Is this BEDROCK ? Things will always ultimately get better !

[tar]

Mike,

 

I think you are right in suggesting that the universe has to be able to build a car...because we have cars and there is nothing else but universe material and simple standard laws and materials from which the universe could have created a car.

 

That is, nature had to do it, because it got done, and there is nobody here but us chickens.

 

I don't think however you can say the universe values this thing more than that. That has more to do with things valuable to humans, and an ant or a super nova, or a grain of sand or a helium atom, might have, well obviously would have a different "thing" it was trying to accomplish.

 

So the universe getting better, is sort of a value judgement made by Mike. A black hole might get better as is gobbles up matter and light, but that is not automatically good for the objects that had an identity before they were torn apart by the gravity of the black hole.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited June 7, 2016 by tar

[disarray]

@Mike Smith Cosmos

 

Roughly 68%of the Universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 27%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the Universe"

http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy/

 

I don't know by what logic anyone would assume that the universe was meaningless on the basis that so much has not been observed by humans. Which eminent scientists believe this?

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

@Mike Smith Cosmos

 

Roughly 68%of the Universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 27%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the Universe"

http://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-is-dark-energy/

 

I don't know by what logic anyone would assume that the universe was meaningless on the basis that so much has not been observed by humans. Which eminent scientists believe this?

.

That is a very impressive reference to the NASA comments . Here it explains how little we have observed or understood of what is out there .

 

So a purpose , if there is one , for all of that described ' dark matter' and ' dark energy ' , let alone the small fraction that we are starting to observe through the modern instruments , telescopes , and spacecraft .

 

A purpose for all that ,is beyond our ability to observe . That is true.

 

So the questions remain

 

( a ) can something exist , without a purpose ? And without observation by any one

 

Or

 

(b) does it need some form of originator to give it purpose , to act as observer. And originator .

 

 

By way of a ' mental experiment ':

 

One could imagine , from here on in , the human species continues to expand somehow , across the universe. It finds itself in zillions of years time spread out comfortably across the whole universe. At that time the communications systems could be beyond imagination , making the ' internet' look like a toy .

 

At that far future time , the whole universe would be observed , thus could have purpose .

 

Which would be something along the lines we described earlier.

The universe was there for its occupants to enjoy life and it's originators to be proud of its

existence.

 

You can argue about who created what , but it fulfills the idea of purpose, and observation ,

 

.. From original definition " Quote "Is there any meaning to the 'definitions use' of the words ( Reason, Done , Created) " unquote

 

but leaves the issue of origination ? ( I did it, no you did it , no nobody did it ?? ) ( what " created that lot ? )

 

So by our mental experiment we have managed to zoom back to the present day , with a satisfactory , purpose , by observation . But we seem to have captured an ' originator ' in our net into the future .

 

Mike

 

Now we have derived a purpose ( all be it via a thought experiment setting ) . We can make a test , by making a measurement .

We are saying betterment ( being an increase in a value of state of purpose) .

And we have two different times to make the measurement .

 

1) now , today . How is the universe ' fit for purpose ' right now . 2016 June/July

 

2) then zillions of years time . How is the universe ' fit for purpose ' , then . 2,000,000 years or however long, in the future?

 

Failing all this ( no purpose whatsoever) . How could all this lot just appear out of nowhere? One moment absolute zero . The next moment ' everything ' , sounds a bit ' Hitch hikers guide to the Galaxy?

Edited June 8, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

.

We should not shy away from the word 'Create' .

 

My mother and farther created me some 72 years ago ( I am glad they did ) .

They obviously had a purpose . ( to give me life , a child ) , I think they hoped to be proud of their creation .

 

A create something nearly every day ( a Painting) . I usually have a purpose. Today to illustrate the Ocean .

 

I hope I will be proud of it . I have done one this morning , fellow painters said ( Mike, I like that)

 

When it comes to the Universe. We should not shy away , and go all twitchy . When we use the word ( Create ) .

 

There is a universe here , no doubts at all. All one needs to do now , is to fathom what is the Purpose, and what exactly is its Creation.

 

We can , if we keep our head , and not go all twitchy , and investigate .

 

Mike

[tar]

Mike,

 

But bedrock was once molten lava, it is only the base, given a starting point.

 

I am taking your thought that things will always get better, in terms of the truth will always out, or always win out in the end, or in the sense that good will always triumph over evil, or maybe in the biblical sense of there being a time for every purpose under heaven...

 

There is however a relativity related to value. One man's reward is another man's punishment. One man's victory, another man's defeat. One man's answer is another's question. One man's goal the same man's next starting point.

 

Taking the thought all the way to a creator, that had a purpose, I logically go back to a thought I had as a 13 year old, thinking about God, as the ultimate parent, and a pledge I made to this creator, to keep its secret. My thought was that god already knew the beginning and end and already knew everything that ever happened and ever will. It was all contained in God's knowledge...it was all known to God and therefore there was nothing outside of god, nothing else but god, no place to go, nothing to do, alone and complete, a singularity with no motion or change possible...and creation, or the universe, or me, was god's way of forgetting he was alone and had nothing to do and no where to go. So I pledged to keep it a secret. I have spilled the beans before, and I do it here, but with the knowledge that its OK because it is impossible to keep a secret from yourself.

 

Regards, TAR

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Mike,

 

Taking the thought all the way to a creator, that had a purpose, I logically go back to a thought I had as a 13 year old, thinking about God, as the ultimate parent, and a pledge I made to this creator, to keep its secret. My thought was that god already knew the beginning and end and already knew everything that ever happened and ever will. It was all contained in God's knowledge...it was all known to God and therefore there was nothing outside of god, nothing else but god, no place to go, nothing to do, alone and complete, a singularity with no motion or change possible...and creation, or the universe, or me, was god's way of forgetting he was alone and had nothing to do and no where to go. So I pledged to keep it a secret. I have spilled the beans before, and I do it here, but with the knowledge that its OK because it is impossible to keep a secret from yourself.

 

Regards, TAR

 

.

I am not totally clear " what exactly you are keeping a secret " ?

 

Do you mean , the whole universe being an experiment ! ?

 

Mike

Edited June 8, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[tar]

Mike,

 

This is just my take. My way of combining the literal with the figurative. In Eastern religions there is a constant march toward perfection, toward a reuniting with the Brahman or the lifeforce or what ever you want to call it. In the biblical tradition of Moses and Christ and Mohammed, there is a one god, a creator and judge to which you return after mortal pursuits and by which you are judged as to whether you did it right or not...but many talk of the separation of man from nature, the fall of man, the imperfection of being separate from the universe, and the ultimate goal of reunification. To remove the separation that human consciousness creates, to lose the identity of being a single point of focus, and regain the overall, transcendent view, where everything is one.

 

To this, and in relation to the OP there is a constant betterment. A striving to rejoin, to remove ignorance and know everything. The more the better. Knowing everything would be better than knowing just what is in your backyard.

 

But the secret I promised to keep with God, the one I didn't keep, was that my awareness of the universe from this single point of view, of TAR, was required for there to be something different than one thing. So we are doing the universe a favor, by not being a singularity anymore...or at least not a singularity at the moment. We have different points of view, and as you say, observations are made, and reality is thusly established.

 

Regards. TAR

Edited June 9, 2016 by tar

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

.

To make an explosion the size of the universe is not necessarily as difficult as one might imagine .

 

 

When I was on holiday in France many years ago , with not a lot to do . I worked out how many generations of doubling a meter cube , over and over and over continuously . How many generation it would take . I can't remember but I was shocked how small it was ....

 

Something like 450 times or 2700 times , I can't remember , other than I was shocked.

It is on a par with folding a piece of card 45 times and it will reach the moon , or a grain of wheat on the first square of a chess board , double each square . And there is not enough grain in the whole world to fill the last square.

 

The major item you need is a duplicator ( X 2 ) .......and so on .

 

So a creator of the universe matter could be quite small compared to the size of the universe. Obviously there is a bit more to do than make a lot of matter all over the place . And maybe a lot of maths ( perish the thought ) . Some of the detail , will no doubt be pretty ,hairy. But if you want to put on a good show , and a place for conscious life to live , well.......

 

 

This is just my take. .........

 

To this, and in relation to the OP there is a constant betterment. A striving to rejoin, to remove ignorance and know everything. The more the better. Knowing everything would be better than knowing just what is in your backyard.

 

But the secret I promised to keep with God, the one I didn't keep, was that my awareness of the universe from this single point of view, of TAR, was required for there to be something different than one thing. So we are doing the universe a favor, by not being a singularity anymore...or at least not a singularity at the moment. We have different points of view, and as you say, observations are made, and reality is thusly established.

 

Regards. TAR

..

 

Well I quite liked listening to your comments there 'tar'. It's time we did some more experiments !

 

Mike

Edited June 9, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[tar]

Mike,

 

I remember how well our first experiment went. I enjoy being 1 for 1. Proving ourselves wrong would probably be easy. Better for the moment to live with the success.

 

Regards, TAR

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

.

In order to put a probe down , and make a test, at this present time , into the Universe centred currently on our situation here on earth.

( For Purpose)

 

We need to restate the definition of Purpose :-

 

Definition of the word , " Purpose " on Google is :-

 

------------------------------ -------------------------------------- -----------------------------------

 

PURPOSE

 

" the reason for which something is done or created or for which something exists."

Eg.

"the purpose of the meeting is to appoint a trustee"

synonyms: motive, motivation, grounds, cause, impetus, occasion, reason, point, basis, justification More

 

From this definition , Initially, we have three pertinent words :-

" reason " given as a cause , " done ". , "Created "

 

QUOTE

................ " the REASON for which something is DONE or CREATED or for which something EXISTS "

UNQUOTE

 

--------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- -----------------------------

 

Something that 'EXISTS', has been 'DONE 'or 'CREATED'. And thus must have a 'REASON' or 'PURPOSE'.

 

It clearly has been 'done' or ' created' , by SOME MEANS OR OTHER , with a reason to be OBSERVED with the reason and purpose of APPRECIATION by the ' conscious , living species, existing in this Universe' . currently only proved to be at our home world Earth .

Similarly OBSERVATION and appreciation by ' CREATOR ' , whatever that is (A Nothing spontaneously starting everything , A body of Creators, A Creator ) Yet to be agreed .

 

It is anticipated that this reason / purpose , after a correction process, will be duplicated , many , many, many fold throughout the universe * , which if duplicated to the same standard will provide the opportunity , to make a test , at that future time . Judging by the progress of conscious human existence over its history , we can anticipate further improvements over the coming eons of existence . ( at that time , we can anticipate an immensely more widespread , heightened , existence , following the general progress over civilised history being extended into the future, ( NOT including the recent Centuary of unique world wide , warlike behaviour. Otherwise we will not survive ) .

 

Thinking mainly of the intellectual state of human consciousness , we can anticipate a ' betterment ' of living existence. Thus things will always ultimately get better . This is inbuilt into the Universe . This is bedrock . Otherwise it would not work . ' Then' , the whole purpose of the universe will be a success .

 

Mike

 

Ps. If not , the whole thing would be unthinkable and a complete waste of time and resources.

Which is not , I would think, the original Purpose. These latter comments are perhaps a little presumptuous . However considering the intellectual progress , over the millenniums , and the capabilities of humankind , it would seem the ingredients for optimism are strong.

 

* I have done a little research to assertain the Future density by ' human' occupation of the universe .

Edited June 10, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[tar]

.

 

It clearly has been 'done' or ' created' , by SOME MEANS OR OTHER , with a reason to be OBSERVED with the reason and purpose of APPRECIATION by the ' conscious , living species, existing in this Universe' . currently only proved to be at our home world Earth .

Similarly OBSERVATION and appreciation by ' CREATOR ' , whatever that is (A Nothing spontaneously starting everything , A body of Creators, A Creator ) Yet to be agreed .

 

 

Well, I am thinking we have to get real basic here, and not try to prove any complicated reason prior a thing coming into being. I am thinking the reason presents itself after the thing happens. That random motion, the interplay between one thing and another, causes there to be situations, patterns, areas of concentration and rarity, where an "entity" emerges. Once such a situation is manifest, then there is an identity, that may or may not be recognized, by anyone, anywhere, but may just be a situation that "belongs" only to the participating entities.

 

Take a wisp of smoke, curling in the air for a moment and becoming rarer and rarer until the particles that make it up dissipate into the general atmosphere. Still bound to the Earth by gravity, and changing the chemical constituency of the Earth's atmosphere just that little bit. The curve of the wisp, that moment ago is locally forgotten, but would be remembered had a flash of light happened at the same time and an area (like a photographic plate) been present, where the particular curve would have an analog in the medium of the plate, (given a focusing lens that would repeat the pattern on the other side of the focal point.) (not unlike a human eye and brain upon which the image is cast)

 

But the curl of smoke is not forgotten yet to the universe. Like a pebble dropped in a pond, the ripples go out, the light patterns from the incident have no boundry they can proceed outward, the photons bouncing off stuff and being absorbed, for quite a long time and traveling quite a long distance. And the chemical constituents of the air are still present, a human passing by might take a whiff of the air and call the park ranger.

 

So was there a purpose to the curl...to alert the park ranger? I think the purpose comes after the fact.

 

Better we think in terms of entities and memory and the interplay between all entities in the universe. We would not see the light of a quasar had this location not been receiving photons from that spot since that time that the universe became transparent to photons, and the first one from that spot where the quasar would develop that reached this spot where the Earth would develop made a connection a communication with here that has been going on for eons. And vice a versa. Any development of one area of space, has, within its history the "noticing" of the announcements made, in photon terms, of the activities and patterns of the rest of the universe.

 

So purpose, in terms of appreciation, or noticing the rest of the place is not a new thing, that started with human consciousness. It started when the universe became transparent to photons.

 

Regards, TAR

Which reminds me of one of my pet ideas. Each atom, since it came into being, has been "trying" to get rid of its energy, and releasing photons as its electrons seek the lowest possible energy level...problem is, the rest of the universe is attempting the same feat...and for every photon released there are billions on their way, sent by other releasers, directly toward each thusly foiled atom.

Edited June 10, 2016 by tar

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Well, I am thinking we have to get real basic here..

 

Take a wisp of smoke, curling in the air.....

 

So was there a purpose to ....

 

So purpose, in terms of appreciation, or noticing the rest of the place is not a new thing, that started with human consciousness. It started when the universe became transparent to photons......

 

 

 

 

Which reminds me of one of my pet ideas. Each atom, since it came into being, has been "trying" to get rid of its energy......

.

 

Well getting ' real basic ' is exactly what is needed here where we are trying to work out :-

 

--------------- The purpose of the Universe , and whether it is getting better as it ages? ----------------

 

If you follow the motorway north from Exeter to Bristol you will come across the " willow man"

 

Clearly the artist had a purpose ? But what is it ?

 

 

Whether the Universe is getting better ?

 

........ Well on the one hand ..

 

Entropy is creating disorder as it tears things apart into pieces .

 

........ Whereas on the other hand as time moves forward

 

Gravity and Life ( amongst other things ) is making things more ordered as things are brought together in complex molecules and Sentient Life .

 

Surely a Grand Purpose ?

Edited June 11, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

.

Yes ! This really is BEDROCK .

 

The universe has acquired two abilities . ( whose origin is purposeful and intelligent)

 

The universe contains in its mechanism ( it's scientific , cause and effect - Creative Mechanism , as well as Breaking apart - entropy system )

 

( A ) the ability by a process ,to be broken up , to break down to small and smaller and smaller pieces ( eg large hadron collider, Suns etc )

.Entropy in action .( a breaking up into many smaller and smaller pieces)

 

 

( B) the ability to combine by Gravity, and other attractive forces, ( Suns centres, atoms etc ) , so as to produce , more and more advantageous pieces ( eg atoms , planets, Suns , living things , conscious living beings , and complex atomic/ molecular / elements ) .also. By an adaption system within reproduction, So as to furnish life and the full scope of mineralogy , with better and better features.

 

CREATION IN ACTION . ..... I'M IMPRESSED .

 

So indemic in the universe are two opposing , yet , creative operations, so as to Create the universe we are discovering.

 

I have to say that is ' one hell of a Purpose' . And it's getting Better all the time !

 

Mike

Edited June 11, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[tar]

Mike,

 

So we have creation and destruction. But the purpose is not clear.

 

Is it to destroy or build? Come together, or tear apart?

 

Is an atom attempting to come to rest, or to make itself known to the rest of the universe?

 

Which is better, to be a universe with separation and divisions and separate entities going about their business of existing, or is it better to be a black hole singularity?

 

Regards, TAR

Edited June 11, 2016 by tar

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Mike,

 

So we have creation and destruction. But the purpose is not clear.

 

Is it to destroy or build? Come together, or tear apart?

 

Is an atom attempting to come to rest, or to make itself known to the rest of the universe?

 

Which is better, to be a universe with separation and divisions and separate entities going about their business of existing, or is it better to be a black hole singularity?

 

Regards, TAR

.

 

I have added a few extra ( attractive and repulsive , sometimes destructive forces , and even they are not ALL ) .

 

Clearly , to make a universe , you can't just blow everything apart and then pull everything together , and hope it makes a universe. However , the mechanism of ( attraction and repulsion ) does seem to be a vital ingredient , in one very complex nature or another . Perhaps it's like having two sharp blades in a pair of sissors and some pretty strong glue when making a paper castle .

 

But an examination of the attractive forces present at the very small scale , in atoms ( including positive protons , negative electrons . Quarks with the strong forces holding them together .) is very beneficial.

 

As you say Gravity with, Suns, stars, and black holes, dark matter, dark attractors, as well as repulsive supernova, exploding stars and dark energy .

 

The forging and anvils of creation are many and manifold. But the balancing , relentless forces of disassembly, within the processes of entropy and other , moderate things in such a way as to give us the universe , with a growing presence of ( self aware ) life , rather than just a massive explosion, with bits and pieces everywhere !

 

All that is described here , is purposeful, and getting better all the time .

 

 

Mike

Edited June 11, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Lyudmilascience]

i agree with you that everything is bound to get better up until the point where the universe ends or perhaps it will never end but life will eventually not exist on this planet and i do not think things will get better from there, i personaly do not belive they humans will ever exist again if they all die out, i hope that either never happens or if it has to happen it will be painless and instantanious for everyone.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

i agree with you that everything is bound to get better up until the point where the universe ends or perhaps it will never end but life will eventually not exist on this planet and i do not think things will get better from there, i personaly do not belive they humans will ever exist again if they all die out, i hope that either never happens or if it has to happen it will be painless and instantanious for everyone.

 

.

 

Thank you for your comments . I think optimism is a fine thing . I genuinely think though , that the universe has an inbuilt mechanism to get better .

 

I believe this is true for the material content. Land masses , worlds, star systems , galaxies and the universe as a whole . But also in time for living beings .

 

Where one can take this ' condition ' . In the near future , remains to be seen ? We may face a period of major upheaval which one might say that is getting worse. But in the long term perspective ' things will get better ' . As I believe this is an indemic nature of the universe.

 

Mike

Edited June 27, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Lyudmilascience]

.

 

Thank you for your comments . I think optimism is a fine thing . I genuinely think though , that the universe has an inbuilt mechanism to get better .

 

I believe this is true for the material content. Land masses , worlds, star systems , galaxies and the universe as a whole . But also in time for living beings .

 

Where one can take this ' condition ' . In the near future , remains to be seen ? We may face a period of major upheaval which one might say that is getting worse. But in the long term perspective ' things will get better ' . As I believe this is an indemic nature of the universe.

 

Mike

good topic, i like to wonder about the future of humanity and the universt too, and also try to think optomisticly. so do you belive that it will get better for humanity? because things might get better for one species but worse for another. I think it is always good for people long term even during the bad periods its a lesson people learn for the future. i belive it will never be as bad as when things started.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

good topic, i like to wonder about the future of humanity and the universt too, and also try to think optomisticly. so do you belive that it will get better for humanity? because things might get better for one species but worse for another. I think it is always good for people long term even during the bad periods its a lesson people learn for the future. i belive it will never be as bad as when things started.

 

.

I think ultimately things will be for the better. As that's how the universe is made and the direction it is heading .

However , I do also believe we are soon to go through a very difficult transition period . As many different directions, all point to massive change . Exciting but difficult if we are not adaptable . We need to be "Very adaptable , ." Extremely adaptable . "

 

Mike

Edited June 29, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Currently, well ? :-

 

Perhaps the movement in administration in both America and the U.K, will bring about some interesting changes?

 

Mike

Edited January 16, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[OldChemE]

Things progress in a way to get better?? Didn't work for the Dinosaurs, and I wouldn't count on it for us either.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Things progress in a way to get better?? Didn't work for the Dinosaurs, and I wouldn't count on it for us either.

.

 

I think my main reasoning was .

 

If things as a whole ( bedrock ) , did not ultimately get better , -:

Then we would not exist in the depths of a beautiful and working Universe. If it were to go in the other direction , relentlessly , like ' bedrock things go to worse , then the universe would have gone into ablivion years , millennia , ago . And we would not be here to detect its presence . Is that not so ?

 

Mike

[Ophiolite]

1. Goecentric

2. Anthropomorphic

3. Value judgements

4. Not much science.

 

I still don't get the analogy (?) of bedrock. That confuses more than clarifies, at least for me.

[Strange]

If things as a whole ( bedrock ) , did not ultimately get better , -:

Then we would not exist in the depths of a beautiful and working Universe. If it were to go in the other direction , relentlessly , like ' bedrock things go to worse , then the universe would have gone into ablivion years , millennia , ago . And we would not be here to detect its presence . Is that not so ?

 

 

Not necessarily. We might be half-way through the process of the universe going to hell in a handcart. (You have another thread with your less optimistic view of the state of the world.)

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Not necessarily. We might be half-way through the process of the universe going to hell in a handcart. (You have another thread with your less optimistic view of the state of the world.)

.

Well I am not so sure you have interpreted my ' other thread ' as you say , ' correctly '

 

If the full story is fathomed . Then 'Civiisation that has got itself into a pickle ' will end hopefully, in its present form , and a New body of Mankind will arise that is more harmonious and settled. . Maybe soon !

A world wide Paradise, in time . As the ' man ' at his death said . " you will be with me in Paradise ". Then they both died , at the hands of the Roman Empire . Now if that counts for anything . There it is " Future World Wide Paradise " promised , by some means or other . Starting off, Any time soon!

 

Mike

Edited January 24, 2017 by Mike Smith Cosmos