Scientific thread posting advice.

[swansont]

Here's the video. I love his point about there being a framework of things you allow to be understood, which are required to answer questions

 

[EdEarl]

The art of simplicity is a puzzle of complexity. Douglas Horton

 

When one does not understand something, even the simplest thing seems complex.

 

Engineers often start working towards a nebulous goal. The boss says, I need a card reader, and development produces the following:

 

A few iterations later, after understanding the system, they develop the following, simpler desktop version:

:

 

Note the punched cards in both pictures to understand the size difference between these two card readers.

 

Rube Goldberg and followers poke fun at humanity with overly complex, do nothing, machines. Some people may try to bolster their image with complexity, but IMO most are slaves of ignorance, and have come to the right place to conquer their ignorance, here.

[StringJunky]

Here's the video. I love his point about there being a framework of things you allow to be understood, which are required to answer questions

 

His simple analogy there is super and gets to the heart of the problem... he was quite peerless at explaining wasn't he?

[DanTrentfield]

Again you assign a motive of making "something look more complex just to appear knowledgeable on a specific topic". You're guessing about this. I could do the same thing and say the reason you're doing this is to put these people down because you think they make you look bad. Or that you want us to dumb everything down for you. Or loosen our rules so you don't have to be as rigorous. I'm just guessing, of course.

 

How can you tell the difference between someone who is trying to participate in the exchange of knowledge on a science discussion forum, and someone who is just doing it to appear more knowledgeable?

I can tell the difference between the two because one says "This happens because a is before b" and the other gives me an equation with his explanation.

My motive is to not necessarily condemn others, rather to help them create a more effective and easily understandable argument. You and I can throw equations and complex explanations at each other all day, but when a person with less experience attempts to read our points he is lost in the complexity of it. I am not dumb Phi, I can understand complexity, but there are those who cannot.

[Klaynos]

I can tell the difference between the two because one says "This happens because a is before b" and the other gives me an equation with his explanation.

My motive is to not necessarily condemn others, rather to help them create a more effective and easily understandable argument. You and I can throw equations and complex explanations at each other all day, but when a person with less experience attempts to read our points he is lost in the complexity of it. I am not dumb Phi, I can understand complexity, but there are those who cannot.

I'd refer you to my post above. The equation is often the simplest...

[StringJunky]

I'd refer you to my post above. The equation is often the simplest...

I would agree. That's as simple and fundamental an explanation one can have.

[DanTrentfield]

I would agree. That's as simple and fundamental an explanation one can have.

which is precisely I said one has an equation and the other doesn't. An equation allows you to understand the fundamentals by breaking it down yourself.

[Lyudmilascience]

Here at SFN I've found a common problem: People like to make things that needn't be complex, complex to make themselves look more knowledgeable on a topic. There are places where complexity is necessary, such as is the case with many explanations with large amounts of complex mathematical equations and explanations for those equations, but there are also places where complexity simply isn't necessary. One piece of advice on posting scientific threads on SFN is: Don't make things more complex than they need to be, Remember that the simplest explanations are not only the ones that will carry the most weight with your opponent in debate, but will be the easiest for all to understand, and will leave the least doubt that you are attempting to use misinformation to influence the argument, or any other foul play.

 

I completely agree, thank you for making this forum post. I often wither feel stupid when someone answers my question in confusing board analogys of the world, I'm not a scientist, I only wish I was as smart as them that's why I'm on here asking questions or like I am causing people to not like this forum because i'm like the stupid little kid that posts silly things. I did go to college,I'm a recent grad even though its for an art major, I still have my own opinions. I don't like when I post that I am not well educated on this but I want to learn more or I make a spelling/ grammar mistake and rather then answering my question they point out writing mistakes. I try a lot more on here to correct grammar look over the writing for mistakes than I do anywhere else and I try to use proper grammar less contractions. so thank you to anyone who answers my questions. I don't need to sound smart I need to be smart, I want to go back to college for a masters in science because I made a mistake with art college and I think the thousands of people in my college will regret their decision too, but I would have to get multiple post baccalaureate degrees to make up the lack of academics and have to do well on the GREs. I need more self esteem and practice in math to get into science, I am not good at math. and perhaps this site inst for me if its made for people with extensive scientific knowledge because they would not want to brake everything down for me but I think I have seen a few people post who claim that they don't have a science degree. if this site is not made for people like me what site is? recommend me something, because this is not the first cite I have tired.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Lyudmilascience

[Mordred]

Just for the record. This site does a good job helping those who are asking honest questions. It's often difficult to gauge the skills of the OP when answering those questions.

 

The main problem is many posters with little understanding on the subject matter will make declarations that this is how it is. Those are the posters that get into trouble.

 

Posters that genuinely desire to learn, will ask rather than declare how something works etc.

[Phi for All]

Most people here who correct misinformation aren't doing it to make you look bad. They're doing it to make you look better next time.

 

There should never be any ridicule implied in correcting a mistake. Mistakes we make often insure we understand a subject more thoroughly. Mistakes should never cause guilt or ill-feelings in these instances.

 

I would hope people come here because of a high-standard of posting. I hate sites where folks can just spew hateful nonsense, or claim their wishful thoughts are reality.

[studiot]

Regardless of how complex you make your answer, there is another consideration IMHO.

 

There are a wide range of posters of incorrect material starting threads.

By this I mean that some are obsessive about particular incorrect view or proposition they hold too, regardless of atempts to point them in the right direction.

Little can be done for these.

 

But there are those who have an incorrect idea, but are prepared to be shown why they do not have enough knowledge to see that their proposition is inappropriate, although on the face of it their idea seems good.

 

We should nurture this latter group, not jump hard on them, particularly if they are still school pupils.

 

I remember when I was in secondary school I had this idea, after studying very elementary architectural and builders' structural mechanics, that I would like to apply 'structural mechanics' to molecular architecture, using the same principles, as nobody seemed to be doing this.

In those days we did not have the internet and I was left to work out for myself why my idea was inappropriate at a much later date, when I had aquired the necessary wider knowledge.

 

But how many here have had apparantly viable ideas like this in their younger days, only to have it brutally squashed by someone further along the path?

Edited May 17, 2016 by studiot

[StringJunky]

Regardless of how complex you make your answer, there is another consideration IMHO.

 

There are a wide range of posters of incorrect material starting threads.

By this I mean that some are obsessive about particular incorrect view or proposition they hold too, regardless of atempts to point them in the right direction.

Little can be done for these.

 

But there are those who have an incorrect idea, but are prepared to be shown why they do not have enough knowledge to see that their proposition is inappropriate, although on the face of it their idea seems good.

 

We should nurture this latter group, not jump hard on them, particularly if they are still school pupils.

 

I remember when I was in secondary school I had this idea, after studying very elementary architectural and builders' structural mechanics, that I would like to apply 'structural mechanics' to molecular architecture, using the same principles, as nobody seemed to be doing this.

In those days we did not have the internet and I was left to work out for myself why my idea was inappropriate at a much later date, when I had aquired the necessary wider knowledge.

 

But how many here have had apparantly viable ideas like this in their younger days, only to have it brutally squashed by someone further along the path?

Some people, particularly scientists, are dispassionate and neutral when they deliver information and critique. That very same laudable scientific approach can come across as cold and cutting, making the uninitiated person on the receiving end feel attacked and unwelcome.

Edited May 17, 2016 by StringJunky

[studiot]

 

String Junky

Some people, particularly scientists, are dispassionate and neutral when deliver information and critique. That very same laudable scientific approach can come across as cold and cutting, making the uninitiated person on the receiving end feel attacked and unwelcome.

 

 

So are you suggesting that a well qualified scientist with 25 or 30 years experience under his/her belt should not consider the tenderness of a fifteen year old?

[EdEarl]

@Lyudmilascience,

 

Sometimes spelling and grammar errors can be important to understanding a poster's question, in which case, it is necessary to get a clarification of language. Although, some may reply to correct only spelling and grammar. Regardless, you should appreciate their effort. Sooner or later, incorrect grammar or spelling will misrepresent ones intent.

 

Learning to communicate accurately is a craft that some, like me, work on their entire life, yet never master. Some communicators, poets and song writers, are artists, who craft language with incredible skill that few of us achieve. Nonetheless, spelling and grammar are important to everyone.

[StringJunky]

 

So are you suggesting that a well qualified scientist with 25 or 30 years experience under his/her belt should not consider the tenderness of a fifteen year old?

The scientist is answering the question as best they can. They most likely don't know that information; should there be an analysis first of the vitals of the questioner before answering?

[Lyudmilascience]

yea I agree sometimes spelling and grammar can be important to the meaning of what you said and I do want people to correct me on that, but what I am talking about is people who only correct spelling that is already obvious what word I mean and they don't answer my question. the fact that they don't answer my question only look at my spelling bothers me. it makes me wonder did they read the content of my post of just look for spelling errors. I don't need that post if they don't answer my question.

[studiot]

 

yea I agree sometimes spelling and grammar can be important to the meaning of what you said and I do want people to correct me on that, but what I am talking about is people who only correct spelling that is already obvious what word I mean and they don't answer my question. the fact that they don't answer my question only look at my spelling bothers me. it makes me wonder did they read the content of my post of just look for spelling errors. I don't need that post if they don't answer my question.

 

 

I have seen your name on the forums, but rarely in the threads that I participate in so I have little or no experience of your questions.

 

I sympathise with your desire to learn and to receive answers appropriate to your level of understanding.

But please understand that it can be quite dispiriting to see someone asking what are basically the wrong questions, because they don't know enough to ask the right ones.

If they then listen to a development of the subject, sufficient to show them the way and even provide some sort of answer to their original question then it is great.

Note also that such a development may need to be spread over several posts and can involve substantial effort on the explainer's part.

 

But some (and I'm not saying you do this) refuse to work through to get to their goal, usually unpsetting all parties in the process.

 

As regards to your English language style.

 

Imagine your lecturer at college (including art college) putting up a powerpoint phrased as your post#41.

 

Yes it is readable

Yes I understood it

But a lot of stuff presented like that, peple turn off because they think

"If the questioner can't be bothered to present their case smartly, then they are showing they don't care. So why should I?"

This is very much like the standard advice in going for a job interview.

 

If the applicant shows they don't care, how will they act in work?

[Lyudmilascience]

I understand what you mean by the college lecturer point, even there you misspelled people you wrote: "peple turn off" but you are holding me to high standards, to standards of a college lecturer and or employer. and what I am talking about is when people don't answer my questions because of the spelling errors. I do not have that many errors in my posts, if you want to correct my spelling and answer my question that is fine but if you only correct my spelling that is rude, it shows that you do not care what I have to say. are you saying this forum is equivalent to a college lecture? I think this is not as crucial to be absolutely correct in spelling and grammar in every word. even with a college lecture, I have seen them make power points with spelling mistakes. People point it out; or they notice the mistakes themselves, then they continue answering the question. They care more how much the professor knows on the subject then if they made a spelling mistake.

[studiot]

Yes I misspelled people. My apologies.

 

Actually my post said nothing about your spelling.

 

 

As regards to your English language style.

 

This is to do with the fact that you don't break up your text into manageable chunks.

 

Doing that makes it easier for everyone.

[swansont]

 

So are you suggesting that a well qualified scientist with 25 or 30 years experience under his/her belt should not consider the tenderness of a fifteen year old?

 

 

 

Should they? Sure. In much the same way that I should probably be better at carpentry — it would be better for everyone involved when the situation comes up. But since I rarely do anything related to that, my skills are lacking. So asking that scientists be better communicators is a nice thought, but until that's part of the job description, it's not a priority. They (we) know how to talk to other scientists. Unless they have developed the public speaking skill — and most haven't — you aren't going to get what you want.