Right or left why homeless ?

[Pangloss]

It's always somebody's fault, right? Lack of knowledge, insanity, the landlord, the government, George Bush.... Always a ready excuse. And if you disagree, well, there must be something wrong with you -- you're just not compassionate enough.

 

It's wierd how we just sort of know intuitively that this is wrong, yet we do it anyway. Like parents pampering their children. You know it'll make them complacent, but the idea of them having to succeed from adversity is just too horrible to allow.

[darth tater]

People are a little like electricity in that they take the path of least resistance.

 

It is easier to blame someone else than it is to blame the person in the mirror.

 

Looking for a helping hand?

 

Try the ones on the ends of your arms.

[Phi for All]

1. If these people were clinically depressed, no, it would not have made the slightest differance wether they owned the homes or not.

I had no contact with the former tenants, I only saw the places where they lived and raised their families for a time.

2. Did anyone teach these people how you clean houses? Or did they

just assume that such knowledge is automatic?

Part of the agreement in accepting such housing is a duty to keep health department standards for cleanliness. I think such knowledge was assumed. I guess I also made the mistake of assuming that anybody would realize that when enough grease accumulates on the countertop next to the stove, cleaning it up will allow you to actually use that countertop again.

3. Were there clauses in the agreement that prevented maintainance?

No.

4. Long term poverty can inculcate unhealthy attitudes, as can long term excessive wealth.

Such as apathy regarding the conditions in which you live. This is my whole point. But I would disagree with the excessive wealth part if that wealth was hard-earned. People who come into sudden wealth they didn't earn can fall prey to lack of pride in their efforts as well. People who order transatlantic takeout are not usually those who have worked their ass off for the money it requires.

5. Sufferers of Psychosis and Schizophrenia are someimes not very good at the requirements of daily living.

Again, I had no contact with the former tenants.

I don't know the situation you were in, or what had happened there,

for all I know they may indeed have been complete lardass slobs.

But they may not have and it's really dangerous to make assumptions.

I made no judgements or assumptions about the people other than to say they treated their gift poorly. I further attributed this treatment to the fact that they were handed this gift and felt no pride possibly because they had not worked hard to earn it.

I am doing pretty well lately. I recently had a most incredible bit of luck. An uncle (quite old) I scarcely knew died and it turned out he was amazingly rich. Guess who is one of the heirs.

Congratulations! Something tells me that although you have seen the very situations hasmusen is talking about, from the poverty to the medications, you will probably not be ordering fish and chips to be flown over from London.

[husmusen]

Pangloss:

"It's always somebody's fault, right?"

 

No, last time I checked there was no known way to reliably contract or

give someone a serious mental illness. Sometimes shit happens.

 

But when it does, we are given a choice.

One can walk away with our fingers in our ears and humming real loud.

One can try and help(that may or may not be possible).

Or one can put the boot in.

That is your choice that you must make as we make ours.

 

People in the real world get homeless in basically three ways,

1) They screwed up.

2) They got screwed.

3) They got unlucky.

 

Usually it's various combos of the above, each person is unique.

 

How we respond to that is *our* choice.

Choices, consequences, and responsibility.

 

Cheers.

[Pangloss]

That's all well and good, but the issue is whether (and how much) to force people to take care of the issue. Not ask. Force.

[husmusen]

Ohh, I missed yours darthtater.

 

I must say I find your post a tad immature.

 

"People are a little like electricity in that they take the path of least resistance."

 

Ohh if only that were true. You have no idea how much people

make things hard for themselves, no idea.

 

"It is easier to blame someone else than it is to blame the person in the mirror."

 

You're right there, it's much easier to blame the emaciated guy you see on

the street, than ask yourself what the demands of the human being require you to do in such a situation.

 

And I have no doubt there are metho drinkers convinced they don't

have a problem with alchohol(apart from it's scarcity), that it's not

their fault.

 

But the wonderful thing is you don't have to worry about their choices,

only yours.

 

"Looking for a helping hand?

Try the ones on the ends of your arms."

 

Is it good to make flippant comments about things one knows nothing

about?

But I'll pass your comments on, only it might be a bit hard, you see

some of the homeless, they havent got any arms.

[husmusen]

pangloss:

 

"That's all well and good, but the issue is whether (and how much) to force people to take care of the issue. Not ask. Force."

 

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on what you mean by that.

 

I was not proposing force.

I don't know about Florida but we have an elected democratic

government. And as a citizen in such a state, I have been expressing

my rightful views that the current actions of government are making

homelessness a biger problem not a smaller one.

 

In the meantime because the cogs of government move slowly,

it will fall on private citizens to do what they can.

Again I don't see any force.

[husmusen]

Phiforall:

I guess I also made the mistake of assuming that anybody would realize that when enough grease accumulates on the countertop next to the stove, cleaning it up will allow you to actually use that countertop again.

 

Relax, I'm not having a go at you.

Infact I'll say that's a very natural mistake for someone who has no

experience of ABI rehab. But I don't know the specifics I'm just warning

about hasty conclusions so I can't say they weren't slobs I don't know

any more than you.

 

 

But I would disagree with the excessive wealth part if that wealth was hard-earned.

 

Me too, 100%. I was actually thinking of the Hilton Sisters and Anna Smith.

Also I was implying correlation not a 100% causality.

Being rich does not compel you to become nuts, just as being poor

doesn't force you into depression.

 

Think of it like this, exposure to TB doesn't ensure infection.

Yet we know TB is causitive.

So the fact that some people are exposed and don't get it, does not

mean it's ok to be exposed and the more heavily you are, they worse your

odds are.

 

I made no judgements or assumptions about the people other than to say they treated their gift poorly. I further attributed this treatment to the fact that they were handed this gift and felt no pride possibly because they had not worked hard to earn it.

 

Here is one of the biggest problem with gifts. There are those who genuinely need a helping hand, and my heart and my tax dollars gladly go out to them in times of trouble. But there are far more people who are simply opportunistic or lazy. I'm not making this judgement without experience.

 

Yeah well you see I got the impression that you had called them

'lazy' and 'opporunistic'. And I was pointintg out there were other

possibilities, that you did not appear to have considered.

 

Also I must take issue with the 'far more people', Australia has

one of the toughest dole complainance schemes of any

country in the world. The best result was 5% cheating and some of

that(proportion unknown) were false positives due to mental ilness and

illiteracy.

 

Congratulations! Something tells me that although you have seen the very situations husmusen is talking about, from the poverty to the medications, you will probably not be ordering fish and chips to be flown over from London.

 

Yes, well having a good measure of down to earth common sense

has always been a known protective factor .

 

Cheers.

[Pangloss]

I was not proposing force.

I don't know about Florida but we have an elected democratic

government. And as a citizen in such a state' date=' I have been expressing

my rightful views that the current actions of government are making

homelessness a biger problem not a smaller one.

 

In the meantime because the cogs of government move slowly,

it will fall on private citizens to do what they can.

Again I don't see any force.[/quote']

 

Not trying to put any words in your mouth. It's just that voluntary help for the homeless is a pretty undebatable issue. People will either volunteer to help, or they will not. You can encourage more of it, but there's nothing really there to debate.

 

So the issue really is whether the government should or should not provide entitlements, and on what basis they should be provided. And since those resources are acquired from the citizens on a non-voluntary basis, they are backed by force.

 

Is that good, or bad?

[Coral Rhedd]

Congratulations! Something tells me that although you have seen the very situations hasmusen is talking about' date=' from the poverty to the medications, you will probably not be ordering fish and chips to be flown over from London.[/quote']

 

Thank you for your kind congratulations.

 

Yes, I have been very poor, especially after I first left my ex-husband and went underground. You see, I was fleeing a dangerous marriage. I knew how to affect a common law name change, but I did not know at first how to acquire a new Social Security number. As you know, it is difficult to get work without a Social Security number. My ex had some money and had hired a detective to trace me and he and his attorney were legally badgering my parents to reveal my whereabouts. I feel very fortunate that I was able to elude the detective, but it was a fearful time for me.

 

In order to protect myself and my daughter, I had to give all connections to the past. I could not list past employment and my former name on job applications and resumes. Here is an example of how complicated this was:

 

I had an associates degree from a junior college and a previous career as a journalist. I could not draw upon this past life to improve my new life, so I reentered college under and new name utilizing the help of a goverment program called JTPA to pay for tuition. I actually had to take a GED test under my new name to be allowed to pursue a certificate. Eventually, I changed my major from seeking a certificate in secretarial work (for which I was very unsuited) and won a faculty association scholarship for my writing.

 

My nervous breakdown occured when I was seeking my M.A. I went back and finished it when I began to recover from the breakdown. I remember crying at every meeting with my thesis advisor because I still was not very well. He was patient and eventually I completed my thesis.

 

About the inheritance from my uncle: It is a sort of gift. I did nothing to earn it. Do you think inheritances should be illegal?

[darth tater]

Ohh' date=' I missed yours darthtater.

 

I must say I find your post a tad immature.

 

"People are a little like electricity in that they take the path of least resistance."

 

Ohh if only that were true. You have no idea how much people

make things hard for themselves, no idea.

 

"It is easier to blame someone else than it is to blame the person in the mirror."

 

You're right there, it's much easier to blame the emaciated guy you see on

the street, than ask yourself what the demands of the human being require you to do in such a situation.

 

And I have no doubt there are metho drinkers convinced they don't

have a problem with alchohol(apart from it's scarcity), that it's not

their fault.

 

But the wonderful thing is you don't have to worry about their choices,

only yours.

 

"Looking for a helping hand?

Try the ones on the ends of your arms."

 

Is it good to make flippant comments about things one knows nothing

about?

But I'll pass your comments on, only it might be a bit hard, you see

some of the homeless, they havent got any arms.[/quote']

 

And I find your post a little "thumb sucking."

 

It is a fact that most of the problems of homelessness, in a society like we enjoy in America, are, for the most part, self inflicted.

 

I have no problem helping those who cannot help themselves, but when it comes to those who won't help themselves, well that is another story.

[Coral Rhedd]

It is a fact that most of the problems of homelessness' date=' in a society like we enjoy in America, are, for the most part, self inflicted.

 

[/quote']

 

I am eager for your posting of your evidence.

[-Demosthenes-]

Many are substance abusers. In the shelter where I lived, only I and one other woman did not abuse drugs or alcohol.

I believe you wrote this, but I don't know if it is a cause of homelessness or an effect of, or possibly connected to mental illness?

[Coral Rhedd]

I believe you wrote this, but I don't know if it is a cause of homelessness or an effect of, or possibly connected to mental illness?

 

Many people with mental illnesses are also substance abusers. I am no chemist so I won't venture too deeply here.

 

Take nicotine. It is a legal drug used in the form of cigarettes by virtually all schizophrenics. They use it because there is another substance in it that actually diminishes the symptoms of schizophrenia. Many other legal and illegal drugs diminish the symptoms of certain mental illnesses or at least make the users believe they are feeling better.

 

When the drug is illegal or illegally obtained, this is called self-medicating.

 

When doctors prescribe pharmaceuticals that have similar effects upon brain chemistry, this is called treatment.

 

Two types of mental illnesses that I have noticed that people often self-medicate for are Bipolar I and Schizooid Disorders. Not being a drug counselor or a doctor, I really cannot comment further, except to say that when you combine drug problems with mental illness treatment is very difficult and something called GAF (Global Assessment Functioning I believe) suffers. In other words, people basic Activites of Daily Living diminish. This can include things like hygiene, paying bills, getting to work -- all those things that we believe connote responsibility

[darth tater]

I am eager for your posting of your evidence.

 

Well I think that the evidence is in the success ratio in America.

 

Do you know of a society that returns more wealth to the working class than ours does?

[Coral Rhedd]

Well I think that the evidence is in the success ratio in America.

 

Do you know of a society that returns more wealth to the working class than ours does?

 

I am sorry but I am having trouble seeing that as an explanation for homelessness. I think the problem is that many of the homeless are not of the working class.

 

Don't you think the fact that they have trouble working or finding work is relevant?

[darth tater]

I am sorry but I am having trouble seeing that as an explanation for homelessness. I think the problem is that many of the homeless are not of the working class.

 

Don't you think the fact that they have trouble working or finding work is relevant?

 

I think the reason that most of the homeless are homeless is precisely because they do not consider having a home to be worth the effort and inconvienence of holding a regular job.

[Coral Rhedd]

I think the reason that most of the homeless are homeless is precisely because[/i'] they do not consider having a home to be worth the effort and inconvienence of holding a regular job.

 

Hmmm. I can see that I am going to have to be the one to do the research.

[darth tater]

Hmmm. I can see that I am going to have to be the one to do the research.

 

How would one research something like that?

 

Would you ask the homeless why they are homeless?

 

Would you expect them to be forthcomming as to why they do not house themselves?

[Coral Rhedd]

How would one research something like that?

 

Would you ask the homeless why they are homeless?

 

Would you expect them to be forthcomming as to why they do not house themselves?

 

Actually, there is probably lots of research so I shall go ahunting.

 

Why wouldn't you ask the homeless why they are homeless? Who is likely to know better?

[Coral Rhedd]

Okay Darth Tater, here you go:

 

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/main_nowayhome_causes.html

 

The above Canadian link gives stats on homeless youth. Among the highlights are young people leaving home because of sexual abuse. These are 40% of homeless girls and 19% of homeless boys.

 

Many of these young people leave home or feel forced to leave due to physical abuse: 59% of girls and 39% of boys.

 

Over twice as many homeless youths in this study are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered: 20-20%.

[john5746]

homeless survey

 

This is a decent link. The jist: Substance abuse, mental illness, veterans, battered women and children are major categories.

[Coral Rhedd]

Good link John. The part that I found most interesting was that the lack of affordable housing was considered a prime contributor to homelessness. That would certainly be the case where I live.

[-Demosthenes-]

I live in a smaller city, I'm not exposed to many homeless people, and I am relatively young and unexperienced. Are most homeless people without families or is it common to have whole families that are homeless?

[darth tater]

Why wouldn't you ask the homeless why they are homeless? Who is likely to know better?

 

Or more likely to put a skewed face on it?