) in a fruitless effort to satisfy their every whim and desire rather than to more austerely show an appreciative stewardship for the bounteous natural gifts given to them by a divine entity that has the ability to reward them with immortality...."They could have had it all." (So put away those iphones for goodness sake!)

 

But by now I realize, as I write, that I am just trying at this point to throw in as many hodge-podgish ideas as I can into some sort of murky metaphysical stew, much like Macbeth’s witches on a heath, with no other purpose except to see just what amusing titbit might bubble up from the mix. Until the question is narrowed down, I doubt that my ramblings can answer such questions, however, as to "which grains will grow and which will not," even if I could "look into the seeds of time," or whether I might find myself responding to the question regarding the prospect of immortality in the same way when the sun next rises in the ‘morrow.

 

Would I feel by then that the days stretched out too much – each one the same as the one before, and how would I feel about the prospect that they would continue to do so, tediously, until the end of history..whenever that might be? And how will I feel about the thought that every day that I have lived has been the last day of some other fool’s life, as if each day were a candle flame flickering in the wind only to show me the way to dusty death? Will I feel like blowing out the candle that seemed only yesterday to be much too short? Will I, in short, think perhaps that life has been much like the walking shadow of a poor actor on a deserted stage – someone who has strutted, fretted, and made much ado about nothing? Would I want to then bow out, as if life were nothing more than a story told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, but ultimately meaningless?

 

Or, to quote Eliot, will I wonder in the morning if it "would have been worth it, after all, would it have been worth while, after the sunsets and the dooryards and the sprinkled streets, after the novels, after the teacups, after the skirts that trail along the floor—and this, and so much more?—It is impossible to say just what I mean!"

Edited May 2, 2016 by disarray

[dimreepr]

 

My first point is that I would agree with those who think the topic is 'cumbursomely' broad. There is a place, e.g. 7th grade English, for throwing out a topic just to get people in the habit of creatively expressing themselves, but for discussion purposes, when multiple people are attempting to agree or disagree with a statement, I think it is generally more productive to narrow down the topic sufficiently..otherwise people are discussing at cross purposes...much like asking whether there is God(s) or whether he/she/they/it does exists (which is, after all, a related question). Heck, a huge swath of existential philosophy alone devotes hundereds of published pages to the more specific question of whether an awareness of one's own finitude (i.e., death) somehow (ironically) gives meaning to ones existence.

 

Secondly, the topic is also a sitting duck for tautological responses as well as the Babylonic cross-purposes speculation I referred to above. Of course, there is a general, perhaps inbuilt (e.g. evolutionary) drive to not die. Of course people would like the option of being able to change their minds about the prospect of not dying, if and when life became unbearable, or even when the "costs" seemed to outweigh the benefits, and even if said costs were as abstract as an overwhelming sense of ennui, weltschmerz, or the purposelessness of life. And no doubt it is obvious the teeming throngs since time immemorial have pined after the prospect of eternal life. And no doubt people, if given a choice, would (as with the standard Christian interpretation) want to be "raptured up" in the body that they had in the prime of their life, just so they could look presentable when they entered the pearl gates of eternity. It would seem that the more one narrows down the topic the more tautological the responses become (in the sense that the vast majority of people would more quickly respond with a yes or a no).

 

Which brings me to my third point, which is to wonder (if 'wondering' can be called a point) just what the person who posted this question had in mind....that is, what was his/her purpose in asking the question. Is he/she looking for more information about something, e.g., people's level of happiness, people's interest in immortality (of which the chances of having, as an aside, judging from the behavioral guidelines of most religions, seems to be inversely proportional to the extent of ones immorality), or people's belief that the globe will continue to warm up to the point where they would soon have to build and live in their own proverbial ark just to keep their heads above water, as if God were punishing humans for devouring that prohibited knowledge-boosting fruit. A portentous act, that has,over the centuries, led, some claim, to humankind's over reliance upon material goods, as well as the apparent worship of technological products (aka Mammon) in a fruitless effort to satisfy their every whim and desire rather than to more austerely show an appreciative stewardship for the bounteous natural gifts given to them by a divine entity that has the ability to reward them with immortality...."They could have had it all." (So put away those iphones for goodness sake!)

 

But by now I realize, as I write, that I am just trying at this point to throw in as many hodge-podgish ideas as I can into some sort of murky metaphysical stew, much like Macbeth’s witches on a heath, with no other purpose except to see just what amusing titbit might bubble up from the mix. Until the question is narrowed down, I doubt that my ramblings can answer such questions, however, as to "which grains will grow and which will not," even if I could "look into the seeds of time," or whether I might find myself responding to the question regarding the prospect of immortality in the same way when the sun next rises in the ‘morrow.

 

Would I feel by then that the days stretched out too much – each one the same as the one before, and how would I feel about the prospect that they would continue to do so, tediously, until the end of history..whenever that might be? And how will I feel about the thought that every day that I have lived has been the last day of some other fool’s life, as if each day were a candle flame flickering in the wind only to show me the way to dusty death? Will I feel like blowing out the candle that seemed only yesterday to be much too short? Will I, in short, think perhaps that life has been much like the walking shadow of a poor actor on a deserted stage – someone who has strutted, fretted, and made much ado about nothing? Would I want to then bow out, as if life were nothing more than a story told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, but ultimately meaningless?

 

Or, to quote Eliot, will I wonder in the morning if it "would have been worth it, after all, would it have been worth while, after the sunsets and the dooryards and the sprinkled streets, after the novels, after the teacups, after the skirts that trail along the floor—and this, and so much more?—It is impossible to say just what I mean!"

 

 

 

You’re more than welcome to contribute but if it’s just to sneer you get -1 from me.

 

 

Edit... I've amended my signature by way of an apology, for overlooking the need of a disclaimer.

 

Which brings me to my third point, which is to wonder (if 'wondering' can be called a point) just what the person who posted this question had in mind....that is, what was his/her purpose in asking the question. Is he/she looking for more information about something, e.g., people's level of happiness, people's interest in immortality

 

 

The question is fundamentally about fear, I’m exploring an idea that at any given moment we have nothing to fear of the next given moment (other than in extremis), yet most of us seem to be hostage to an irrational fear of that moment, so happiness does come into it as does anger, satisfaction >insert emotion here< and even fear has its place, if that next moment contains a hungry polar bear.

 

Immortality is meaningless if one is content to accept the next moment for what it contains rather than what one imagines it does. .

Edited May 2, 2016 by dimreepr

[disarray]

@dim reaper

 

Just because I make the observation that narrowing down the topic makes it easier to avoid confusion does not mean that I had any intention of sneering.

 

Indeed, I was merely interested in responding to the question and therefore was offering constructive "criticism" because I wanted to know more about the issue.It is interesting that you mention fear and a bear, as that is the very image used in many a 101 psychology book to illustrate the various theories about fear (e.g., whether body responds first and then signals the brain or vice versa). A common theory, for example, is the Cannon-Bard theory.

 

Now that you have clarified your question, I couldn't agree more....Certainly people's perceptions of the future (as well as the present and past) are colored by their emotions. Also, I would agree that fear is one of the most obvious of these emotions. Stephen Pinker (in his book the Blank Slate) makes the point in general that our perceptions and responses to the world are colored by our instincts. He does mention fear/paranoia in particular, as I recall, as do other writers (particularly in the field of evolutionary psychology), and makes the case that such fear can be traced back to our deep ancestry, e.g., our need to deal with dangerous animals on a regular basis. In particular, many writers cite such atavistic reactions as a likely explanation for the reason that we (our minds and bodies) get so stressed out, even over minor threats in our modern daily lives, such as going to the dentist, or even being late for an appointment. Such innate reactions, it is widely claimed, result in the over stimulation of our nervous system, leading to all sorts of ailments, e.g., heart disease and obesity.

 

I can imagine that some might make make the suggestion that your suspicion that I was sneering at you is just such an example of a social-based overreaction based on such a fear reaction. But at least you did not assume that I was sneering (like a bear), as if that were a fact.

 

I am wondering what your suggestions are about dealing with fear about the future and how such a fear relates to the hypothetical ability of living forever. Are you suggesting, for example, that we embrace the future in a come-what-may attitude as some existentialist writers might suggest? Perhaps our inborn fear of present and future reality can be minimized via meditation, cognitive psychology, etc., etc.

 

I would hope that you would at least agree that many of the comments posted in response to your original thesis post have been way off the mark at times with regards to your interest in the "fear" angle to the topi. I assure you that my only motive was to narrow the compass of the discussion so as to avert further posts that were not germane to the intent of your question. Perhaps I shouldn't have assumed that you wanted posters to more directly address the specific issue you had in mind.

Edited May 2, 2016 by disarray

[dimreepr]

 

I am wondering what your suggestions are about dealing with fear about the future and how such a fear relates to the hypothetical ability of living forever. Are you suggesting, for example, that we embrace the future in a come-what-may attitude as some existentialist writers might suggest? Perhaps our inborn fear of present and future reality can be minimized via meditation, cognitive psychology, etc., etc.

 

 

 

I would suggest ‘embrace the future one can’t control and resist the future one can’.

I shouldn't have assumed that you wanted posters to more directly address the specific issue you had in mind.

 

 

 

I’d rather address a tangent than attempt to pre-empt it.

[Lyudmilascience]

i agree with this statement "people would like the option of being able to change their minds about the prospect of not dying, if and when life became unbearable, or even when the "costs" seemed to outweigh the benefits, and even if said costs were as abstract as an overwhelming sense of ennui, weltschmerz, or the purposelessness of life" but I think if you ask the question would you like to live forever you are not assuming its saying would you like to live forever if you had the option of willingly dyeing, then it wouldn't be forever then you can choose when you die. I wouldn't even want to choose when i dye because i have family members that attempted suicide and im glad they are still alive today that are now not depressed and as far as we know generally happy in life.