Transgender Bathroom, Locker rooms, and showers.

[iNow]

And IMO (no matter how many thousands or millions of people fall into that population) they should all be able to piss in the bathroom where they're most gender comfortable without a bunch of backwoods undereducated asshats treating them like the biggest threat to civilization or modern day pariahs in any way deserving of our ire or hate or mongering of fear and divisiveness and ostracization.

Edited May 14, 2016 by iNow

[MigL]

Agree with what you say Bells, but throwing out 'sexist' and 'homophobic' labels right out of the starting gate does no-one any good.

 

I have used bathrooms which although not designed that way, were being used by both males and females ( long line-ups in crowded nightclubs in my younger days ). There was never any 'shy bladder' effect, even when the girl in line behind you was telling you to hurry, because you'd usually had plenty to drink.

 

And no, I didn't stick around to see how she was gonna manage at the urinal.

[CharonY]

I assume that this discussion is centered around the NC bill, which is clearly not designed to actually address an issue, but instead just seems to be discriminatory against a specific group of people, ( it somewhat reminds me of the rather ridiculous anti-minaret laws in Switzerland). Considering how rare these events are, laws are likely to complicate matters unnecessarily. There are ways to deal with everyday issues without the need to create strict rules that are likely not enforceable, anyway. For example, in cases of gyms a transgender person may decide to discuss with the gym what options there are. After all, considering how few people are actual transgender they may accommodate the single person who is actually affected.

Public bathrooms are very unlikely to be an issue as others already have noted.

[ajb]

I've come across mixed public toilets in a UK uni. It was a bit odd walking into the same toilet as did women, before heading to your own cubicle (as was the fact there were no urinals): maybe it requires a certain demographic to be comfortable with unisex facilities, but it would eliminate any issue of which people should use which rooms.

I too have experienced this when visiting a UK uni. Very odd the first time.

[Bells]

Agree with what you say Bells, but throwing out 'sexist' and 'homophobic' labels right out of the starting gate does no-one any good.

 

 

Until we can address the reasons behind these laws, these laws will continue to keep popping up, politicians will continue to cause unnecessary fear and misrepresent the groups of people based on their gender, race or sexuality and discrimination against them will continue. I mean, look at the rhetoric behind it. The whole 'I don't want some man in the same bathroom as my wife/daughter'. Historically, this goes back to the Separate Spheres ideology. And its roots are deeply sexist and the result is discrimination.

 

At its heart, this law is sexist in a variety of ways and it is deeply homophobic and transphobic.

 

 

I have used bathrooms which although not designed that way, were being used by both males and females ( long line-ups in crowded nightclubs in my younger days ). There was never any 'shy bladder' effect, even when the girl in line behind you was telling you to hurry, because you'd usually had plenty to drink.

And no, I didn't stick around to see how she was gonna manage at the urinal.

 

That's the thing, isn't it? Who looks?

 

As a woman, I don't sit there and investigate who is using the stall next to me or washing their hands at the sink next to me. I've been to clubs and pubs with unisex bathrooms and no one cared. A lot of the bathrooms in my home state here in Australia are unisex anyway. Sharing a public restroom with a transexual or even men (I've seen some men bring their little girls into the women's bathrooms because the men's room had open urinals and the girls felt more comfortable in the women's bathroom) is the least of my concerns with public restrooms. It's never something I'd even thought about. What does concern me is that there is toilet paper, the toilet is clean and the seat is dry and it flushes, the doors work (nothing worse than the door drifting open when you are sitting down) and there is soap and somewhere or something to dry one's hands with. That is what concerns me with public restrooms. It's safe to say that we have shared public bathrooms with transexuals all our lives. Why is it suddenly such a big issue?

 

The irony of these laws that demand that you have to use the bathroom of the gender you were born with means that now men will be forced to use the women's bathrooms. They don't want to be there, but it is now illegal for them to use the men's bathroom. And now women are being forced to use the men's bathrooms and change rooms, because they were born with a vagina. And this will open these women to sexual assault. Which is horrific. Especially for child and teenage transgender and cisgender.

 

I had wondered about how this was to be policed, but it seems that it has led to people literally accosting women entering the bathrooms, because these men believe that these women are male. They are basing it on appearance. Which is ironic because now the law states that transgender men are legally required to use the women's bathroom. What's going to happen to these transgender men who are now forced to use the women's bathroom by law? The risk to their lives is extreme.

 

What's worse, the State of Kansas is now attempting to pass a Bill, which would provide for students to sue their school or university for $2500 if they see or discover they are sharing a public bathroom with someone who is transgender.

 

With only two weeks left in the Kansas legislation session, state lawmakers have introduced a pair of bills that would prohibit transgender students from using restrooms that match their gender. The “Student Physical Privacy Act” would apply not only to public schools, but all public universities in the state as well, guaranteeing that anyone who saw someone transgender in the bathroom could sue their school for $2,500 for every time that it happened.

The complementary bills (SB 513 and HB 2737) declare in no uncertain terms that transgender students are going to harm other students just by using the same facility alongside them. “Allowing students to use restrooms, locker rooms and showers that are reserved for students of a different sex will create potential embarrassment, shame, and psychological injury to students,” they read.

[...]

But transgender students are apparently such a threat to their peers that these lawmakers believe anyone who has to be in a restroom for them should have grounds for a suit. If a student encounters someone “of the opposite sex,” they have a private cause of action against the school. The aggrieved student is entitled to $2,500 for every time they saw someone transgender in the restroom, plus “monetary damages for all psychological, emotional and physical harm suffered as a result of a violation of this section.”

This particular provision would open a significant liability to many of the state’s universities. Schools like the University of Kansas, Kansas State of University, Washburn University, and several community colleges have policies on the books protecting against discrimination based on gender identity. Any transgender students currently depending on those protections would immediately open the school to lawsuits from their classmates.

 

 

I am still trying to wrap my head around that one. How are people going to know, unless they actively start perving at the people in the bathroom?

 

And people buy into it. They are being fed these myths about the risk to women and girls from paedophiles and rapists, when rape and sexual assault in bathrooms is already illegal and there is no indication or evidence that transexuals pose a risk to women and girls in bathrooms. It is all based on a myth. The myth that transexuals and homosexuals are paedophiles. And that men will suddenly start dressing like women to rape women and girls in public bathrooms. Apparently none of the supporters of these laws understand or recognise that they have been sharing public bathrooms with transexuals all their lives. And that women and girls are more at risk of rape from men they know and trust, in their own homes.

 

 

 

What other motives? At least in these two cases, sexual:

 

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/02/26/predator-who-claimed-to-be-transgender-declared-dangerous-offender

 

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/man-strips-in-front-of-girls-in-swimming-pool-locker-says-transgender-law-a

 

To say this never happens would be incredulous and, as I said previously, you wouldn't be able to tell whether the individual is passing themselves off as trans unless, perhaps, they were to do something lewd and illegal. This isn't to say that there will be a rise in sexual assault given some perceived loophole in the law as such a rise isn't evident in the data for parts of the country with laws protecting trans individuals: http://abcnews.go.com/US/sexual-assault-domestic-violence-organizations-debunk-bathroom-predator/story?id=38604019

 

 

Ermm your first link is about a sexual predator who identifies as a transexual who assaulted people in a shelter. Do you think these bathroom laws would have prevented him from raping? Are you aware that rape is illegal anyway, as such, raping someone is a crime and his being a transexual has no bearing on his being a criminal or a rapist? In other words, he wasn't using his sexual identity to gain access to women and girls to rape them.

 

Your second link is of a man who went into a women's change room and tried to declare that transexuals can use the women's change room so he could to. Despite the fact he wasn't a transexual and he did not identify as a woman or transexual.

[ajb]

I do not think that anyone has claimed that no transgendered person has ever committed a sexual crime, or that no-one has tried to claim to be a transexual in order to commit crimes, sexual or otherwise. The point is that these occurrence are low. Allowing a more inclusive bathroom and changing room policy will not be a 'green light' to all the sexual misfits out there. The evidence for a 'huge moral meltdown' is missing. Simple as that.

 

In reverse, no-one is claiming that sexual crimes in public bathrooms and similar are the result of an non-inclusive policy. There will always be a number of events irrespective of the laws.

 

As I have said before, the very small risks associated with an inclusive policy are out weighted by the benefits to society.

[John Cuthber]

I'm sure the Republican party is glad that its policy is having the desired effect of diverting attention from real issues like ... well anything really.

 

The rules will not stop a man dressing up as a woman and going into the women's bathrooms to peep at the woman there or for whatever other purpose they might do so.

 

So, in terms of protecting girls and women, the rules are pointless.

 

But they will make life that bit more difficult for trans people.

 

And, of course, they will lead to further unnecessary confrontation.

http://addictinginfo.org/2016/05/14/kentucky-woman-brutally-beaten-by-man-for-looking-too-masculine-while-onlookers-do-nothing/

[andrewcellini]

Ermm your first link is about a sexual predator who identifies as a transexual who assaulted people in a shelter. Do you think these bathroom laws would have prevented him from raping?

Can you read? First to clarify as you seem to miss my point, neither case is of a person who is actually transgender and both are claiming they can use facilities of the opposite gender in areas where trans individuals are protected under law to do so, the perceived loophole I mentioned. Second, no I clearly stated that these laws wouldn't have an impact, do I have to repeat my question how would you know the individual is a predator? How would you know they're actually transgender? Laws on both ends, attempting to protect the rights of trans individuals to use the facilities corresponding to their gender identity or quashing the rights of trans individuals to protect the rest of the population, seem ineffective at eliminating sexual predators and bound to infringe someones rights if they're legitimately enforced, and I personally don't want bathroom guards from either camp blocking my way.

 

You seem to think I'm claiming that trans individuals are the predators which I am clearly not; I'm talking about the rare individual who gets the idea in their head they can use these laws which allow trans people to use the bathroom corresponding to their gender identity as a means to hurt others.

 

Are you aware that rape is illegal anyway, as such, raping someone is a crime and his being a transexual has no bearing on his being a criminal or a rapist?

And I never said it was. Thank you for trying to put words in my mouth.

Despite the fact he wasn't a transexual and he did not identify as a woman or transexual.

The point in even mentioning these cases is that people, and it is certainly rare as it's hard to find such cases, use laws protecting transgender individuals use of bathrooms of the gender they identify as a means of preying on others. This is contrary to your claim that this never happens or has never happened.

Edited May 15, 2016 by andrewcellini

[StringJunky]

You seem to think I'm claiming that trans individuals are the predators which I am clearly not; I'm talking about the rare individual who gets the idea in their head they can use these laws which allow trans people to use the bathroom corresponding to their gender identity as a means to hurt others.

 

Although the concern you express is a legitimate one, the evidence for its occurrence in the UK is very thin to non-existent; I've certainly never read of it anywhere and we are in the sixth year of those people being allowed by law. I think, like most things of this nature, you have to do a risk/benefit analysis and it would seem the risk is very small in comparison to the sense of inclusiveness, respect and dignity that these people will be deprived of if they are not permitted.

Edited May 15, 2016 by StringJunky

[andrewcellini]

Although the concern you express is a legitimate one, the evidence for its occurrence in the UK is very thin to non-existent; I've certainly never read of it anywhere and we are in the sixth year of those people being allowed by law. I think, like most things of this nature, you have to do a risk/benefit analysis and it would seem the risk is very small in comparison to the sense of inclusiveness, respect and dignity that these people will be deprived of if they are not permitted.

I agree (as I even mention it's rare and have given a news article showing no rise in sexual crime in states which protect trans individuals), to clarify again I don't think that policing bathrooms is the right idea in any circumstance. Imagine the logistics of trying to identify individuals who are trans; do people carry and are they even willing to carry such documentation just to use a bathroom? Are we to require special licenses? And imagine the time delays for actually being able to use the facility.

[StringJunky]

I agree (as I even mention it's rare and have given a news article showing no rise in sexual crime in states which protect trans individuals), to clarify again I don't think that policing bathrooms is the right idea in any circumstance. Imagine the logistics of trying to identify individuals who are trans; do people carry and are they even willing to carry such documentation just to use a bathroom? Are we to require special licenses? And imagine the time delays for actually being able to use the facility.

My apologies, I think I misinterpreted your position.

[iNow]

This is getting beyond ridiculous

 

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/north-carolina-school-system-pepper-spray-39021076

A North Carolina school system has adopted a policy allowing high school students to carry pepper spray this fall, a policy one board member said may be useful for students who encounter transgender classmates in the bathroom.

[StringJunky]

This is getting beyond ridiculousd

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/north-carolina-school-system-pepper-spray-39021076

For the most powrerfu nation in the world, this is very sad news. America, I am sad to say, is only a single country by name..

[Delta1212]

I'm personally wondering what is to stop the hypothetical sexual predator that is going to dress in drag to gain access to the women's room if trans people are allowed to use the proper bathrooms from simply abusing the current bathroom laws that are going around by falsely claiming that they were born a woman and therefore are legally mandated to use the women's room even though they look like a man.

 

Heck, that even seems like less effort than the reverse.

 

The idea that these laws are protecting anyone from "predators" is a joke. They exist exclusively to comfort those who think trans people are icky.

[Phi for All]

Did I miss where some kind of transgender gate was left open, and they suddenly started using public restrooms? I'm guessing they've been using the bathrooms of their choice for quite some time, and it's not been a problem until conservative fear of possibilities prompted this inane legislation.

[Delta1212]

Well, it started with a municipality in North Carolina making it illegal to discriminate against trans people, which prompted the state legislature to make it illegal for more local governments to make it illegal to discriminate against trans people and also mandating that people use the bathroom of the gender on their birth certificate.

 

That's how it got to be a national issue all of a sudden.

[andrewcellini]

My apologies, I think I misinterpreted your position.

It's quite alright, I'm probably not the most clear when expressing my views about political and social issues.

[Raider5678]

 

The irony of this ridiculous legislation is that more Republican men have been arrested for sexual misconduct in bathrooms while there are no reports of transgender being arrested for sexual misconduct in bathrooms.

 

Seriously? I know I'm a little late to respond to this, but SERIOUSLY? Am I the only one who sees that this is kind of biased? There are more Republicans (at least there are more then 0.3) than Transgender people you know, that may or may not play an independent variable. I mean seriously, did you even think that one through? Also, why is it only republicans? Or does Bill Clinton's case NOT count as misconduct? Also, more democrats commit sexual misconduct then transgender people. This is estimating that there are more sex offenders then there are transgender people. Geez man, come up with a half decent case here that's not biased that bad.

[Phi for All]

The article was about GOP lawmakers, not Republican men.

[John Cuthber]

Am I the only one who sees that this is kind of biased?

...Also, why is it only republicans?

Or does Bill Clinton's case NOT count as misconduct?...

Geez man, come up with a half decent case here that's not biased that bad.

In the way that you presented, yes, you are the only one.

Because only republicans are the ones making a fuss.

As far as I'm aware, Bills activities involved consenting adults so, no, that does NOT count as misconduct. (And I don't think it was in a bathroom either- but I didn't pay it that much attention.)

And the last one should be "come up with a half decent case here that's not biased that badly."

It's an adverb you need there, not an adjective.

 

so, you need to "come up with a half decent case here that's not biased that badly."

[Raider5678]

The article was about GOP lawmakers, not Republican men.

My bad +1

[Phi for All]

My bad +1

 

Only partly. It was misquoted that way to you in the link.

[Bells]

 

Seriously? I know I'm a little late to respond to this, but SERIOUSLY? Am I the only one who sees that this is kind of biased? There are more Republicans (at least there are more then 0.3) than Transgender people you know, that may or may not play an independent variable. I mean seriously, did you even think that one through? Also, why is it only republicans? Or does Bill Clinton's case NOT count as misconduct? Also, more democrats commit sexual misconduct then transgender people. This is estimating that there are more sex offenders then there are transgender people. Geez man, come up with a half decent case here that's not biased that bad.

Phi is correct, I should have said GOP lawmakers.

 

And that is the reality of the situation. Male GOP lawmakers have committed more sexual crimes in bathrooms than transgender people have. And yet the moral panic is aimed solely at transgender people.

 

There are no reports of transgender using their transgender status to access women's bathrooms to rape or commit sexual assault. Rape and sexual assault, be it in bathrooms or elsewhere is already illegal, in as much as it is already a criminal act, regardless of one's gender identity. The current push is to paint all transgender women as being possible rapists who lurk in women's bathrooms and change rooms to attack and rape women and girls is not supported by fact. There is no record of any transgender person using their gender identity as women, to deliberately target women in public bathrooms. And yet, this is now a law in some parts of the US? We have shared public bathrooms with transgender people all of our lives. Why is this such a huge issue now?

 

As for Bill Clinton, he had consensual sex with a consenting adult. Last I checked, that was not illegal. Raping and sexually molesting someone in a public toilet, like some GOP lawmakers have done, is illegal.

 

As for the political demographics of rapists, I would say it could be close to 50/50. No one really knows. Rape and sexual assault is illegal, regardless of one's gender status or political affiliation. These bathroom laws are being enacted with the specific intent of supposedly protecting women and girls when they go to the bathroom... But it is already illegal to rape or molest someone in a bathroom. So what is the point of this law? It isn't going to make the women safer. Transgender women aren't lurking in women's toilets so they can rape women. What it will do is increase the risk of rape for transgender women who are now forced to use the men's public bathrooms and change rooms. So who exactly are they meant to be protecting? Or is the point of the law to discriminate against members of the LGBT community?

 

Potential rape victims are safer in a women's bathroom with a transgender woman, than they are going on a date with their boyfriend or going home with their spouse or partner or even going to work with a male colleague. That is a fact. We are more likely to be raped by someone we know and trust and most of the time, it will happen in our own homes and I can attest to that with 100% certainty. I would have been safer in a public restroom with a transgender than I was in my own home.

 

But the fact is that transgender are not lurking in toilets so they can rape women and girls. Men who rape women and girls in public loo's aren't dressing up as women to commit their crimes. These laws are purely for the purpose of discrimination against LGBT.

[Raider5678]

There are no reports of transgender using their transgender status to access women's bathrooms to rape or commit sexual assault.

 

The attack isn't on transgender people mainly, it's about the people who simply "say" they are "transgender" to get inside the bathroom and rape someone. I mean I go to school, and since the law was changed I know 17 kids who went inside the opposite bathroom simply because they COULD. I mean, They don't identify as transgender, and I also know they are just doing it for kicks, and after a while it will stop, but still, the attack isn't on transgender people. If they're transgender, let them use what ever bathroom they want, thats their choice, but whats to stop abuse of the system? Because I'm pretty sure what happened in my school was "abuse"

Edited May 17, 2016 by Raider5678

[iNow]

Why is this such a huge issue now?

"We have no policies that people want. Our rhetoric doesn't match our actions. We need to continue finding ways to divert attention. The election is important and rapidly approaching. Quick, hurry... Throw a smoke bomb!! Hey!! Look over there, a pterodactyl!!"