Right or left why homeless ?

[oldtobor]

Why is housing always a problem ? In the socialist/communist societies, everyone was supposed to be given a home, but in all those societies homes were scarce and/or very costly and they had a waiting period of decades. Why on earth would a socialist regime not produce the one most fundamental item of equality HOMES FOR EVERYONE? That is really amazing, at least this is one thing they could have done.

 

If you look at the big three USA, Europe and Japan, only the US has a decent situation. Homelessness in the US is simply an "ideological" choice the americans like because if you are poor you should be punished by not having a home. The US could easily solve its homeless problem, but the people love the idea of seeing how the homeless are punished. The US however is the only country that has any decent hoUsing costs for most of the people.

 

Europe and Japan absolutely suck because there are few homes that are extremely expensive and it is actually very hard to buy a home in these places. Japan really takes the cake, then they complain that their GDP doesn't grow! If all your money goes to paying for a little room, whats left ?

 

It is amazing that after all the right and left wing hype, no one can solve the housing problem! WHY IS IT SO HARD TO CREATE AT LEAST A MINIMUM CONDITION FOR HOUSING EVEN IN THE RICHEST COUNTRIES?

[Dak]

i believe that japan is struggling to fully pull itself out of a resession, which may have caused it what with the generally screwed up economy, oh and the overpopulation aswell (limited products + many buyers = high prices). parts of europe are extremely cheap, czech and spain for example. england is rediculaously expensive, but then everything is in england. america, i have no idea y its so expensive, possibly lack of space? in the cities atleast.

[ydoaPs]

i like the part about punishing people for being poor.

[Aardvark]

i like the part about punishing people for being poor.

 

Yes.

 

How dare they not have enough money? It's all their fault that the economy is in the state it is.

[Phi for All]

Homelessness in the US is simply an "ideological" choice the americans like because if you are poor you should be punished by not having a home. The US could easily solve its homeless problem, but the people love the idea of seeing how the homeless are punished.

Can you please elaborate on this before your thread takes a course you probably didn't intend?

[Pangloss]

I love the idea of watching them suffer. I live for it. I'd buy season tickets if I could, just to see them suffer pain and agony all the time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh wait, I thought we were talking about the Yankees. My bad.

[DreamLord]

I dunno about other countries, but I think the biggest problem for the U.S. is the pure capitalism. The rich only get richer, and the poor only get poorer.

[Aardvark]

The rich only get richer, and the poor only get poorer.

 

Good point.

 

Expect for the fact that it is factually completely wrong.

[Coral Rhedd]

If you look at the big three USA' date=' Europe and Japan, only the US has a decent situation. Homelessness in the US is simply an "ideological" choice the americans like because if you are poor you should be punished by not having a home. The US could easily solve its homeless problem, but the people love the idea of seeing how the homeless are punished. The US however is the only country that has any decent hoUsing costs for most of the people.

[/quote']

 

I am going to respond to this paragraph in your post because it is the only one to which I feel I can speak. I have been homeless.

 

In the year 2000, my daughter graduated from high school and immediately put into action her decision to leave town and move to a city with more opportunity. The town where I live is a very poor one. The poorest city in one of the poorest states in the U.S. Because she had been my whole world, I instantly began to feel the burden of enormous loss.

 

At the same time, business plans that I had made failed to bear fruit, in part because I had been struggling with major depression for many years. I was not making good decisions. One of my other illnesses left me with no energy.

 

In addition, I felt the medication I had been on for years, Paxil, was making me increasingly more depressed and impacting my short term memory. Every time I complained to the Certified Nurse Practioner at the local clinic that the medication was not helping my depression, she upped the dosage.

 

To save my memory, which I felt was getting increasingly worse, I stopped taking the Paxil cold turkey. All of the drug companies advertising when I first started taking it had said it was nonaddictive, so I thought I would be safe to just stop it. For almost five years on this medication, I had had obsessive, intrusive suicidal thoughts. I thought the medication was contributing to this. I just wanted these thoughts to go away. I wanted control of my mind back. I was, without a doubt, ready to choose death rather than go on like I was.

 

To save money, I moved in as a housemate with a woman with whom I was acquainted. Shortly after I moved in, she immediately demanded more money for rent. I had absolutely no energy to move out, so I sold some gold coins to pay her more. My judgment at this this was very poor. I sold the coins on a Friday and did not bank the remaining cash. Instead, I put it in the lining of a pillow.

 

Shortly after this, my housemate began to make clear that she wanted more than a housemate relationship with me. To this day, I am not clear on her intentions, but she became very angry when I sought the privacy of my room, and she talked constantly to me when I was trying to watch the evening news and became bitterly angry when I said that I only wanted to watch the evening news without conversation. (It was my television, BTW.)It seemed as if she was determined to have my affection and approval. But she went about this so strangely She began to invade my space by coming into my bedroom at night and saying she wanted to be with me because she was lonely. (I am straight, and she would not have interested me if I weren't.) To shorten this story, we got into an argument about her invasion of my privacy and she struck me.

 

I called the police, at which time she demanded that I leave. When I needed the money -- which I thought was still in the pillow -- I found out it was gone. So I had almost no money and every morning I would wake up crying before I was fully awake. I began to make serious plans to kill myself -- including updating my will and using what little money I had left to rent a storage unit so that stuff my daughter had left in my care and things that I wanted her to have could go into it. My only remaining problem was my dog. I was about to be homeless but I had no home for him.

 

I can remember being very obsessed with the responsibility I had for him. I had gotten him when he was ten months old from a woman who was about to send him to the pound. I love him and there was no way I would let him come to harm. I actually called a crisis hotline because I was so distressed about what to do about my dog. I knew enough not to mention that I was suicidal. However, the crisis worker asked if I was feeling hopeless and I said that I was. Immediately, the line went dead and I feared she had called the police. She called right back and I asked her if she had called to police to come to my address and she said that she had.

 

I knew if I went to the hospital (against my will) that the housemate would not take care of my dog, so I simply put a leash on him, got what little money I had left, and took my dog for a long 6am walk. I did not take the car because I knew it was identifiable to the police. But a person walking her dog is sort of ordinary. I did not go back for my car until two hours later. I just got in it and drove away. I lived in the car a couple of days with the dog until I could locate a friend who would keep him. I then checked myself into a homeless shelter for mentally ill people.

 

I spent six months in that shelter. I told them I had no money, but I had a little money in the glove compartment of my car which I would use to pay the people who were keeping my dog to feed him and keep him.

 

A little prior this time, I had applied for full disability benefits. Multiple disabilities made me a good candidate. When my disability was accepted, I found a place to rent, left the shelter and got my dog back. In all this time, I never really let my daughter know my true circumstances. I knew that she wanted me to let her go and so I did. It was important that I did not keep her tied to me by illness.

 

Recovery from my complete nervous breakdown has been a long road. Despite doctors pushing me to take SSRIs again and diagnosing me as Bipolar II, I decided to affect my own recovery. I am now financially stable. I work. I have come to identify my depression as distinctly seasonal and I treat it with diet, exercise, and supplements.

 

I now know what my illness was connected to: I have fibromyalgia, which affects my short term memory. I have Seasonal Affective Disorder, which makes winters very difficult for me. I have ADD, which also affects my short term memory and executive functioning. I took SSRIs, which are like poison for my mind, and they affected my judgment and memory.

 

I can now think. I can now feel. I can now make good decisions.

 

However, I did learn a great deal about homeless people. Some do "choose" homelessness, because they cannot function in society. Many are substance abusers. In the shelter where I lived, only I and one other woman did not abuse drugs or alcohol. However, many people who are homeless are called dual diagnosis because they have both a mental illness and a substance abuse problem. Most often, they have used drugs or alcohol to self-medicate their illness.

 

Illness, physical or mental, is the number one reason people are homeless. Uninsured people who have high medical costs can lose their homes.

 

Another reason for homelessness is domestic abuse. One vicious domestic abuser can cause his/her spouse to avoid going to work for fear of being killed. People end up homeless when they cannot report to work.

 

Another reason is PTSD, an illness that causes incapacitating flashbacks. Our veterans often suffer from this, as do physical and sexual assault victims.

 

Are people homeless because they want to be? Because they are too lazy to work? I now have a job working with disabled people -- many of whom are homeless. I can tell you that I have not met one of them who does not wish for a different life. Many struggle against incredible odds to become productive members of society.

 

Oh sure, they may talk tough sometimes. People who have been on the streets awhile may cling to the illusion that they are rebels or outcasts. They may tell you they have rejected a society that has rejected them. I don't buy it. I think when they sleep, they dream of home.

[-Demosthenes-]

Yes.

 

How dare they not have enough money? It's all their fault that the economy is in the state it is.

I can see expensive housing as a problem...but how is this an intentional punishment? I truely don't see how.

[Phi for All]

I am going to respond to this paragraph in your post because it is the only one to which I feel I can speak. I have been homeless.

Thank you Coral Rhedd. I hoped it helped you to write that as much as it helped me to read it.

 

It is clear to me that a national healthcare program would help us in the US more than a national housing program. I also would like to see a national campaign for cleaning up this country again. I'm a big fan of the broken window theory. Neglect breeds crime. Show criminals that people care about their neighborhoods and they go elsewhere.

 

Most here are too young to remember the national anti-littering campaign that then-First Lady Lady Bird Johnson spearheaded. It was so successful that, to this day, I can't stand to see people throw trash on the ground. Sometimes I think politicians don't want the citizenry coming together in a common cause like that anymore. It shows us how powerful and effective we can still be.

[bascule]

i like the part about punishing people for being poor.

 

Capitalism is a game: the winners get rewarded with decadent luxury; the losers get punished by living in destitute poverty. Now if only people would wake up and realize that we shouldn't be playing a game with other people's lives...

[Aardvark]

I can see expensive housing as a problem...but how is this an intentional punishment? I truely don't see how.

 

I was being sarcastic, the idea that it is an intentional punishment seems both factually wrong and morally depraved.

[Aardvark]

Recovery from my complete nervous breakdown has been a long road. Despite doctors pushing me to take SSRIs again and diagnosing me as Bipolar II, I decided to affect my own recovery. I am now financially stable. I work. I have come to identify my depression as distinctly seasonal and I treat it with diet, exercise, and supplements.

 

That was very brave of you, but also very sensible. All to offten the prevalent attitude to mental illness is to prescribe pills. Then if that doesn't work simply prescribe some more.

 

Often these simply mask the problems rather than provide a real solution. If you are able to regain control of your circumstances by means other than pills then you have my respect. I can appreciate how difficult things can be and how easy it can be to look for a chemical answer.

 

Another reason for homelessness is domestic abuse. One vicious domestic abuser can cause his/her spouse to avoid going to work for fear of being killed. People end up homeless when they cannot report to work.

 

This is a problem unrelated to economic arguments, it seems to be a fact of life that a great many people think it is acceptable, even praiseworthy to behave in a brutal, bullying fashion to others. There seems to be something entrenched in human nature that revels in cruelty and petty tyranny.

 

I don't think there are any simple answers. Just a matter of trying to be individually decent and not turning a blind eye.

[oldtobor]

The US is rich enough to spend at least a minumum amount for a minimum size modest home (1 small room per person) and at least minumum health care at a low price for the truly poor. No administration whether left or right has ever proposed so, because it seems the people don't like any kind of minimum "gifts". This will never change and has actually gotten worse in the US in the last decades. But aside from this, the US has living costs and a situation for low cost housing that is greatly better than any other country. Maybe only the scandinavian countries have something comparable. The real point is if you make a minumum wage 800 dollars a month you should find a modest home for rent at 400 dollars a month and this is possible only on the US.

[john5746]

Why is housing always a problem ? In the socialist/communist societies, everyone was supposed to be given a home, but in all those societies homes were scarce and/or very costly and they had a waiting period of decades. Why on earth would a socialist regime not produce the one most fundamental item of equality HOMES FOR EVERYONE? That is really amazing, at least this is one thing they could have done.

 

Because a socialist regime or any government doesn't 'produce' anything. The people produce things.

 

If you look at the big three USA' date=' Europe and Japan, only the US has a decent situation. Homelessness in the US is simply an "ideological" choice the americans like because if you are poor you should be punished by not having a home. The US could easily solve its homeless problem, but the people love the idea of seeing how the homeless are punished. The US however is the only country that has any decent hoUsing costs for most of the people.[/quote']

 

This is an exaggeration, but somewhat true. From childhood, people seek justice. We like to see people get what they deserve. No fun seeing people cheat to make good grades, while we study hard, etc. The problem lies in dehuminizing the homeless or other 'groups'. We assume they are lazy, etc and 'deserve' it. In some cases it may be true, in others it isn't true.

 

It is amazing that after all the right and left wing hype' date=' no one can solve the housing problem! WHY IS IT SO HARD TO CREATE AT LEAST A MINIMUM CONDITION FOR HOUSING EVEN IN THE RICHEST COUNTRIES?[/quote']

 

In America at least, I would rephrase the question into: WHY IS IT SO HARD TO EDUCATE AMERICANS INTO AT LEAST A MINIMAL UNDERSTANDING OF SAVING AND INVESTING VS SPENDING AND CONSUMPTION?

 

Many people spend their money on cars, TV's, PC's, Games, etc, but can't 'afford' to own a home.

[Coral Rhedd]

The US is rich enough to spend at least a minumum amount for a minimum size modest home (1 small room per person) and at least minumum health care at a low price for the truly poor. No administration whether left or right has ever proposed so, because it seems the people don't like any kind of minimum "gifts". This will never change and has actually gotten worse in the US in the last decades. But aside from this, the US has living costs and a situation for low cost housing that is greatly better than any other country. Maybe only the scandinavian countries have something comparable. The real point is if you make a minumum wage 800 dollars a month you should find a modest home for rent at 400 dollars a month and this is possible only on the US.

 

So interesting that you chose those figures. That is very much what many are faced with in Southern New Mexico:

 

$800 wages

-400

=400

-100 for utilities

=300

-225 food, toilet paper, toothpaste, etc.

=75

-35 dollars for gas to get to work or other trans.

=$40

 

That $40 dollars would have to cover any emergency: dental, medical, car breaks down.

 

and all clothing and all school supplies if there are children

 

and maybe some savings to take care of lost wages if there is illness because hourly workers to do not get paid sick leave.

 

However, the interesting question that you raise is the idea of "gifts." If there are no jobs, then the goverment creates "pretend" jobs -- sometimes at training wages so that no one is getting something for nothing. This requires that welfare mothers work jobs that pay less than the cost of childcare. If they do not take these jobs, they lose their "benefits." If they cannot support their children -- and provide them with adequate childcare -- they can lose their children, who will then be placed in foster care so that they can be reared by a series of strangers who will be paid for taking care of them -- more than their mothers would ever have gotten in "benefits."

 

Such a system!

[ydoaPs]

The US is rich enough...

how much money do you think the US has?

[Phi for All]

No administration whether left or right has ever proposed so, because it seems the people don't like any kind of minimum "gifts". This will never change and has actually gotten worse in the US in the last decades.

Here is one of the biggest problem with gifts. There are those who genuinely need a helping hand, and my heart and my tax dollars gladly go out to them in times of trouble. But there are far more people who are simply opportunistic or lazy. I'm not making this judgement without experience.

 

I once did some HVAC maintenance work on a government subsidy housing project. I had to replace some registers (the adjustable metal diverters that direct the flow of air from floor heating vents) and thermostats in some 30 apartments where the past tenants had stolen them upon moving out. I was appalled at the way these people had taken care of the homes the government provided at low-or-no-cost. Granted, the ones I went to were probably the worst of the lot, but what I saw was disgusting. There was no pride evident anywhere in these homes.

 

I realize that some of these people were not at the high points of their lives, but I can't help but think they would have taken better care if they had worked hard to own that home. I think many people resent having to be given something and take out their aggression on the gift itself.

[Aardvark]

I once did some HVAC maintenance work on a government subsidy housing project. I had to replace some registers (the adjustable metal diverters that direct the flow of air from floor heating vents) and thermostats in some 30 apartments where the past tenants had stolen them upon moving out. I was appalled at the way these people had taken care of the homes the government provided at low-or-no-cost. Granted' date=' the ones I went to were probably the worst of the lot, but what I saw was disgusting. There was no pride evident anywhere in these homes. [/quote']

 

I had a very similiar experience doing building work on an Aboriginal community.

 

Some new houses were being paid for by the government so the materials and some workers were sent out to put them up. The reciprents of the houses showed no respect or gratitude. Before we were even finished their was vandalism, rubbish strewn everywhere and things going missing. The prevailing attitude seemed to be that it was all for free so who cares?

 

I'm convinced that handouts don't work. The help generally doesn't go to those who really need it and it strips people of self respect and dignity.

[husmusen]

Phiforall:

"I realize that some of these people were not at the high points of their lives, but I can't help but think they would have taken better care if they had worked hard to own that home. "

 

I would need to know more about the situation to definitivly comment.

But I'll mention a few caveats.

1. If these people were clinically depressed, no, it would not have made

the slightest differance wether they owned the homes or not.

 

2. Did anyone teach these people how you clean houses? Or did they

just assume that such knowledge is automatic?

 

3. Were there clauses in the agreement that prevented maintainance?

I know of a situation in Australia where a retarded council basically said

"You don't own these houses, you make any repairs or alterations and

you can consider yourself evicted."

 

So they notified the council so they could send people around and

so stuff went unrepaired for months.

 

4. Long term poverty can inculcate unhealthy attitudes,as can long term

excessive wealth (Ordering take away to be flown by supersonic jet

across the atlantic seem odd to anyone? Bottled water for a mongrel dog?,

Golden rings in pigs snouts?). Putting the boot in is rarely constructive.

 

5. Sufferers of Psychosis and Schizophrenia are someimes not very good at the requirements of daily living. Niether are people suffering advanced

heart disease, but people don't judge them for that.

(Because, as we all know, no one chooses Heart Disease, but there are

diets and excercise that can minimise psychosis and schizophrenia )

 

I don't know the situation you were in, or what had happened there,

for all I know they may indeed have been complete lardass slobs.

But they may not have and it's really dangerous to make assumptions.

 

Cheers.

[Coral Rhedd]

In my experience, landlords generally act a little differently to the poor and especially those on "handouts." With what is called "Section 8" rent assistance in the U.S., the government takes absolutely no responsibility for landlord-tenant relations. The landlords own the property but beyond meeting certain basic requirements (which they often flout), they can treat their tenants with no dignity whatsoever. They do not comply with disability law in such things as accessibility of common areas and allowing theraputic animals and service animals. Contrary to the law, they try to collect pet deposits or even deny disabled people housing.

[husmusen]

Hi Coral,

I've been close enough to have an idea of what you went through.

I'm glad you made it through , I don't know what it's like in the U.S.

but in this country once your homeless it's hard to get out and not a lot

do.

 

There is this sharp cut-off period(about 20 weeks), after which only

about 1% will regain housing.

 

This is because of structural things like housing references that

keep people out.

Like rental databases, the owning/leasing of a house and bank acccount being necessary to obtain any gov't benefit, and so-on.

Also some kids are born homeless, so they don't have a birth certificate,

that creates huge headaches.

 

The government in .au has been divesting itself of social justice

issues, so the charities are groaning under the weight, plus the

Salvos had their main depot arsoned last year which really hurt them.

 

And ofcourse without a registered address the homeless can't vote.

So therefore no priority.

 

The people running the charities, St Vincents, Brotherhood etc,

are quite worried about third generation homelessness, is that a

big problem in the U.S.?

 

'Contrary to the law, they try to collect pet deposits or even deny disabled people housing.'

That sucks, there are laws again that here, and the Blind Association is

utterly militant about enforcing them(as they should be).

 

Cheers.

 

P.S. How are things for you now?

I'm fine, but I had an MS scare a few weeks ago(turned out it was a

more benign condition), so I'm all too aware that one is only an accident

or two away from poverty. (MS would have royally screwed up my nursing job).

[Coral Rhedd]

Hi Coral' date='

I've been close enough to have an idea of what you went through.

I'm glad you made it through , I don't know what it's like in the U.S.

but in this country once your homeless it's hard to get out and not a lot

do.

 

There is this sharp cut-off period(about 20 weeks), after which only

about 1% will regain housing.

 

This is because of structural things like housing references that

keep people out.

Like rental databases, the owning/leasing of a house and bank acccount being necessary to obtain any gov't benefit, and so-on.

Also some kids are born homeless, so they don't have a birth certificate,

that creates huge headaches.

[/quote']

 

The big problem here seems to be the Public Housing and Section 8 waiting lists. They are three years long in many areas. Here, even families with children can only be sheltered about a year before they are expected to have all their ducks in a row. This leaves a big service gap. So it is back to the streets for many.

 

The government in .au has been divesting itself of social justice

issues, so the charities are groaning under the weight, plus the

Salvos had their main depot arsoned last year which really hurt them.

 

The goverment here, under the tender guidance of George Bush's "compassionate conservatism" have been doing the pretty much the same thing. Sorry to here about the arson. Private charities and religious organizations do wonderful things.

 

And ofcourse without a registered address the homeless can't vote.

So therefore no priority.

 

Here they can use a shelter address to register if they are sheltered. Some good folks offer rides or buses to the polls.

 

The people running the charities, St Vincents, Brotherhood etc,

are quite worried about third generation homelessness, is that a

big problem in the U.S.?

 

Yes, and especially as it relates to single parenthood. Sometimes cultures are all but destroyed by it. I live in a largely Hispanic city. In times past, girls who got pregnant usually married. The Church and the parents made sure of that. There may have been a few shotgun weddings. Now, young men actually ask their girlfriend to have babies "for" them and they see this alone as confirmation of their manhood.

 

'Contrary to the law, they try to collect pet deposits or even deny disabled people housing.'

 

That sucks, there are laws again that here, and the Blind Association is

utterly militant about enforcing them(as they should be).

 

There is a movement afoot (I am rather active in it.) to recognise the importance of animals as "companion animals" and a stabilizing influence in the lives of depressed people.

 

P.S. How are things for you now?

I'm fine, but I had an MS scare a few weeks ago(turned out it was a

more benign condition), so I'm all too aware that one is only an accident

or two away from poverty. (MS would have royally screwed up my nursing job).

 

I am glad the MS turned out to be only a scare. A friend of mine is currently waiting to hear if this is her diagnosis.

 

I am doing pretty well lately. I recently had a most incredible bit of luck. An uncle (quite old) I scarcely knew died and it turned out he was amazingly rich. Guess who is one of the heirs.

[husmusen]

"especially as it relates to single parenthood,"

 

Interesting, over here families are the worst affected,

usually it's either mum or dad is very I'll and the well parent and

kids iare in the front of the car.

But we have something called the sole parent pension,

an expanded version of the widows pension, that keeps a lot of

sole parents from homelessness.

 

I think It's overwhelmingly a good thing, but we are starting to see a

small problem, there are a few (IMHO silly) girls who have taken a,

well not macho but, to coin a word 'femcho' attitude.

"I don't need a man, I can do it all myself", and see this as some sort

of validation of womanhood.

 

I think it's unwise, not in a holier-than-thou sense, just practical,

starting without a failsafe is tempting fate and that goes for the

men you were talking about who walk off too.

 

Oh I forgot the other big cause of homelessness is the 'breaching system'

where they take a zero tolerance to the most minor mistakes in

forms and remove 18%, 27%, 51%, and then all income for 2 months.

They want to extend that to the disability pension.

So if a psychosis sufferer is a day late(or early) with there form,

bang! you got 'breached'. But I'd better not get started on that,

I just feel we have a big enough problem in this country with the

.gov manufacturing additonal homelessness.

 

"I am glad the MS turned out to be only a scare. A friend of mine is currently waiting to hear if this is her diagnosis."

 

You and me both.

Best of luck to your friend.

 

I've enjoyed this chat.

 

Sadly, the "physical" world summons.

Cheers.