Who was Abraham that religions get named after him?

[Robittybob1]

Is there any truth to his existence? What did he really do to get all this respect?

[Strange]

 

 

The Abraham story cannot be definitively related to any specific time, and it is widely agreed that the patriarchal age, along with the exodus and the period of the judges, is a late literary construct that does not relate to any period in actual history.^[3]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham

[Robittybob1]

When I first read Genesis I was amazed by this particular sentence

Genesis15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

 

So with Hubble we have began to count the number of stars. Without going into full details I have just Googled "the number of stars in the Universe" and got the result:

 

Kornreich used a very rough estimate of 10 trillion galaxies in the universe. Multiplying that by the Milky Way's estimated 100 billion stars results in a large number indeed: 100 octillion stars, or 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 stars, or a "1" with 29 zeros after it.May 31, 2014

Would it ever be possible to have that many descendents? My first thought was that the Earth would have to be around for a hell of long time for that to happen.

I have not attempted to time that, i.e to do the calculation. Even if we humans could keep the population at 10 billion how many generations would that be?

Is the Solar system going to last that long? Even in this rough calculation there are so many errors, but it might just give us an idea how long Abraham's descendents will need to be around.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Robittybob1

[Strange]

It is a MYTH. Why are you worrying about these numbers? You might as well wonder why there are Seven Dwarfs and seven days in a week.

[Robittybob1]

It is a MYTH. Why are you worrying about these numbers? You might as well wonder why there are Seven Dwarfs and seven days in a week.

As I said "when I read Genesis", I read this and considered the implications. It challenges believers and unbelievers. Half the active threads (that are favorites of mine) on the forum seem to have some religious philosophical aspect to them. It seems a very topical myth.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Robittybob1

[imatfaal]

It is a MYTH. Why are you worrying about these numbers? You might as well wonder why there are Seven Dwarfs and seven days in a week.

 

Damn - I had never noticed that; it's quite profound. You can even pair off the Dwarfs with the days; Sleepy on a Sunday/Day of Rest, Grumpy on a Monday cos it's back to work, Happy on a Friday cos it is the weekend (ok so I need to work a bit on the others). Snow White is obviously Christmas Day and thus is Jesus - dies and comes back to life providing salvation, the apple is the fruit of the tree of forbidden knowledge ... but that should be eaten by man not Jesus and the whole thing would make the dwarfs the apostles and there aren't twelve. Nah - sorry you are barking up the wrong tree; there are seven dwarfs because Noah was told to bring 7 pairs of each creature to the ark (genesis 7:2) and unfortunately all the female dwarfs got pissed playing strip poker and got thrown overboard for being rude and unclean

[Strange]

That Snow White analogy is interesting. I wonder if the ideas of resurrection, etc. fed into the story. Or maybe the basic tale is old enough that it is pre-Christian and just shares common themes.

 

... google ... google ...

 

This article suggests there may be some historical facts behind the story: http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/exploring-true-origins-snow-white-and-seven-dwarfs-004150

 

It may have then incorporated mythic elements that everyone would have been familiar with to give it greater "depth".

[Robittybob1]

I find the maths of the situation a lot more interesting. Can a man ever have 10^29 descendents?

[Strange]

Oops. Forget that. Need to work it out again...

Edited May 31, 2016 by Strange

[Robittybob1]

Could that number only be achieved if the descendents of Abraham inhabit new worlds? It is hard to imagine the Earth supporting more than 10 billion humans for the next 5 billion years. Even that might not be enough time to get to 10^29.

[Strange]

Lets say, for simplicity, that the population increases by a factor of 2 at each generation. Then it would take about 69 generations for the population to increase by 10²⁹. If we allow about 30 years per generation, then that is about 2000 years. Clearly, this would require the population to spread rapidly to new planets to have enough spaces and resources.

 

(These numbers seem quite small but I think that is because population growth doesn't really work like that, rather than I have made a gross error. Although that is entirely possible, as well.)

[swansont]

When I first read Genesis I was amazed by this particular sentence

 

So with Hubble we have began to count the number of stars. Without going into full details I have just Googled "the number of stars in the Universe" and got the result:

 

So? The number of stars visible to the naked eye is not the same thing as the number the Hubble could count.

[Robittybob1]

Lets say, for simplicity, that the population increases by a factor of 2 at each generation. Then it would take about 69 generations for the population to increase by 10²⁹. If we allow about 30 years per generation, then that is about 2000 years. Clearly, this would require the population to spread rapidly to new planets to have enough spaces and resources.

 

(These numbers seem quite small but I think that is because population growth doesn't really work like that, rather than I have made a gross error. Although that is entirely possible, as well.)

That would require each family to produce 4 viable offspring per generation. China's one child policy definitely was set too low and now they have brought that up to 2, AFAIK. You need 2 or more per family just to break even (in an ideal situation).

In historic times even if every family had 4 kids, when you take disease, accidents, wars etc into account the population would be barely climbing (my guess again sorry).

So? The number of stars visible to the naked eye is not the same thing as the number the Hubble could count.

I've heard this said before. So that would depend on where he lived, for if he came down to Southland NZ (where I used to live) on a clear night with good eyesight you would see a whole lot more stars (I'd guess probably 100x more) than in Iraq or wherever Abraham supposedly was at the time.

Was that prophecy dependent on Abraham's eyesight, or was it the actual number of stars there was in the Universe"?

Edited May 31, 2016 by Robittybob1

[swansont]

I've heard this said before. So that would depend on where he lived, for if he came down to Southland NZ (where I used to live) on a clear night with good eyesight you would see a whole lot more stars (I'd guess probably 100x more) than in Iraq or wherever Abraham supposedly was at the time.

Was that prophecy dependent on Abraham's eyesight, or was it the actual number of stars there was in the Universe"?

 

Since they didn't know about all the stars, I suspect people thought the two were one and the same back then.

[Robittybob1]

Since they didn't know about all the stars, I suspect people thought the two were one and the same back then.

That is possible, but I took it in more from the perspective of "God" who should have known how many stars there actually were.

This 10^29 is still only a rough estimate, it hasn't been an actual count. It wasn't a matter of Abraham being right about the number. "No sorry Ab, you were one out". I find it hard enough to count animals let alone count the stars. With these verses of scripture there never seems to be any time limit, so if Abraham didn't do it one of his descendents could complete the job but the promise is suppose to always hold.

Like Abraham wasn't told to "count the stars right now (there and then) for that is going to determine the number of your descendents".

Lets say, for simplicity, that the population increases by a factor of 2 at each generation. Then it would take about 69 generations for the population to increase by 10²⁹. If we allow about 30 years per generation, then that is about 2000 years. Clearly, this would require the population to spread rapidly to new planets to have enough spaces and resources.

 

(These numbers seem quite small but I think that is because population growth doesn't really work like that, rather than I have made a gross error. Although that is entirely possible, as well.)

1.58456E+29 =2^97 (96 rather than 69). 2910 years, it clearly didn't happen. Or did you take into account the generations that had passed on?

 

If we Include the past generations as well as the current.

3.96141E+28 = total living breeding descendants, 95 generations, 2850 years, 1.18842E+29 = total living and "non breeding" descendants.

 

Clearly, this would require the population to spread rapidly to new planets to have enough spaces and resources.

That was my surprising conclusion too, but will that happen? I think we have a little way to go but it isn't totally out of the question any more.

Either that or there is some real bad math in the OT.

For a little further on Abraham is told his descendents will be enslaved etc, obviously referring to the Hebrews being enslaved by Egypt.

When I looked at how many arrive and how many leave they had to multiply, not just at the power of 2, but the power of 120 per couple per generation and that defied all my imagination. Either that or I got my maths wrong too.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Robittybob1

[Strange]

Either that or there is some real bad math in the OT.

 

 

What a surprise.

[Prometheus]

The Abrahamic god doesn't even know the value of pi. I wouldn't count on him for maths lessons.

[Robittybob1]

The Abrahamic god doesn't even know the value of pi. I wouldn't count on him for maths lessons.

The apparent error could quite easily be explained by the thickness of the sides or the places where the measurements were made from.

 

23 Then he made the sea of cast metal. It was round, ten cubits from brim to brim, and five cubits high, and a line of thirty cubits measured its circumference.

Did they have parts of a cubit in those days? 31.41593 cubits?? Show me an example where they describe a fraction of a cubit please.

[Strange]

Did they have parts of a cubit in those days? 31.41593 cubits?? Show me an example where they describe a fraction of a cubit please.

 

 

You think God can't do fractions? But he is omnipotent!

 

"This opening was round, and with its basework it measured a cubit and a half."

1 Kings 7:31

(Among many others.)

[Robittybob1]

 

 

You think God can't do fractions? But he is omnipotent!

 

"This opening was round, and with its basework it measured a cubit and a half."

1 Kings 7:31

(Among many others.)

OK you taught me something there. What other fractions were in common use in the OT e.g a quarter or a third? Pi being not a defined fraction maybe was a bit more difficult to express (not for God for the value of Pi is very consistent in nature) as the laws of physics seem to be built into the Universe. No one (that I'm aware of) can really explain the origin of the laws of physics.

It depends on the advancement of math and science, that has allowed us to talk in such complicated numbers such as Pi.

The way we express ourselves has evolved over the years.

[Prometheus]

Pi being not a defined fraction maybe was a bit more difficult to express

 

The Babylonians and Egyptians expressed better approximations of pi a thousand years before the old testament was written.

[Strange]

 

The Babylonians and Egyptians expressed better approximations of pi a thousand years before the old testament was written.

 

And as much of the Bible is taken rom those sources, they could have used that information.

[Externet]

^"....5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring^[a] be.”

⁶ Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness....."

 

Wait a moment... The creator of the stars asked that guy to count the stars ? Died before finishing ? And the count was after pencil and paper were created; or was it chisel and stone ?

[Robittybob1]

 

The Babylonians and Egyptians expressed better approximations of pi a thousand years before the old testament was written.

Some were getting close

 

One Babylonian tablet (ca. 1900–1680 BC) indicates a value of 3.125 for pi, which is a closer approximation.

Is that 3 and 1/8th? When was Abraham supposed to have been around? http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Abraham.aspx

 

 

Abraham

The patriarch Abraham (c. 1996 BC-1821 BC) started with humble beginnings as a son of Ur. Abraham is now regarded as one of the most influential people in all of history. The world's three largest monotheistic religions—in fact possibly monotheism itself—found their beginnings with him. Over 3 billion people in the modern world cite Abraham as the "father" of their religion. Abraham was promised by his God descendants as numerous as the stars of the sky, but today two branches of his family, the Jews and the Muslims, continue to battle for his birthright.

Did he need Pi to count the stars? He might have needed it to calculate the percentage of the sampled area to the globe. I assume he knew that the stars appear to travel across the sky so that new stars rise in the East as the night wears on. If he counted the stars in a 1 degree arc would he have known to multiply that by 360? Did the ancients have quick measure for degrees e.g the thickness of your thumb at arms length is how many degrees? Here is a guide:

 

The width of your little finger at arm’s length is 1 degree - See more at: http://oneminuteastronomer.com/860/measuring-sky/#sthash.Suu4D2RG.dpuf

^"....5 He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring^[a] be.”

⁶ Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness....."

 

Wait a moment... The creator of the stars asked that guy to count the stars ? Died before finishing ? And the count was after pencil and paper were created; or was it chisel and stone ?

I don't think Abraham even bothered counting them. He knew there were thousands and that was enough for him. That's that second bit "Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness....."

Had he started to count he would have been blasted for doing that. But irrespective of that, now that we have counted the stars, what does that do to the promise given to Abram? It is hard to imagine how one person could get 10^29 "offspring".

Edited June 1, 2016 by Robittybob1

[Strange]

Did he need Pi to count the stars?

 

 

You have a totally extraordinary ability to miss the point. It is amazing. If there were Olympics in missing the point, you would get Gold.