Girls More afraid of Maths than Boys.

[studiot]

Glasgow University study.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36110880

 

This study made particular reference to developed countires and those where there is gender equality.

The conclusion is that efforts to attract girls to science, techniology and maths have largely failed and that girls are more likely to suffer 'Maths Anxiety' than boys.

[ajb]

This is interesting. But my question has to be how/if the anxiety relates to actual exam remarks? (This is not stated in the bbc report)

 

I think, based on other things that I have read (I should find some citations really) that girls in school tend to do better at mathematics than boys. This may also be the case at undergraduate studies, but then typically the number of young women studying further drops off.

[studiot]

Thanks for the interest ajb.

I haven't seen the study itself, but It's really difficult to attribute causes to backgrounds.

 

My daughter, (now a Doctor of Medicine) dropped maths after the A-S year (with an A* in the exam), in favour of French and German. She is more interested in people than Science.

Her friend, a chinese girl from a family that ran a clothing business in Shanghai, not only managed straight A*s in double maths, chemistry and physics, but had to teach herself English at the same time, whilst living 6,000 miles form home and working Saturdays in a shop.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Thanks for the interest ajb.

I haven't seen the study itself, but It's really difficult to attribute causes to backgrounds.

 

My daughter, (now a Doctor of Medicine) dropped maths after the A-S year (with an A* in the exam), in favour of French and German. She is more interested in people than Science.

Her friend, a chinese girl from a family that ran a clothing business in Shanghai, not only managed straight A*s in double maths, chemistry and physics, but had to teach herself English at the same time, whilst living 6,000 miles form home and working Saturdays in a shop.

.

 

Did I blink? , when did the , right brain - left brain (preference for issues ) phenomenon , get debunked?

 

I always thought this left brain right brain , link to the male - female preference. This concerning a possible preference for science/math. or art/appearance , was established, was it not ? ( How it Works -- What it looks like, it's appearance )

 

In most of the art groups I attend now in the year 2016 , the ratio of female to male in attendance is a major leaning toward female ( like 6 female to 1 male ) And when I attended Brunel University , then mainly science and engineering based , in the 1960's , girls were like ' gold dust ' .

 

 

Mike

Edited April 23, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

.

 

Did I blink? , when did the , right brain - left brain (preference for issues ) phenomenon , get debunked?

 

 

 

At least 3 years ago

http://www.livescience.com/39373-left-brain-right-brain-myth.html

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

At least 3 years ago

http://www.livescience.com/39373-left-brain-right-brain-myth.html

Having read the quoted research results to do with actual brain scans , it Would be difficult to challenge the findings here.

 

However as the evidence of much difference , as to male and female behaviour , one could posit that 'a notional right brain ' and , 'notional-left brain' are set up in the brain by its own particular pathways .

 

I would call to mind how hard discs used to work , I think or other computer memory , where random access chose available vacant memory , but recorded the location address ( if I have that right ) things I believe did not start from address 0000001 and proceed step by step up the memory , I think the message could be chopped and put all over the place , but able to be reassembled ( I could have this wrong ) . So the brain ' may use notional areas ' which are different by function but not by physical location. ( as visa versa )

 

You have only to look at how most women look and dress, and talk about people, babies , dresses and flowers , and then look at men , to see they ' have a different 'take ' . Talking about motor cars , houses , salaries , and how some record has been broken .

I don't want to go too far down this route on my own or I am likely to get a woman driving down my drive on a JCB Crane giving me ' what for ' .

 

So women are very very creative and take a lot of account as to their looks , men are very very good constructors and engineers , as a rule and end up covered in dirt and grease , looking like nothing on earth. Now exactly where physically these personality resides in the brain , might be up for grabs , but surely I am not the only one to notice the difference ?

 

Mike

Edited April 23, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

Having read the quoted research results to do with actual brain scans , it Would be difficult to challenge the findings here.

 

However as the evidence of much difference , as to male and female behaviour , one could posit that 'a notional right brain ' and , 'notional-left brain' are set up in the brain by its own particular pathways .

 

I would call to mind how hard discs used to work , I think or other computer memory , where random access chose available vacant memory , but recorded the location address ( if I have that right ) things I believe did not start from address 0000001 and proceed step by step up the memory , I think the message could be chopped and put all over the place , but able to be reassembled ( I could have this wrong ) . So the brain ' may use notional areas ' which are different by function but not by physical location. ( as visa versa )

 

You have only to look at how most women look and dress, and talk about people, babies , dresses and flowers , and then look at men , to see they ' have a different 'take ' . Talking about motor cars , houses , salaries , and how some record has been broken .

I don't want to go too far down this route on my own or I am likely to get a woman driving down my drive on a JCB Crane giving me ' what for ' .

 

So women are very very creative and take a lot of account as to their looks , men are very very good constructors and engineers , as a rule and end up covered in dirt and grease , looking like nothing on earth. Now exactly where physically these personality resides in the brain , might be up for grabs , but surely I am not the only one to notice the difference ?

 

Mike

 

 

Have you eliminated the possibility that it is socialization effects, from people who have your attitude that women care primarily about their looks and men are good constructors and engineers? And whose attitudes that these are internal effects rather than external, perpetuate the idea?

 

And also, if there is some internal difference, that it is not a matter of left brain vs right brain?

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Have you eliminated the possibility that it is socialization effects, from people who have your attitude that women care primarily about their looks and men are good constructors and engineers? And whose attitudes that these are internal effects rather than external, perpetuate the idea?

 

And also, if there is some internal difference, that it is not a matter of left brain vs right brain?

.

Well yes . I am only following the previously released information , on the diagnostic research done on the examination of brains , accomplished by ( whoever does ' brain research ' ) . What I am suggesting is ,now that they have changed their mind as to the actual physical location of the ' information ' . It could still be ' notional memory' if that is the right word for it. Because , as I said , the general perception of most people is " that women are definitely different , in their approach to things , than men ( as a rule ) .

 

I have first hand experience of this having lived with 5 women ( four daughters and a wife ) for 30 years . And having lived with my sister prior to that , as well as student years , while I at university in the 1960's when young ladies were showing us young men how pretty they were ! That's enough for any man ! To experience in one lifetime ! I still find them , a complete mystery !

 

What I mean , is " that's enough for any man to attempt to get to grips with what they are ' all about ' ! "

 

Like while I want to do electronics , think about how things work , have tools all over the place to make life easy'er and to hand for convenience . All they want to do is banish me, and all my bits to the shed , and jumble all my tools and electrical bits up , so they look tidy and ' neat ' . But I never know where everything is . And when they are at social functions , I must be in a stiff suit with a nice neck tie , throttling me, while I want to be in an 'open neck shirt ' . And they all to ' to a woman ' want to talk about babies and other people , an stand around looking beautiful , and I want to talk about the latest ideas of the ' cosmos ' , and swing ' to and frow , in a hammock ! '

 

If that is not proof of the difference , " I give up " !

 

Mike

 

Is there a way of hiding my thoughts , If they read this ' they will banish me to an Island somewhere !

 

 

Ps even the grand child is female (childs ) as she ( they ) prances all over me while I am ' trying to ' having a quiet drink in the hammock under the shady tree ! At a wedding of yet another female relation ! Notice my right hand , desperately trying to write some ' cosmic ideas ' while enjoying the swing , in the shade ' still they stand about looking pretty! QED ( quad et. Demo stratum )?

Edited April 24, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

.

Well yes . I am only following the previously released information , on the diagnostic research done on the examination of brains , accomplished by ( whoever does ' brain research ' ) . What I am suggesting is ,now that they have changed their mind as to the actual physical location of the ' information ' . It could still be ' notional memory' if that is the right word for it. Because , as I said , the general perception of most people is " that women are definitely different , in their approach to things , than men ( as a rule ) .

And we're on a science discussion board, so "the general perception of most people" isn't worth the electrons used to display the phrase. We deal in what's been discovered in rigorous investigation.

 

 

I have first hand experience of this having lived with 5 women ( four daughters and a wife ) for 30 years . And having lived with my sister prior to that , as well as student years , while I at university in the 1960's when young ladies were showing us young men how pretty they were ! That's enough for any man ! To experience in one lifetime ! I still find them , a complete mystery !

 

What I mean , is " that's enough for any man to attempt to get to grips with what they are ' all about ' ! "

So they're a complete mystery to you. Then you have no basis to assert any conclusions.

 

Like while I want to do electronics , think about how things work , have tools all over the place to make life easy'er and to hand for convenience . All they want to do is banish me, and all my bits to the shed , and jumble all my tools and electrical bits up , so they look tidy and ' neat ' . But I never know where everything is . And when they are at social functions , I must be in a stiff suit with a nice neck tie , throttling me, while I want to be in an 'open neck shirt ' . And they all to ' to a woman ' want to talk about babies and other people , an stand around looking beautiful , and I want to talk about the latest ideas of the ' cosmos ' , and swing ' to and frow , in a hammock ! '

 

If that is not proof of the difference , " I give up " !

Do you think they wear high-heeled shoes to be comfortable? I know plenty of men who care about how they look. I see sailors preen and primp in the locker room at the gym, worrying about their hair, of which they have almost none.

 

But again: science site. Anecdotes are not evidence. Stop with the anecdotes.

 

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

 

Quote Swansont ( previous post).------------------------

Do you think they wear high-heeled shoes to be comfortable? I know plenty of men who care about how they look. I see sailors preen and primp in the locker room at the gym, worrying about their hair, of which they have almost none.

But again: science site.

----------------------------------------------------------

 

This is your observation . And I have my 30-40 years of observation . Surely that is a part of what science does . ' Observe ' gather evidence in support or contradiction of a thesis previously made by others ( or self )

 

The visible evidence I have provided by way of the previous photo of me with two of my daughters at a wedding reception , my two other daughters and wife being in the crowd in the distance . It is a Non contrived .

 

The women are clearly seen looking delightful and overtly colourful , demonstrating the delight of a young child, and no doubt talking , as are the ladies in the background , discussing " did you know so and so has had another baby " and I am clearly seen clutching a pencil and paper so as to make notes of some latest scientific thought or theory ! Real live scientific observational evidence . ,

 

 

I might add a small amount of ' levity ' to the occasion , in an attempt to make life vaguely pleasurable .

 

Mike

 

Edited April 26, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Thorham]

I still find them , a complete mystery !

 

They're just humans, like us

Edited April 26, 2016 by Thorham

[swansont]

 

This is your observation . And I have my 30-40 years of observation . Surely that is a part of what science does . ' Observe ' gather evidence in support or contradiction of a thesis previously made by others ( or self )

 

 

And I offered an observation that contradicts your thesis. Ignoring it is not scientific.

 

Further, science makes models and relies on rigorous testing, and your observations do not comply with that. Women discussing babies, or worrying about how they look, does not show that this is intrinsic behavior or learned behavior, and in no way shows that they engage in the behavior more than men. That's why anecdotes aren't evidence.

[ajb]

So I guess we all agree that women are differnet... but is this fear of mathematics, which is what we should really be disscussing, learned (so social) or is it biological?

 

It is interesting to note, as I have pointed out, that boys tend not to do so well im mathematics as compared to girls when in school.

[Sirona]

So I guess we all agree that women are differnet... but is this fear of mathematics, which is what we should really be disscussing, learned (so social) or is it biological?

 

It is interesting to note, as I have pointed out, that boys tend not to do so well im mathematics as compared to girls when in school.

I've been reading through this http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0057988 study which attempts to explain gender differences and it's implication in mathematics and reading performance. The study shows that girls achieve higher results in reading and boys achieve higher in math. However, interestingly, the gap is not linked to differences in gender, but to the social and economic conditions. According to Geary and Gijsbert Stoet, when the social and economic climate of the nation is good, the math gap increases and the reading gap decreases. Contrary to when the social and economic climate is bad, the math gap decreases and the reading gap increases.

 

Geary and Gijsbert Stoet had a large study group of one and a half million fifteen year old students across seventy five different nations and these results were consistent.

 

I found the study on Swedish boys particularly interesting as educational policy and practice creators are consistently interested in Swedish education closing the gender gap in maths, science and engineering, however, they fail to highlight that boys in Sweden achieve lower results in reading compared to other similar developed countries.

 

Ajb mentioned a possible biological implication and this Geary and Gijsbert Stoet study suggests that boys have a greater response to social and economic conditions and this extra sensitivity may be biological.

 

Edited April 26, 2016 by Sirona

[studiot]

 

I've been reading through this http://journals.plos...al.pone.0057988 study

 

Thank you for the further information.

Being a boy I had trouble parsing it, so I just looked at the pictures and managed to catch the numbers OK.

 

Edited April 26, 2016 by studiot

[Sirona]

 

Thank you for the further information.

Being a boy I had trouble parsing it, but I managed to catch the numbers OK.

 

I did well in math during high school but didn't choose to study math or science at University, mostly because I was more interested in social science and humanities. I did have more anxiety when it came to math but it wasn't (to my knowledge) due to gender-bias or low expectations from my teacher, it was because I knew I needed to study harder and learn the content because 'winging it' is not an option in math. Obviously I'm not advocating that the gender bias doesn't exist (I am honestly not able to make a sound judgement at this stage) but I don't believe this was my personal experience. There are a lot of articles in recent years in Australia about gender-bias in math and teachers perceiving boys to be better at math than girls; however, this bias can only potentially affect student confidence rather than bias in grading (which is not a problem in math as it is in the humanities and social sciences). The evidence is not particularly convincing though, even though I don't doubt cultural attitudes contribute, but how are they able to quantify it and if so, how significant a role does it play.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Sirona

[swansont]

So I guess we all agree that women are differnet... but is this fear of mathematics, which is what we should really be disscussing, learned (so social) or is it biological?

 

That's the question, and one that should be answered via scientific studies on the subject rather than anecdotes. (Looking at you, Mike)

I did well in math during high school but didn't choose to study math or science at University, mostly because I was more interested in social science and humanities. I did have more anxiety when it came to math but it wasn't (to my knowledge) due to gender-bias or low expectations from my teacher, it was because I knew I needed to study harder and learn the content because 'winging it' is not an option in math. Obviously I'm not advocating that the gender bias doesn't exist (I am honestly not able to make a sound judgement at this stage) but I don't believe this was my personal experience. There are a lot of articles in recent years in Australia about gender-bias in math and teachers perceiving boys to be better at math than girls; however, this bias can only potentially affect student confidence rather than bias in grading (which is not a problem in math as it is in the humanities and social sciences). The evidence is not particularly convincing though, even though I don't doubt cultural attitudes contribute, but how are they able to quantify it and if so, how significant a role does it play.

 

However, while it may not have played out here, there have been studies that show that overall teachers treat boys and girls differently in these classes.

[Sirona]

 

 

However, while it may not have played out here, there have been studies that show that overall teachers treat boys and girls differently in these classes.

I am genuinely interested in this because it's very difficult to test teacher bias based purely on teacher attitude, expectations and treatment compared to looking at teacher bias through grading. Other factors could have an impact, for example, girls may be more sensitive to their teacher's perception of them. I'd like to read some more studies if you are thinking of any in particular. I'm not suggesting teachers don't treat them differently, but how they can accurately test this?

[Strange]

I think there have been some studies that show girls tend to do better at single-sex schools (and boys do worse?) - this might be because they no longer seem themselves being treated differently than the boys. Or because they are not intimidated by the boys. Or ...

[studiot]

 

swansont

However, while it may not have played out here, there have been studies that show that overall teachers treat boys and girls differently in these classes.

 

 

Are you referring to mixed (gender) schools or single sex schools?

[ajb]

My only teaching experience has been at university level. I have not noticed any real difference between the males and females at undergraduate level. A few girls I have taught in the past needed a little more attention than average, but that was more to do with their confidence than actual ability. Not really evidence of anything, but I can beleive that being scared of mathematics even carries over to undergraduate students of mathematics, and that is before it gets really scary at postgrad level!

[swansont]

I am genuinely interested in this because it's very difficult to test teacher bias based purely on teacher attitude, expectations and treatment compared to looking at teacher bias through grading. Other factors could have an impact, for example, girls may be more sensitive to their teacher's perception of them. I'd like to read some more studies if you are thinking of any in particular. I'm not suggesting teachers don't treat them differently, but how they can accurately test this?

 

 

They gave test answers with the names removed to other teachers for evaluation. In the anonymized ones, girls' scores were higher.

 

http://www.npr.org/2015/09/01/436525758/how-teachers-unconscious-bias-play-into-the-hands-ofgender-disparity

 

As with any bias, though, this may vary from culture to culture. But the main point is remembering that biases may exist, and can't be ignored in such discussions.

 

Are you referring to mixed (gender) schools or single sex schools?

 

 

I believe these were mixed gender.

[Unity+]

 

 

She added: "If you think about maths, there is always a right or a wrong answer. Whereas in some subjects such as English, there aren't always right or wrong answers.

I don't see how this really is a problem. The only thing this study reveals is how boys and girls think differently with respect to the attitude of subject and the abstractness involved in it.

 

 

 

"So if you can't get that exact answer, the teacher can just say, 'Well you don't know what you're doing, you're not smart.'

This more of a problem with a bad teacher rather than the subject itself. However, I rarely see this happening, especially in University, if at all. In fact, a majority of the time, I see professor cater towards the female audience, both from male and female professors.

 

As with any bias, though, this may vary from culture to culture. But the main point is remembering that biases may exist, and can't be ignored in such discussions.

Of course they shouldn't be ignored, but if there is no significant affect on the population that this bias has on the population, it is pointless to bring it up as a sign of a larger problem.

However, while it may not have played out here, there have been studies that show that overall teachers treat boys and girls differently in these classes.

Whether that is a positive or negative is dependent on the attitude of treatment. For one thing, it could be a result of teacher experience with students in the past. For all we know it could be due to chivalry. Thing is, this study really doesn't lead to any other conclusion besides "girls are afraid of math." The article seems to imply that there is a systematic problem rather than something that is due to biological difference in males and females.

[swansont]

Of course they shouldn't be ignored, but if there is no significant affect on the population that this bias has on the population, it is pointless to bring it up as a sign of a larger problem.

 

The effect was measurable, so in that sense it was significant.

 

Whether that is a positive or negative is dependent on the attitude of treatment. For one thing, it could be a result of teacher experience with students in the past. For all we know it could be due to chivalry. Thing is, this study really doesn't lead to any other conclusion besides "girls are afraid of math." The article seems to imply that there is a systematic problem rather than something that is due to biological difference in males and females.

There's no data at all to suggest that this was due to biological differences. When you do a blind test and it differs from the non-blind one, that's evidence of bias. Not a difference in the subjects.

[Sirona]

 

 

They gave test answers with the names removed to other teachers for evaluation. In the anonymized ones, girls' scores were higher.

 

http://www.npr.org/2015/09/01/436525758/how-teachers-unconscious-bias-play-into-the-hands-ofgender-disparity

 

As with any bias, though, this may vary from culture to culture. But the main point is remembering that biases may exist, and can't be ignored in such discussions.

 

Perhaps you can explain further, Swansnot. I am genuinely interested in possible teacher bias in math purely based on test scores. I will attempt to explain my concern, however do keep in mind my understanding of math is limited to senior high school and therefore I am not arguing or confident in my explanation, I am merely seeking further elaboration. Based on our math exams, there is only a very slight opportunity for teachers to be biased. For example, if you are asked to prove something; you need to start with a premises. Let's say in the geometry section of the exam, you're asked to prove that two triangles are congruent. The student could leave a gap in their proof, or a more complicated proof may be required, or the teacher may expect it to be done a particular way (I have had this problem and needed to argue for an extra mark). Or, the question could ask you to estimate the number of cars in Sydney and provide some methodology and your reasoning; your reasoning can be objective. I suppose the subjectivity comes into effect most when the student has the wrong answer but good reasoning; how do you allocate partial marks in this case and is that where the possible gender bias can come from? How many marks could they lose potentially if the teacher for arguments sake was biased?

Edited April 27, 2016 by Sirona