Transgender Bathroom, Locker rooms, and showers.

[Elite Engineer]

I really respect this community alot, and love the discussion of scientific ideas...so hopefully this will be my first and last thread on a political topic.

People who are advocating public restrooms, locker rooms and showers all seem to use the same scenario in defending their position: "Well, if a pedophile or rapist wanted to molest or rape someone, what's stopping them from walking into a woman's bathroom or shower and doing it?".

 

Firstly, it's illegal, so I think it's going to deter a large percentage of the rapists/ molesters out there. Secondly, its not normalized for a man to walk into a women's restroom or shower. So, when a man does this, it kinda it sticks out.

 

I am not objecting to this because "women and girls are going to get molested and raped en masse"...no. I'm more concerned that some perv will claim he feels like a woman will take advantage of the situation. I'm concerned a perv, young or old, will expose himself to my daughter in the bathroom or shower. I'm worried about some guy gawking at my wife or gf in the shower.

 

I'm not opposed to transgender bathroom legislation..there's more than one way to go about this. I'm against allowing a situation where a man will say he feels like a woman, so can walk into the same bathroom, locker room or shower as my daughter and use it for his own fantasies.

 

~EE

 

 

[StringJunky]

I agree with your position. The problem of abuse will never go away. I think the solution is to have a separate male/female facility that anybody can use if they fall outside those two categories and wanted to use a facility that they didn't qualify for.

[ajb]

In the UK a person can use the bathroom based on what gender they identify with, this has been the law for a while now. This has not coursed a massive increase in sex offensies in UK toilets. In fact, it may have reduced the number of attacks on transgenered people, if it has done anything.

 

So while it may be difficult to directly translate one culture to another, there seems no real evidence that allowing people to use whatever bathroom with increase the rate of sexual assault.

 

Moreover, I do not see breaking one more small law in order to carry out a larger illegal activity is really an issue for most sexual predators.

 

I will also say that in the UK we have mixed changing rooms in some swimming pools. I have not come across any claims that this had increased the number of flashers.

 

I think the general worries here are unfounded and the risk greatly out weighs the benefit to society.

Edited May 14, 2016 by ajb

[StringJunky]

In the UK a person can use the bathroom based on what gender they identify with, this has been the law for a while now. This has not coursed a massive increase in sex offensies in UK toilets. In fact, it may have reduced the number of attacks on transgenered people, if it has done anything.

 

So while it may be difficult to directly translate one culture to another, there seems no real evidence that allowing people to use whatever bathroom with increase the rate of sexual assault.

 

Moreover, I do not see breaking one more small law in order to carry out a larger illegal activity is really an issue for most sexual predators.

 

I will also say that in the UK we have mixed changing rooms in some swimming pools. I have not come across any claims that this had increased the number of flashers.

 

I think the general worries here are unfounded and the risk greatly out weighs the benefit to society.

I must admit, I hadn't known that was the case here in the UK. If the evidence is not there then I eat my words. +1

[ajb]

I must admit, I hadn't known that was the case here in the UK. If the evidence is not there then I eat my words. +1

It is the case in the UK. I forget what act and what year... I think we could 'google' that (It could be the 2010 Equality act, but I am not sure).

 

For sure, UK public toilets did not suffer a big jump problems. That is not to say that some public toilets do not have problems, but this is unrelated to transgender issues.

[Bells]

I really respect this community alot, and love the discussion of scientific ideas...so hopefully this will be my first and last thread on a political topic.

 

People who are advocating public restrooms, locker rooms and showers all seem to use the same scenario in defending their position: "Well, if a pedophile or rapist wanted to molest or rape someone, what's stopping them from walking into a woman's bathroom or shower and doing it?".

 

Firstly, it's illegal, so I think it's going to deter a large percentage of the rapists/ molesters out there. Secondly, its not normalized for a man to walk into a women's restroom or shower. So, when a man does this, it kinda it sticks out.

 

I am not objecting to this because "women and girls are going to get molested and raped en masse"...no. I'm more concerned that some perv will claim he feels like a woman will take advantage of the situation. I'm concerned a perv, young or old, will expose himself to my daughter in the bathroom or shower. I'm worried about some guy gawking at my wife or gf in the shower.

 

I'm not opposed to transgender bathroom legislation..there's more than one way to go about this. I'm against allowing a situation where a man will say he feels like a woman, so can walk into the same bathroom, locker room or shower as my daughter and use it for his own fantasies.

 

~EE

 

 

 

I don't even know where to begin..

 

Firstly, men aren't saying they feel like women so they can use the women's bathroom or locker room.

 

Secondly, this whole debate is sexist and homophobic. Sexist because women are now being accosted by strange men and even the police for trying to use public restrooms, because these men don't think they look enough like a woman.

 

Thirdly, trans have been using the bathroom of the gender they identify with for decades, without incident. This whole thing is a sexist moral panic from the right with absolutely no foundation in reality. The complaint about sexual assault when the reality is that a woman or girl is more likely to be sexually assaulted by the man she shares a bathroom with in her own home seems to have escaped everyone's notice. Or perhaps it hasn't escaped their notice. The whole bathroom debate is being placed solely on the shoulders of women, to further human rights abuses and discrimination of LGBT.. Not to mention this whole male desire to protect women from rape from transexuals is about control. It is about men being afraid that a "man" might see "their women" naked. A transexual woman is not a "man". She is a woman. Unless you think men are going to go through the horrors of hormone therapy, breast implants and surgery just to be able to perve at your wife or daughter?

 

Fourthly, these laws are now literally forcing men to use the same public bathrooms and change rooms as women. How? Because the law that you don't oppose stipulates that you can only use the public bathroom facilities of the gender you were born with. This means that men, who were born female but transitioned to male, are now being forced to use the women's bathroom. It means this guy:

 

 

Will now be forced to use the women's bathroom because he was born female. He doesn't want to use the women's bathroom, but it is now illegal for him to use the men's room where he actually belongs.

 

Not to mention that women are now also being forced to use the men's room, because they were born male, and this will risk their safety and wellbeing because they can very well be raped or attacked by the men they are now forced to share a bathroom with.

 

Worse still, transgender children are now being placed at risk because transgender girls are now going to be forced to use the men's room because of their gender at birth. Surely you don't need me to explain to you how dangerous this will be for them?

 

And finally, if a paedophile or rapist is going to enter the women's bathroom to rape or molest women and/or girls, they aren't dressing as women to do so and if you think rape or paedophilia's illegality is going to stop them from raping and molesting women and children.. frankly, it is impolite of me to reflect or comment on your naivety.

[andrewcellini]

Unless you think men are going to go through the horrors of hormone therapy, breast implants and surgery just to be able to perve at your wife or daughter?

There are people, trans men and women alike, who do not for whatever reason go through or delay hormone replacement and various surgeries.

Edited May 14, 2016 by andrewcellini

[Bells]

There are people, trans men and women alike, who do not for whatever reason go through or delay hormone replacement and various surgeries.

 

Yes. And?

 

There are no reported incidents of transgender women raping women and there is no indication that sexual assaults in public restrooms against heterosexual women are caused by transgender women. In other words, there are no reports of this happening. And this goes for transgender women who haven't gone through the hormone therapy or surgeries involved in transitioning. One has to question how or why this is suddenly such an issue and where this sudden fear has stemmed from. It's hard enough for transgender to live in society, because of the constant abuse, harassment and discrimination. This just adds to that.

 

This issue is a human rights issue. These laws existed in the past, but back then, they targeted people of colour.

[StringJunky]

It is the case in the UK. I forget what act and what year... I think we could 'google' that (It could be the 2010 Equality act, but I am not sure).

 

For sure, UK public toilets did not suffer a big jump problems. That is not to say that some public toilets do not have problems, but this is unrelated to transgender issues.

Yes, it was a 2010 amendment of the Equality Act.

 

 

From the Law Society:

 

 

Managers must ensure that the employee can use facilities appropriate to their expressed gender identity. It may be appropriate to set a date when this will happen - the social transition date - and ensure that it is communicated so that relevant colleagues are not surprised.

A transgender employee must be able to use the toilet or changing room of their expressed gender identity without fear of harassment. People should not be made to use unisex disabled toilets, unless they choose to do so, particularly as a temporary measure during the transition period.

http://www.lawsociety.org.uk/support-services/advice/practice-notes/working-with-transgender-employees/

Edited May 14, 2016 by StringJunky

[John Cuthber]

Not a subject of which I have a lot of experience but- the last time I checked- the women's loos were in separate cubicles. You couldn't tell if the person in the next one was male or female.

 

 

And the reason I was in there is because

(1) the building was unoccupied

(2) I was inspecting it before opening as a Safety Representative and

(3) we had been unable to find any taps in the building that provided drinking water- the Ladies' room was the last place we checked.

 

It turned out that the builders had failed to supply drinking water anywhere in the building.

 

There might be a bigger issue with changing rooms- but imagine the risk of getting caught when the next woman walks in.

[andrewcellini]

 

Yes. And?

Well firstly, it seemed as if hormone replacement therapy and the like were your implied criteria for a person to be trans. Secondly, how would you know, given that not all people who are actually transgender actually go through such things, that a person is actually trans and not entering the bathroom for other motives? You probably wouldn't if you're basing your assessment on their appearance, and ultimately barring based on appearance would do nothing except potentially discriminate against those who are actually trans.

[Endy0816]

I'm finding the most prominent restroom I can and going inside in drag if anything that asnine passes locally.

[ajb]

I'm finding the most prominent restroom I can and going inside in drag if anything that asnine passes locally.

What would that prove?

[Bells]

Well firstly, it seemed as if hormone replacement therapy and the like were your implied criteria for a person to be trans.

 

That was not my intention.

 

 

 

Secondly, how would you know, given that not all people who are actually transgender actually go through such things, that a person is actually trans and not entering the bathroom for other motives? You probably wouldn't if you're basing your assessment on their appearance, and ultimately barring based on appearance would do nothing except potentially discriminate against those who are actually trans.

 

What other motives? Is there a history of this occurring? Have there been sexual assaults or rapes by men who pass themselves off as transgender to access the women's bathrooms? The answer to that is no. The irony of this ridiculous legislation is that more Republican men have been arrested for sexual misconduct in bathrooms while there are no reports of transgender being arrested for sexual misconduct in bathrooms.

 

This law and the ridiculous paranoia it has encouraged now has people looking at appearance and it is discriminating against women, transgender and cisgender women. Women are being accosted and removed from the women's toilets because men don't believe they are women. And this is based solely on appearance or the perception or belief of what women should look like from the men in question. This is abhorrent. Someone who identifies as a woman, should be using the women's toilets. And someone who identifies as a man, should be using the men's toilets. The whole argument of ulterior motives is based on a myth. A dangerous myth that is costing lives.

 

And frankly, when I go to the bathroom, I am not even looking at what women look like. We don't stand there and look at women's appearances to see if they belong there, nor do we peek under cubicle doors to see if the women in there are women.

[Ten oz]

Sexual assult is against the law. Lewd conduct in a restroom is too. Famouly the former U.S. Senator Larry Craig (male who identified as male) was arrested in an airport men's restroom for lewd conduct when he attempted to engage a man in the stall next to him in a sexual act. The fact that Larry Craig was in the restroom legally is not something that saved his career or made the lewd conduct charge go away.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Craig_scandal

 

Sexual related crimes are taken far more seriously in society than is whatever the petty charge a man or woman would currently receive for using the wrong bathroom. In truth I think most people have used an opposite gender bathroom in a pinch. The argument is that allowing something that is presently a ticketable citiation (at worst) will somehow increase the likelihood of felony behavior. It is too great of a leap for me.

[Endy0816]

Just to protest. Everyone has got to go sometime.

[Prometheus]

I will also say that in the UK we have mixed changing rooms in some swimming pools. I have not come across any claims that this had increased the number of flashers.

 

I've come across mixed public toilets in a UK uni. It was a bit odd walking into the same toilet as did women, before heading to your own cubicle (as was the fact there were no urinals): maybe it requires a certain demographic to be comfortable with unisex facilities, but it would eliminate any issue of which people should use which rooms.

[Delta1212]

I've come across mixed public toilets in a UK uni. It was a bit odd walking into the same toilet as did women, before heading to your own cubicle (as was the fact there were no urinals): maybe it requires a certain demographic to be comfortable with unisex facilities, but it would eliminate any issue of which people should use which rooms.

I think mostly the demographic that is required are people who are used to using unisex facilities. It feels weird to do something with different rules than you've been used to for most of your life. It feels less weird the more you do it.

 

Quite frankly, thinking about it, I'm not sure why it's any more awkward to use the restroom in the presence of someone of the opposite sex than it is to do it around a bunch of other people of the same sex.

[Phi for All]

Everything people fear about these encounters is already against the law. It really boils down to using the restrooms for the use for which they were intended. Do people really think access is what's stopping people from being sexually assaulted in restrooms?

 

Urinals are a bit of a monkey wrench. They're designed for only half the public, but they seem to serve a long-range purpose (men's room lines are almost always shorter at a stadium because of the extra facilities). Perhaps in the future we could design stall-only unisex bathrooms, plus a urinal-only choice for express service?

[Delta1212]

Everything people fear about these encounters is already against the law. It really boils down to using the restrooms for the use for which they were intended. Do people really think access is what's stopping people from being sexually assaulted in restrooms?

 

Urinals are a bit of a monkey wrench. They're designed for only half the public, but they seem to serve a long-range purpose (men's room lines are almost always shorter at a stadium because of the extra facilities). Perhaps in the future we could design stall-only unisex bathrooms, plus a urinal-only choice for express service?

 

 

I remember seeing a thing about one place that had unisex bathrooms that instead of being marked mens and women were marked as being with and without urinals.

[Phi for All]

The most elegant solution, of course, is that all the conservatives who are bothered by the thought of someone violating their birth certificate classification should just wear Depends. Then when you see them smile, you know they're actively protecting themselves from sexual predators.

[andrewcellini]

What other motives? Is there a history of this occurring? Have there been sexual assaults or rapes by men who pass themselves off as transgender to access the women's bathrooms? The answer to that is no.

What other motives? At least in these two cases, sexual:

 

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/26/predator-who-claimed-to-be-transgender-declared-dangerous-offender

 

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/man-strips-in-front-of-girls-in-swimming-pool-locker-says-transgender-law-a

 

To say this never happens would be incredulous and, as I said previously, you wouldn't be able to tell whether the individual is passing themselves off as trans unless, perhaps, they were to do something lewd and illegal. This isn't to say that there will be a rise in sexual assault given some perceived loophole in the law as such a rise isn't evident in the data for parts of the country with laws protecting trans individuals: http://abcnews.go.com/US/sexual-assault-domestic-violence-organizations-debunk-bathroom-predator/story?id=38604019

Edited May 15, 2016 by andrewcellini

[Elite Engineer]

 

 

And finally, if a paedophile or rapist is going to enter the women's bathroom to rape or molest women and/or girls, they aren't dressing as women to do so and if you think rape or paedophilia's illegality is going to stop them from raping and molesting women and children.. frankly, it is impolite of me to reflect or comment on your naivety.

I'm not concerned about rape or pedophilia in women's showers and bathrooms..this was clearly stated. Honestly, it seems more of a straw man argument, and its not why I'm not in favor of this legislation.

Edited May 14, 2016 by Elite Engineer

[iNow]

The black men will rape all the white women.

The Mexicans will steal your jobs.

Same sex marriage is an abomination.

Transgendered people must be forced to use the bathroom of their birth gender.

 

Just another example in a long history of stupid wedge issues used to motivate divisions among stupid people and distract us all from doing what actually matters.

 

Now, as for the mature people, we'll be exploring ways to mitigate global climate change, income inequality, and lack of food, potable water, and healthcare for millions upon millions of people while the rest of you freak out unnecessarily about where a small handful of people go piss.

[StringJunky]

.... while the rest of you freak out unnecessarily about where a small handful of people go piss.

 

 

 

An earlier report published in April 2011 by the Williams Institute estimated that 3.8 percent of Americans identified as gay/lesbian, bisexual, or transgender: 1.7 percent as lesbian or gay, 1.8 percent as bisexual, and 0.3 percent as transgender.

California has a transgender population density of 1 trans per 2292 people.