The Proton

[sunshaker]

A couple of questions on the Proton,

 

First I wonder if anyone can explain "simply" how we get the mass 938.272mev?

 

I have noticed their are different measurements for the proton using electrons or muons which give a different measurement of proton.

I ask this because I have got a measurement of 930.64mev, within my pet model, which is 0.82% different.

 

within my model I have a proton with a diameter of 1.73 femtometers, radius 0.865fm.

but I do not have a perfect sphere(slight oval) 173fm horizontal diameter, 172 vertical diameter,

 

if I want the diameter of as sphere I times the diameter(173) by pi 3.141 =543.393

but if I use the horizontal diameter 172 x 3.141=540.252, difference of 3.141pi,

but want is the circumference of this 172/173 oval? volume?

 

PS I know we do not say the circumference for a proton, (wave/particle).

Edited May 12, 2016 by sunshaker

[ajb]

First I wonder if anyone can explain "simply" how we get the mass 938.272mev?

You measure the mass-charge-ratio like you would with any charged particle: i.e., using mass spectrometry. The most accurate mesurements (I think) come from using Penning traps. I really do not know much about these experiments, maybe someone else can help you with the literature.

 

Calculating this is much harder and you need to look at various approximations using lattice QCD. I think the most accurate calculations so far are in [1], which are somthing like acurate to within a few percent.

 

 

References

[1] S. Dürr, Z. Fodor, J. Frison; et al. (2008). "Ab Initio Determination of Light Hadron Masses". Science 322 (5905): 1224–7. arXiv:0906.3599

[Sensei]

A couple of questions on the Proton,

 

First I wonder if anyone can explain "simply" how we get the mass 938.272mev?

 

Mass of 1 mole of Hydrogen H₂ gas is ~2.016 g/mol. (this is averaged Hydrogen and Deuterium)

(you can get to this value using f.e. electrolysis of water)

1 mole is 6.022141*10^23 molecules.

 

~2.016 g = ~0.002016 kg

0.002016 kg / 6.022141*10^23 = 3.34764662600892E-027 kg

 

Now convert kg to Joules:

3.34764662600892E-027 kg * 299792458^2 = 3.00871474170635E-010 J

 

Now convert Joules to electron Volts:

3.00871474170635E-010 J / 1.602176565*10^-19 = 1877892117.15648 eV

 

But H₂ has two protons (and two electrons), so divide by 2:

1877892117.15648 eV / 2 = 938946058 eV

 

And subtract mass-energy of electron:

938946058 eV - 510999 eV = 938435059 eV

 

Nearly, nearly (1.7/10000 missed) our 938272046 eV mass-energy of proton.

Without even touching mass spectrometry..

 

 

I have noticed their are different measurements for the proton using electrons or muons which give a different measurement of proton.

I ask this because I have got a measurement of 930.64mev, within my pet model, which is 0.82% different.

My calculation is 1.7 / 10,000 different from the real value...

Edited May 12, 2016 by Sensei

[timo]

If I understand you correctly your method of calculating the proton mass is measuring a mix of protons and electrons and assuming that the electron mass is negligible in the mix?

[timo]

If I understand you correctly your method of calculating the proton mass is measuring a mix of protons and electrons and assuming that the electron mass is negligible in the mix?

Nevermind that statement. I did somehow assume Sensei wrote the first post in this thread (more precisely, I did not look at the names of the posters at all). I guess the point I wanted to make is the same as Sensei's.

[ajb]

Without even touching mass spectrometry..

That is a nice derivation of the mass of a proton, essentially from the mass of H_2.

[sunshaker]

That is a nice derivation of the mass of a proton, essentially from the mass of H_2.

I agree, thank you +1.

 

 

 

My calculation is 1.7 / 10,000 different from the real value...

How real is this "real value", could your calculation be the real value, or maybe even my 930.64 mev be the "real value"?

I guess the "real value" is the excepted value, I still do not completely understand the first part of your process, and how accurate this part is, and this first part is the foundation of your calculation.

 

 

Mass of 1 mole of Hydrogen H₂ gas is ~2.016 g/mol. (this is averaged Hydrogen and Deuterium)

(you can get to this value using f.e. electrolysis of water)

1 mole is 6.022141*10^23 molecules.

but it is something else for me to explore.

[ajb]

How real is this "real value", could your calculation be the real value, or maybe even my 930.64 mev be the "real value"?

I guess the "real value" is the excepted value, I still do not completely understand the first part of your process, and how accurate this part is, and this first part is the foundation of your calculation.

Like I said, the most accurate measurements come from looking at H2+ and D+ in a Penning trap [1]. Other methods of mass spectrometry have also been used. The paper I cite will for sure have refreences to other works.

 

Reference

 

[1] A. Solders, I. Bergström, Sz. Nagy, M. Suhonen, and R. Schuch, Determination of the proton mass from a measurement of the cyclotron frequencies of D+ and H2+ in a Penning trap , Phys. Rev. A 78, 012514 2008.

[Sensei]

How real is this "real value", could your calculation be the real value, or maybe even my 930.64 mev be the "real value"?

I guess the "real value" is the excepted value, I still do not completely understand the first part of your process, and how accurate this part is, and this first part is the foundation of your calculation.

Do you know a bit of chemistry?

You measure mass of one substance, measure mass of other substance (reactant),

mix them together,

and getting some final product, or couple products (and then have to separate them by f.e. distillation), and also measure their masses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_%28chemistry%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagent

 

Say you have compound which is releasing Hydrogen gas.

You will see decrease of mass by some amount between reactant(s), and product.

And it's 1.008 g/mol for every Hydrogen atom. Or 2.016 g/mol for H₂.

Not without a reason H₂O has molar mass 18.016 g/mol. It's 1.008 + 1.008 + 16 = 18.016.

If Hydrogen would be 0.82% more massive, it would be 1.01627 g/mol instead of 1.008 g/mol.

If Hydrogen would be 0.82% less massive, it would be 0.9998 g/mol.

 

Read also about Avogadro constant.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avogadro_constant

Edited May 13, 2016 by Sensei

[swansont]

The discrepancy in proton measurements is in the size, rather than the mass, from muonium experiments (a muon replacing the electron)

 

Your model has an asymmetric proton. What electric dipole moment arises from this asymmetry?

[sunshaker]

The discrepancy in proton measurements is in the size, rather than the mass, from muonium experiments (a muon replacing the electron)

 

Your model has an asymmetric proton. What electric dipole moment arises from this asymmetry?

I am looking into dipole moments, This may take awhile, I would be greatfull if you or anyone else may be able to point me in the right direction/method to work out a dipole moment within my proton/element opposing tables?

The torque that is caused interests me, as it could be a cause of how these opposing +/-elements twist and merge

 

 

Where would I start to work out a dipole moment?, my tables run from z1 to z172 also -z172 to -z1, so if I was to take +z8(oxygen) opposed by -z165, distance "perhaps" 1 FEMTOMETER.

could I work out a dipole moment from above?

Edited May 14, 2016 by sunshaker

[swansont]

I am looking into dipole moments, This may take awhile, I would be greatfull if you or anyone else may be able to point me in the right direction/method to work out a dipole moment within my proton/element opposing tables?

 

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_dipole_moment#Expression_.28general_case.29

[Sensei]

Where would I start to work out a dipole moment?

 

Experimental?

Water stream/waterfall close to static electric charged object.

 

 

Water bends its path, because Oxygen has -2e charge, while Hydrogen has +1e charge. They're not uniformly distributed on molecule to cancel each other influence.

 

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/diph2o.html

Edited May 14, 2016 by Sensei