My near death event? (I hope you find it of interest?)

[Alan McDougall]

The night my heart stopped and I flat-lined

 

Hello everyone please read this updated, edited version, which better describes what happened to me night my heart stopped beating in 2011

On the night of 18th, August 2011 at approximately 9.30 pm, my heart stopped beating numerous times, both at home and later at Sunninghill Hospital.

 

On resuscitation table due to third stage or total, AV heart block. I went through the whole drama of my heart stopping, flat- lining over and over again, adrenaline, atropine were injected directly into my heart and the shock paddles and chest depressions used over and over again in a desperate effort to get my heart to beat again on its own without help.

 

I had taken a nap on that Thursday night, and a dear friend of mine, Tony Martin was somehow moved to phoned late at night, a thing he had never done before.

 

I woke up with the phone ringing due to his call, with great fear because my heart was reacting in a manner that I had never experienced until that moment, it was going heart crazy in my chest hesitating then beating and then, almost stopping completely,

 

I cried out to my daughter Desiree for her to get my wife to phone for an ambulance

 

My wife immediately called the for the ambulance and they got to my home in ten minutes. Sunninghill hospital is less than a half kilometer from my home and I was there in five minutes and when I arrived, expert medical attention was immediate.

 

I saw my daughter Desiree in the passage and called out weakly for her to tell my wife Denise, that I was having a heart attack. I do not think my wife believed me, but after looking at me with my face which now looked like death and sweating body, she called the ambulance, which most fortunately to my survival reached our home in less than ten minutes. (South Africa's 911)

Note! If my Christian friend of some thirty-five years, Tony Martin, had not phoned, from the town of George in South Africa to Johannesburg some thousand miles away, at the exact moment he did, I would never have woken up and would have died in my sleep.

 

I am sure God moved Tony that night to phone me when he did, which for him was a very unusual hour at about 9 pm. Tony never phones me so late at night and maybe he can explain what made him call me or why he was moved to call me at that exact moment in time.

 

His phone call woke me up from a deep sleep from which I would not have awakened and from I would have died in my sleep, because I was unaware in my sleeping state the fact that my heart was going wild in my chest, a somnambulist battle of life or death

Tony could hear over the phone that there was something really wrong going on which me. He said over the phone “Alan McDougall you don’t sound right, are you OK?’ I replied “No”!! “Tony something is very wrong” “you phone back a little later”.

 

I put down the phone and could feel my heart actually vibrating in a frightening way, it would stop completely and I would lose consciousness for a while, and then regain awareness, but not know where I was, or who I was, as I struggled to survive, during this frightening life or death episode.

 

I became ghastly pale and started to sweat profusely. I did not realize at this stage know how very close to death I came that night.

 

It is very scary when I looked at wife or daughter and saw them actually becoming dimmer and dimmer in my eyes because my brain was being deprived of oxygen.

 

It was then that I began then to move in and out of consciousness on the very edge of death.

At the hospital, my blood pressure reading was zero.

 

I now entered a life-threatening desperate state of AV heart block (stopping and starting) I recall very little of what happened to me that night, because I had begun to go in and out of consciousness, until I finally became fully conscious the next morning with a temporary heart pacemaker installed in my heart to keep me alive.

 

I had to wait a day or two in the hospital for Doctor Rodney King Cardiologist, to get my medical aid to agree to the fitting of a permanent heart pacemaker, under my skin in my chest wall. This pacemaker cost about sixty thousand South African Rand or about nine thousand American (USA) dollars.

 

I only conscious of a just a little of what was going on in those three hours that the team of committed doctors who refused to give up on me in the very difficult task of restoring my heart beat and save my life This was a battle of life or death

 

However, I have lately begun to remember more and more about some rather odd things I saw and heard while on the resuscitation table that night.

 

Denise, my wife was kept in the dark by the medical staff and did not know until the next morning how really sick her husband has been or that he had metaphorically knocked on the gates of death, survived to live again, hopefully, many more years as husband and father to his children.

 

Over the period of three hours, each time my heart stopped and I flat-line, I went somewhere, not of this world and each time the emergency team of doctors in Sunninghill Hospital got my heart to beat I came back.

 

Each time my heart stopped I seem to go away for an eternity to elsewhere, but when they started it up again, I returned to life from this elsewhere seemingly in contrast, without even the smallest moment of time passing.

 

I remember being vaguely aware and conscious of what was going on around me. But kept going in and out of consciousness during the continual attempts at resuscitation.

 

The team of doctors and nursing assistants were desperately trying to get a needle into one of my veins. I have very poor veins and they are fairly deep under my skin and difficult to locate. Later back in the emergency care ward after I finally became fully conscious I noticed that both my arms and hands were full bruises and needle pricks.

 

It took three hours of effort on the on the resuscitation table before the doctors were able to installed a temporary pacemaker to maintain my pulse between 65/110 beats per/minute, instead of the zero to 15 it had been beating/not beating most of the time.

 

I heard them call for atropine and adrenaline, which they injected directly into my heart. When even this did not keep my heart beating as it should, the electric paddles were used to shock my heart and get it beating as it should.

 

On my return to the emergency ward, I noticed both sides of my chest, ribs, or torso were very painful to touch as it hurt to breath for a day or two after the event

 

The doctor said if I had arrived hospital even five minutes later it would have been impossible to revive me. I am 75 years of age now and would not have minded if I had died then, but I suppose there must be some reason for me to carry on with life or activities yet to do because it is true that a whole lot of favorable coincidences came together to make it possible for me to survive, what should have been impossible to survive under any other circumstances.

 

I was told by one of the doctors that I had been “really really dead”. He stressed that if I had arrived at the hospital even five minutes later it would have been impossible to revive me. I am 75 years of age now and would not have minded if I had died then, but I suppose there must be some things left for me to do because a whole lot of favorable coincidences made it possible for me to survive.

 

I really came as close to death that night as possible, without actually dying, and was fortunate enough to be brought back to quality life by a great team of doctors, to live again and be with my family and friends a little longer.

In fact, since the heart pacemaker was fitted I have felt healthier and maybe the heart irregularity was a long-standing problem of which I was unaware.

 

I vaguely remember being on the table with people pricking me with needles all over, my arms and hands.

Because I was continually being revived by the medical team , I floated in and out of consciousness, into the Other-World realms and then back to this one the resuscitation table, this continued until my heart was fully supported by the doctors, who had managed to get my heart to beat with a temporary heart pacemaker.

 

Afterlife

I had no tunnel or meeting of a being of light, which is usual for the near death experience. I went directly into a gloomy large dark cave and saw countless people sitting in the dark gloom.

 

There was some enormous evil entity, so pitch black that it seemed like tar and did not reflect any light

 

Only later when I saw the Golden Light that was Jesus, approached it, it shrank away from him. Was this dark entity Satan the Devil?

If I had any doubts about life after death I have none now, each time my heart stopped my soul or consciousness left my body and went into other dimensions of existence.

 

When I was elsewhere on the other side in some dimension or the other, I saw a huge tree with a large number of books all around its huge trunk.

 

Just by attempting to read what was on the covers of those books, it was somehow brought to my understanding that within them, were all the answers to all my questions I had pondered over most of my life. These books also contained within them all the knowledge, wisdom and mysteries of existence.

 

In my opinion, this great tree was the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil”?

 

Among the many books, was very much larger one, much larger than the other rest which was scattered randomly around the huge trunk of this beautiful tree. I assume the very large book is a consolidated all that was in all the smaller books.

 

When I tried to lift the large book, I found it was much too heavy for me to carry, so I decided to leave it there under the tree and return later for it.

 

Maybe when I finally do die and go to heaven, I will go back to that beautiful tree and retrieve this book which I think might the "The book of Knowledge"

 

During the moments that I flat-lined, I went somewhere outside of this earthly dimension into strange places outside of three-dimensional space and time as we know it is the physical universe.

 

I walked through a doorway of sorts and saw numerous people gathered apparently to welcome me into the afterlife.

 

I did not recognize any of them, maybe because the scenario too fleeting and was over in less than a blink of an eye.

Maybe they were some of my beloved passed over family or friends but I cannot say what I saw was factual or not. However, what the were gathering for seemed to be was some sort of a welcome home party or wedding reception.

 

Although not in this particular event, I thought about my beloved Dog Bully who had died fifty years prior and remembered the many dreams I had when I felt his loving doggy presence.

 

When on the other side of life I also one saw a beautiful pulsating sphere of golden light that I took for the Spiritual Essence of the Lord Jesus, because only he can emanate perfect golden peace and love.

 

I now have a permanent pacemaker in my chest which should last another six years and despite the great shock, I got that night, I am feeling much better and very alive and well.

 

Note; the medical term for what happened to me is Total AV heat block.

 

By Alan McDougall (2016)

Edited May 30, 2016 by Alan McDougall

[DrP]

Glad you survived. There are numerous account like this. The fact your friend called at the right time is a co-incidence. A very good one. Happens all the time and for every time it happens there are many many more where it does not happen and your Christian friend does not phone and wake you. There are plenty of dead people who have Christian friends that did not phone them when they were asleep and having a heart attack... just as there are people that have been woken up by people who are not Christians. It might seem incomprehensible to you, but if you think about it then it is not. It happens all the time.

 

All of the visions of good and evil and rooms of people that you saw are also common delusion experienced by people in similar situations and prove nothing towards being able to prove or disprove a god. Why would you think the ball of light was Jesus? Wouldn't he appear as a person and actually say something useful rather than just hanging in the air throbbing?

 

As I said - I am glad you are now safe. Delusions that occur when unconscious are common and you shouldn't draw conclusions from them.

[Memammal]

@ Alan: Have you ever heard, or read up on Dimethyltryptamine or DMT? Don't quote me on this (as I am not an expert), but apparently (apart from being a powerful psychedelic drug) it is something that naturally exists in mammals (and most other living organisms) that gets excreted somewhere in the brain in very small dosages that would normally cause dreaming. It is claimed that when somebody dies, all of it would be released and that it would cause a dream-like state for up to 15 minutes (in real life) while the brain shuts down...only for the dying person it will feel like eternity. There are speculations that this chemical is so powerful that it can take your subconscious on a trip far, far away, like another dimension... Anyway, near death experiences have been linked to this chemical. That would explain the correlation of these experiences in terms of a template afterlife that is linked to your programmed (brainwashed) interpretation thereof. You made two references to the light of Jesus, for example, but how would you have known that it was Jesus? And why Jesus and not God?

 

We may therefore all end up exactly where we want to be

Edited May 31, 2016 by Memammal

[Raider5678]

@ Alan: Have you ever heard, or read up on Dimethyltryptamine or DMT? Don't quote me on this (as I am not an expert), but apparently (apart from being a powerful psychedelic drug) it is something that naturally exists in mammals (and most other living organisms) that gets excreted somewhere in the brain in very small dosages that would normally cause dreaming. It is claimed that when somebody dies, all of it would be released and that it would cause a dream-like state for up to 15 minutes (in real life) while the brain shuts down...only for the dying person it will feel like eternity. There are speculations that this chemical is so powerful that it can take your subconscious on a trip far, far away, like another dimension... Anyway, near death experiences have been linked to this chemical. That would explain the correlation of these experiences in terms of a template afterlife that is linked to your programmed (brainwashed) interpretation thereof. You made two references to the light of Jesus, for example, but how would you have known that it was Jesus? And why Jesus and not God?

 

We may therefore all end up exactly where we want to be

Which means you wish to end up in......

 

Nice story man. Very cool. I still wonder why people simply refuse to accept that there MAY be a God, and that maybe not EVERY freaking thing that happens is a co-incidence. I mean, come on, it starts to get stupid after a while. "It was a co-incidence that the helicopter lost engine power for a moment, turned 47 degrees, and on a crashed airplane down below a flare randomly went off even though the unconscious pilot never touched it, alerting the pilot that someone was down there, resulting in the rescuing of a survivor." I mean, what else could it be besides co-incidence?

 

Just stop constantly downing someone, and let them believe what they want to believe ok?

[Memammal]

Which means you wish to end up in......

Is this a multiple (more than 2 options) choice..?

 

 

I mean, what else could it be besides co-incidence?

Exactly.

 

 

Just stop constantly downing someone, and let them believe what they want to believe ok?

I was not trying to down someone, just being sceptical. If this really happened then I am relieved (as I am sure he is) that he survived the ordeal. I am perfectly OK with what he wants to believe in; I was just trying to bring some sort of possible explanation to the lounge table. You know perfectly well what sort of strange experiences we go through while being anesthetized.

[StringJunky]

We may therefore all end up exactly where we want to be

Isn't that all that really matters - to us - when the lights go out for the final time?

[Alan McDougall]

@ Alan: Have you ever heard, or read up on Dimethyltryptamine or DMT? Don't quote me on this (as I am not an expert), but apparently (apart from being a powerful psychedelic drug) it is something that naturally exists in mammals (and most other living organisms) that gets excreted somewhere in the brain in very small dosages that would normally cause dreaming. It is claimed that when somebody dies, all of it would be released and that it would cause a dream-like state for up to 15 minutes (in real life) while the brain shuts down...only for the dying person it will feel like eternity. There are speculations that this chemical is so powerful that it can take your subconscious on a trip far, far away, like another dimension... Anyway, near death experiences have been linked to this chemical. That would explain the correlation of these experiences in terms of a template afterlife that is linked to your programmed (brainwashed) interpretation thereof. You made two references to the light of Jesus, for example, but how would you have known that it was Jesus? And why Jesus and not God?

 

We may therefore all end up exactly where we want to be

 

Yes I have it is a horse tranquilizer that drug addicts use to their peril.

 

We are not just a bag of watery protoplasm and my subconscious mind did not create what I experienced?

 

thanks for the smiley

Which means you wish to end up in......

 

Nice story man. Very cool. I still wonder why people simply refuse to accept that there MAY be a God, and that maybe not EVERY freaking thing that happens is a co-incidence. I mean, come on, it starts to get stupid after a while. "It was a co-incidence that the helicopter lost engine power for a moment, turned 47 degrees, and on a crashed airplane down below a flare randomly went off even though the unconscious pilot never touched it, alerting the pilot that someone was down there, resulting in the rescuing of a survivor." I mean, what else could it be besides co-incidence?

 

Just stop constantly downing someone, and let them believe what they want to believe ok?

 

Thank you for not doubting me because my experience was not a delusion or an illusion constructed by my dying brain , but an experience of unimaginably beauty and peace.

 

I no longer fear death!

[Memammal]

@ Alan: With respect, I have quite a few problems believing this and taking you seriously, among others:

 

What you are implying is that Jesus is the one and only, otherwise we have to assume that there are a multitude of gods waiting for their followers in the afterlife. Surely that is inconceivable unless my (unscientific) theory (in some or other way) holds any water.

 

So do Muslims have similar experiences? Yes, apparently they do. Read these: http://muftishamsuddoha.blogspot.co.za/2013/02/muslim-near-death-experiences.html, & https://www.facebook.com/islamandnde. Yet the official Muslim stance on this seems to be the following: (http://en.islamtoday.net/quesshow-92-3612.htm)

As for the experiences that people face when they are physically on the brink of death, but then recover, those experiences were not actually the experience of death itself. Those experiences are physiological experiences that that have under the particular physical conditions they are in, whether they are going to die or recover. If such experiences are shared by many people, then that is because those people share the conditions that bring on those experiences.

What about Judaists? Yes, they too have them: http://www.near-death.com/religion/judaism.html

What about Hindu's? Yes, even Hindu's: http://www.near-death.com/religion/hinduism.html

Even an old Buddhist's NDE: http://www.near-death.com/religion/buddhism/lingza-chokyi.html

 

Furthermore, in my opinion Jesus is one of the most unlikely candidates. Read these posts to find out why: http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/91567-why-free-will-doesnt-spare-gods-omnibenevolence/page-3#entry922770 (also feel free to read the reply from disarray) & http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/95207-religious-scientists/page-2#entry921405. The last post was addressed to same Raider5678 who seems oblivious to the scientific realities and the extreme unlikelihood of the Christian god(s).

[Alan McDougall]

@ Alan: With respect, I have quite a few problems believing this and taking you seriously, among others:

 

What you are implying is that Jesus is the one and only, otherwise we have to assume that there are a multitude of gods waiting for their followers in the afterlife. Surely that is inconceivable unless my (unscientific) theory (in some or other way) holds any water.

 

So do Muslims have similar experiences? Yes, apparently they do. Read these: http://muftishamsuddoha.blogspot.co.za/2013/02/muslim-near-death-experiences.html, & https://www.facebook.com/islamandnde. Yet the official Muslim stance on this seems to be the following: (http://en.islamtoday.net/quesshow-92-3612.htm)

As for the experiences that people face when they are physically on the brink of death, but then recover, those experiences were not actually the experience of death itself. Those experiences are physiological experiences that that have under the particular physical conditions they are in, whether they are going to die or recover. If such experiences are shared by many people, then that is because those people share the conditions that bring on those experiences.

What about Judaists? Yes, they too have them: http://www.near-death.com/religion/judaism.html

What about Hindu's? Yes, even Hindu's: http://www.near-death.com/religion/hinduism.html

Even an old Buddhist's NDE: http://www.near-death.com/religion/buddhism/lingza-chokyi.html

 

Furthermore, in my opinion Jesus is one of the most unlikely candidates. Read these posts to find out why: http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/91567-why-free-will-doesnt-spare-gods-omnibenevolence/page-3#entry922770 (also feel free to read the reply from disarray) & http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/95207-religious-scientists/page-2#entry921405. The last post was addressed to same Raider5678 who seems oblivious to the scientific realities and the extreme unlikelihood of the Christian god(s).

 

"I saw what I saw as a subjective beautiful alternate reality not of this earthly realm Period!

 

I will not waste my time going to all those links of yours, my experiences was sufficient unto itself.

[Memammal]

^ See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil... It's OK man, it's your life, your death and your "choice".

Edited June 2, 2016 by Memammal

[Alan McDougall]

^ See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil... It's OK man, it's your life, your death and your "choice".

 

Exactly!

[Sensei]

There was TV document yesterday about NDE.

Several people were describing what happened after they went sleep in hospital while surgery etc. events.

According to documentary in 10-15% of the cases, there was abandonment of body.

Some more smarter hospital doctors started putting things in invisible places from the ground, on f.e. top of closet.

And asking people who experienced NDE what is there (visible from the top of room if you're flying above everything, but invisible from anywhere from room, even surgeons and nurses could not know what signs/things are there).

So far nobody has given conclusive answer what was placed there..

 

Only later when I saw the Golden Light that was Jesus, approached it, it shrank away from him. Was this dark entity Satan the Devil?

 

Jesus would appear in teared rags rather than gold..

Edited June 2, 2016 by Sensei

[Alan McDougall]

There was TV document yesterday about NDE.

Several people were describing what happened after they went sleep in hospital while surgery etc. events.

According to documentary in 10-15% of the cases, there was abandonment of body.

Some more smarter hospital doctors started putting things in invisible places from the ground, on f.e. top of closet.

And asking people who experienced NDE what is there (visible from the top of room if you're flying above everything, but invisible from anywhere from room, even surgeons and nurses could not know what signs/things are there).

So far nobody has given conclusive answer what was placed there..

 

 

Jesus would appear in teared rags rather than gold..

 

Really Jesus is the incarnate divine son of Almighty God and you wont the 'King of the Universe dressed in rags.

[Sensei]

 

Really Jesus is the incarnate divine son of Almighty God and you wont the 'King of the Universe dressed in rags.

 

Somebody who knows everything does not need frippery/bling-bling..

Don't you think so.. ?

Edited June 3, 2016 by Sensei

[Memammal]

Really Jesus is the incarnate divine son of Almighty God and you wont the 'King of the Universe dressed in rags.

Alan, please slow down. It is one thing to tell a story which is open to interpretation, explanation, or conviction...although I did find the reference to both Satan and Jesus uncomfortably close to a veiled threat along the lines of Pascal's Wager (not sure how many readers on this site will fall for something like that though). But to state the above as if it is fact is perhaps going too far and actually erodes any shred of credibility that your story might had (as Sensei exploited). Rather acknowledge that it is your own belief and please understand that faith, beliefs and superstitions are far removed from facts.

[Alan McDougall]

Alan, please slow down. It is one thing to tell a story which is open to interpretation, explanation, or conviction...although I did find the reference to both Satan and Jesus uncomfortably close to a veiled threat along the lines of Pascal's Wager (not sure how many readers on this site will fall for something like that though). But to state the above as if it is fact is perhaps going too far and actually erodes any shred of credibility that your story might had (as Sensei exploited). Rather acknowledge that it is your own belief and please understand that faith, beliefs and superstitions are far removed from facts.

 

Maybe you do not understand good English I said I saw what I saw as my own "subjective reality", I do not care a bit that you do not believe me.

 

As far as you go, you are so bound in material things, that to you all we are just watery bags of protoplasm and basic elements, waiting for it to decay and the return to dust and total annihilation of your consciousness or self awareness, into the everlasting dark void of nothingness. "Dead again forever"

 

What a waste given the fact that your entire existence on planet earth, is less than the very briefest flashing moment of a Planck time constant like moment, when compared to the unimaginable vastness of time stretching out into everlasting eternity!

 

And yes there is a thread of real credibility, "my honesty", why the heck should Lie about almost dying, it was done to help people that might be facing death or are terrified by it!?

 

One day you are going to face the cold terrifying realization that you are "Actually Dying" like I did and your skepticism will vanish period!

 

Below is are two poems I wrote about death?

 

as I approach the infinite long dark night

I resist and resist it with all my might

I try and try to comprehend this end

to which all men must descend

is it a sleep that all must take?

or is it an eternal end that all must make?

I like to dream of awakening in light not dark

in a beautiful place to which all righteous men depart

do we sleep the sleep of forever?

or do we awake some other place together?

does the answer to this ultimate question

remain forever a process of eternal redemption?

on one glorious day from timeless sleep I awoke

and heard a beautiful and kind voice that sweetly spoke

my faithful son at last you have became to understand

exactly your place in this troubled land

you my beloved have truly never ceased to seek

the infinite destiny that in eternity for you I keep

so for you and your family no eternal death awaits

because of your zeal to know your fate

soon I will bring you all to this most holy place

and there I will you never forsake

very soon, you shall hear a sweet call in the dark of night

come, come into the holy glory of the father spirit of mighty might

I walk in the cool of evening along sweet meadows I have never seen

I smell the beauty of grasses that have never been

strange golden streams of crystal waterfowls

as blue glory of mighty skies above glows

I search the long forgotten memories in the attic of my mind

along the twisted channels the very depth soul that I could not find

I see before me things so wonderful I knew from long ago

I puzzle over the enigma of knowing what I do not know

out there far beyond the knowledge of any man is revealed

something of such great mystery to it my heart had appealed

why have I on this one thing so many years stalled?

is this infinite knowledge from many man would be appalled?

walking on through the shade of great trees that give eternal life

I hear the sweet forgotten voice that comes to free all from everlasting strife

high green new grasses in this new do land grow

as transparent waters chuckle dance, sparkle, and flow

Alan (composed 16/2/2005)

 

 

Emanuel's Light

A poem by Alan McDougall 2001

 

Come fly towards majestic Orion with me

At great speed to our majestic god we flee

Through a wide river at last we fly

Reaching out to a great light beyond the sky

 

Towards the sides of the north nearer and nearer we flew

Arrayed in spotless white robes given to you

Across a vast space of infinite night

Together clothed in glory we continued our flight

 

Oh great heavenly cavern so measureless to man

See before majestic Emmanuel gather all who can

By mighty angels through glorious clouds we are driven

Closer and closer to gods mighty throne in the midst of heaven

 

At last to those mighty gates of heaven we came

Baptized by El Shaddias light all were the same

In joyful luminous glory all creation did sing

By that stupendous realm of the holy king

 

A mighty voice shook all creation and rang through the air

Saying loud gather all around great EL Shaddais colossal chair

Look at god’s right a wonder is seen to rise

“Oh my beloved son at last I can give you your PRIZE”

 

Bathed in beautiful grandeur of the one who had atoned

Countless multitudes stood quiet before Emmanuel enthroned

Joyfully before Emmanuel at last

Faces glowing by lakes colored by golden riven glass

Rejoicing at a life that would now never pass

 

Through a wide river at last we fly

Reaching out to a great light beyond the sky

 

Towards the sides of the north nearer and nearer we flew

Arrayed in spotless white robes given to you

Across a vast space of infinite night

Together clothed in glory we continued our flight

 

Oh great heavenly cavern so measureless to man

See before majestic Emmanuel gather all who can

By mighty angels through glorious clouds we are driven

Closer and closer to gods mighty throne in the midst of heaven

 

At last to those mighty gates of heaven we came

Baptized by EL Shaddias light all were the same

In joyful luminous glory all creation did sing

By that stupendous realm of the holy king

 

A mighty voice shook all creation and rang through the air

Saying loud gather all around great EL Shaddais colossal chair

Look at god’s right a wonder is seen to rise

“Oh my beloved son at last I can give you your prize”

 

Bathed in beautiful grandeur of the one who had atoned

Countless multitudes stood quiet before Emmanuel enthroned

Joyfully before Emmanuel at last

Faces glowing by lakes colored by golden river glass

Rejoicing at a life that will never pass.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Alan McDougall

[Memammal]

 

Alan, my previous post was in reaction to your statement that "Jesus is the incarnate divine son of Almighty God...the 'King of the Universe" (the part that I quoted). That was your statement of faith; far from being factual!

 

Please refrain from imposing this silly fear for death/unknown/hell scenario on me (and other readers). I don't have that kind of insecurities and I am not superstitious. We all die and I am fine with it, it is part of life. Also why do you want to speak on my behalf i.t.o. how I envisage death or our purpose in this reality as temporary embodied biological entities? Fact is we don't know what would happen when we die (apart from what will happen to our bodies). What we do know (among other things) is how and when this universe originated, how and when our solar system originated, we know that we are evolved animals and as such we can not possess any extraordinary or unnatural abilities such as having a "soul" that can be separated from the body and/or the ability to "sin" if animals don't have a similar capacity. We also have a pretty good idea about the origin of superstitions and religions and (some of us) acknowledge that they were man-made and passed down as part of our cultural heritage(s). Yes, we have advanced brains with the capacity to untangle and to interact with nature in a pretty neat way and our so-called "purpose" may reside therein, i.e. something along the line of observer and processor of data into eternal information, but that in itself is speculative and most importantly evolution-driven.

 

I suggest that you stick to your poetry, Alan.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Memammal

[Prometheus]

As far as you go, you are so bound in material things, that to you all we are just watery bags of protoplasm and basic elements, waiting for it to decay and the return to dust and total annihilation of your consciousness or self awareness, into the everlasting dark void of nothingness. "Dead again forever"

 

What a waste given the fact that your entire existence on planet earth, is less than the very briefest flashing moment of a Planck time constant like moment, when compared to the unimaginable vastness of time stretching out into everlasting eternity!

 

This is a common reason for people believing in god(s) or the afterlife, but it really is just a matter of how you perceive your existence.

 

I find it amazing that our conciousness emerges from entirely material antecedents - that watery bags of protoplasm can come to ponder the fact of their existence - and that we are not something separate from the universe but we are it. For some people who experience the world not as a separate being from it, but as part of it - not separated from the universe by our skin, but continuous with the universe through our skin - then death is perceived very differently. It is just the return of the wave to the ocean, a swirl of dust reforming into some other pattern, decaying on the one hand and nourishing on the other as our molecules return to the cycle of life.

 

Of course it is up to you how you interpret your existence, but i hope you realise there are alternatives to the prevalent Abrahamic view.

 

 

 

One day you are going to face the cold terrifying realization that you are "Actually Dying" like I did and your skepticism will vanish period!

 

There are as many experiences of death as there are people. For some it may be a 'cold terrifying realization' while for others it will be a blessed release with every nuance in between (often by the same person at the same time). I'm sure you'll agree it would be just as wrong to force a reinterpretation of someone's experience of death as a 'cold terrifying realization' as it would be for someone to reinterpret your own near death experience.

 

Edited June 3, 2016 by Prometheus

[Strange]

What a waste given the fact that your entire existence on planet earth, is less than the very briefest flashing moment of a Planck time constant like moment, when compared to the unimaginable vastness of time stretching out into everlasting eternity!

 

Which is the bigger waste: accepting the universe as it is and getting on with life, or fooling yourself with dreams of a better time ahead?

 

One day you are going to face the cold terrifying realization that you are "Actually Dying" like I did and your skepticism will vanish period!

 

Plenty of people have faced death (including near death experiences like yours) and remained not just sceptical but solidly atheist.

 

There is a saying "there are no atheists in foxholes" but it is a lie. Many people have experienced the horrors of war and decided that there can be no god. (Or certainly no sane or merciful god.)

Edited June 3, 2016 by Strange

[Alan McDougall]

 

Which is the bigger waste: accepting the universe as it is and getting on with life, or fooling yourself with dreams of a better time ahead?

 

Plenty of people have faced eath (including near death experiences like yours) and remained not just sceptical but solidly atheist.

 

There is a saying "there are no atheists in foxholes" but it is a lie. Many people have experienced the horrors of war and decided that there can be no god. (Or certainly no sane or merciful god.)

 

Who exactly are these people that have faced death in fact I doubt you, know even one a a close friend ?

 

God does not need you to believe that he exists, however, he believes in you regardless.

 

God is infinite in all his attrubutes.

 

So you were there with them in the trenches. Exactly who are these many people?. In fact I doubt the veracity of someone putting on the hat of an expert on the subject and knowledge the NDE phenomenon.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Alan McDougall

[Memammal]

@ Alan, you are making unsubstantiated claims again and even highlighting some of them. Please stop doing that, preach your beliefs somewhere else.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Memammal

[andrewcellini]

 

Who exactly are these people that have faced death in fact I doubt you, know even one a a close friend ?

If Strange were to offer up a personal anecdote it would contribute about as much to the conversation as yours, and I'm sure he's not referencing one.

 

So you were there with them in the trenches. Exactly who are these many people?.

 

You can find near-death experiences consistent with all sorts of beliefs, and I don't know what use it would be know "exactly who" these people are.

In fact I doubt the veracity of someone putting on the hat of an expert on the subject and knowledge the NDE phenomenon.

Do you also doubt that Hindus tell stories similar to yours but with different interpretations - those consistent with their religion - of the figures they perceive?

Edited June 4, 2016 by andrewcellini

[Velocity_Boy]

How do you know the Golden Light was Jesus?

 

And why do you now have no doubt about the Afterlife? Since you really did not spend any time there, nor experience anything that could not be construed as being in a dream state. Sure, your heart and breathing had ceased (so you say) but all it takes to experience a dream is a few neurotransmitters firing back and forth in the brain. Just some chemicals being excited by the millivolts of electrical current that is in our brains and nervous systems. Which still, btw, trickles for up to several hours after clinical death. Hell, we say this in H.S. Biology with the frog dissections, right?

 

I mean, sorry, sir, all due respect. Your story was mildly interesting. And I am sure you believe in God and a Risen Jesus and the Afterlife. But as an atheist and a scientist I do not, and personally I consider your story no more proof of the Afterlife or of God than a crazy dream I had last night after eating too much ice cream before bedtime. And while you claim you have "no doubts" and believe you saw The Tree of Knowledge and Jesus, please know that this is all purely anecdotal. What would be far more impressive is if you had come away from the dream with some knowledge you did not have before. Like a fact from one of those books you said you saw by the Tree. Which, btw, if they were from the Tree of Knowledge in Genesis, would have been written in Hebrew, correct? Since that is the lingua franca of the original Torah.

 

Thanks for sharing!

 

VB

Which means you wish to end up in......

 

Nice story man. Very cool. I still wonder why people simply refuse to accept that there MAY be a God, and that maybe not EVERY freaking thing that happens is a co-incidence. I mean, come on, it starts to get stupid after a while. "It was a co-incidence that the helicopter lost engine power for a moment, turned 47 degrees, and on a crashed airplane down below a flare randomly went off even though the unconscious pilot never touched it, alerting the pilot that someone was down there, resulting in the rescuing of a survivor." I mean, what else could it be besides co-incidence?

 

Just stop constantly downing someone, and let them believe what they want to believe ok?

 

 

Nobody is downing anybody, bro. Nor do us atheists "refuse to accept there may be a God."

 

sure, maybe there is. But this gentleman's NDE story did not come remotely close to proving there is a god. Nor to proving there is an After life. The DMT info is accurate and offers a very plausible explanation. Most men of science would indeed say it is orders-of-magnitude more plausible than Bronze Age Hebrew Mythos.

 

Oh...and last time I checked? We WERE on a Science Forum here.

 

Listen, extraordinary claims--such as those or an all-powerful and omniscient and loving sky god--demand extraordinary proof. And all we ask is, not even that, but SOME modicum of proof. Yet, this far, in all these centuries, we see none.

 

Zilch.

 

Thanks...hope this helps clear you up a bit on the Atheist Stance on this issue.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Velocity_Boy

[Strange]

God does not need you to believe that he exists, however, he believes in you regardless.

 

 

Which one? Thor? Vishnu? Zeus?

 

 

Who exactly are these people that have faced death in fact I doubt you, know even one a a close friend ?

So you were there with them in the trenches.

 

Don't be an idiot. It doesn't suit you.

[dimreepr]

 

Who exactly are these people that have faced death in fact I doubt you, know even one a a close friend ?

 

God does not need you to believe that he exists, however, he believes in you regardless.

 

God is infinite in all his attrubutes.

 

So you were there with them in the trenches. Exactly who are these many people?. In fact I doubt the veracity of someone putting on the hat of an expert on the subject and knowledge the NDE phenomenon.

 

 

Does it matter?

 

Death is something we will all face, whatever we believe; proximity doesn’t lead to understanding any more than age leads to wisdom.