Gobekli Tepe - why was it built and then buried?

[Robittybob1]

I'm thinking it was a breakthrough for human civilization to work from the constellations for that was more accurate timekeeper than the number of days in a year or the number of lunar months in a year for both of them had fractional quantities to content with.

365.25 days in a year . Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year

 

For the Gregorian calendar the average length of the calendar year (the mean year) across the complete leap cycle of 400 years is 365.2425 days.

And the Moon year is even more complicated e.g Lunar year

 

The lunar year comprises twelve full cycles of the phases of the Moon, as seen from Earth. It has a duration of approximately 354.37 days. Muslims use this for celebrating their Eids and for marking the start of the fasting month of Ramadan. A Muslim calendar year is based on the lunar cycle.

So they would be 11 plus days out every year if they based it on the Moon.

But when they used the star zodiacal constellations those fractions disappear don't they?

Edited June 15, 2016 by Robittybob1

[michel123456]

@michel123456 - a long post but what did you really say?

I thought it was already known that civilization had a patchy start. What do you mean by "linear evolution" as it relates to Gobekli Tepe?

I suggest that the progression of humanity from the stone age to agriculture, sedentarization, civilization until modern times is not something that looks like a smooth curve but looks like a stock exchange graph. With up and downs. With humanity going forth and back, up and down.

[Robittybob1]

I suggest that the progression of humanity from the stone age to agriculture, sedentarization, civilization until modern times is not something that looks like a smooth curve but looks like a stock exchange graph. With up and downs. With humanity going forth and back, up and down.

How did you work that out?

[michel123456]

How did you work that out?

We see this in history.

Antiquity was more advanced than the next 1500 years. Then Renaissance came, antiquity rediscovered and civilization back on the road. I suggest that these kind of effects have also taken place in prehistory throughout humanity.

Think of today's Talibans destroying ancient monuments they are incapable of creating. Think of iconoclasts, think even about early christians destroying antique sculptures. It has happen numerous times in recorded historical times. Why not earlier in unrecorded times?

Edited June 16, 2016 by michel123456

[Robittybob1]

We see this in history.

Antiquity was more advanced than the next 1500 years. Then Renaissance came, antiquity rediscovered and civilization back on the road. I suggest that these kind of effects have also taken place in prehistory throughout humanity.

Think of today's Talibans destroying ancient monuments they are incapable of creating. Think of iconoclasts, think even about early christians destroying antique sculptures. It has happen numerous times in recorded historical times. Why not earlier in unrecorded times?

Fair enough. Wars, floods, fire, earthquakes, plagues and internal strife all could contribute to this turmoil.

[tar]

And back then we still had not completely sorted out the Neanderthal thing. Cleansing could have been a condition.

Just thought that perhaps these are not "our" sites at all but Neanderthal sites, that we buried when we eliminated them. I read that Neanderthals had larger brains than us. Maybe we were their slaves and built the place with our labor under their direction, and then at some point revolted, killed them, and buried their monuments, that we did not understand, anyway,

Maybe got rid of the evidence of their civilization, tools, language, art and technology as well.

 

Wiki's article on Neanderthal says their cranial capacity was 1600 cubic centimeters compared to the average modern human range of 1250-1400.

Edited June 16, 2016 by tar

[michel123456]

And back then we still had not completely sorted out the Neanderthal thing. Cleansing could have been a condition.

Just thought that perhaps these are not "our" sites at all but Neanderthal sites, that we buried when we eliminated them. I read that Neanderthals had larger brains than us. Maybe we were their slaves and built the place with our labor under their direction, and then at some point revolted, killed them, and buried their monuments, that we did not understand, anyway,

Maybe got rid of the evidence of their civilization, tools, language, art and technology as well.

 

Wiki's article on Neanderthal says their cranial capacity was 1600 cubic centimeters compared to the average modern human range of 1250-1400.

The dating does not correspond.

From Wiki, the Neanderthals were extincted long before any sign of early civilization.

Neanderthals or Neandertals UK /niˈændərˌtɑːl/, us also /neɪ/-, -/ˈɑːndər/-, -/ˌtɔːl/, -/ˌθɔːl/)^[3][4] (named for the Neandertal in Germany) were a species or subspecies of human in the genus Homo which became extinct between 40,000 and 28,000 years ago

 

[tar]

michel123456,

 

You are right the site is dated like 10 to 14 thousand years ago if I remember right so we are missing like 14 thousand years, but the whole body of work of when civilizations did this or that and what capabilities various bands of folk had at various times is not without bias toward us as "the peak" of evolution, and some work was done by people with Adam and Eve in mind. And some work was done with Lucy in mind. Not much work was done with the thought that we were playing second fiddle to a smarter crew. And up until Gobekli Tepe we thought civilization just went back 4 or 5 thousand years. So I am allowing for a fudge factor of thousands of years where some Neanderthals could have been around where we thought they had gone extinct and where a handful that would not leave a large fossil record, could have ruled for thousands of years, the precursors of modern humans, that left the fossil records. Add to that, the thought that under the hypothesis there may have been a conscious effort to erase Neanderthal remains from the scene, the fossil record could be misread, in terms of the timing of Neanderthal extinction.

 

I recall that from time to time we find individuals of a previously thought extinct species roaming, or swimming or flying about.

 

Regards, TAR

I just had read as well something about a stone cutting culture that went back many 10s of thousands of years. I don't recall the name or place or timing, but most times we try to figure these things we try to fit the development into our cultural history. We can think a little differently if we consider the possibility that a civilization or many that existed on this planet was not an early example of our civilization, but later examples of somebody else's that were terminated. along with the people involved.

 

That is, we think of Neanderthals as apes that we are better than. What if they were our masters. The fossil records could be read with a different idea in mind and perhaps the timing would work out.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited June 16, 2016 by tar

[michel123456]

There are indeed scientists that suspect that in reality Neanderthals never properly "go extinct" but rather merged with modern humans. And I have encountered people who look very much with this sympathetic fellow.

Edited June 16, 2016 by michel123456

[tar]

plus we don't know how Neanderthals said goodbye to their dead

cremation, like on a Viking funeral pyre, could turn recognizable skulls to fragments of bone and ashes

or they could have been crushed to powder and slurry and consumed for all we know, or fed to the fishes or bears or tossed into the sea

 

or we might find the whole population of Neanderthals that lived in the Tigris/Euphrates area all neatly lined up and mummified in secret hidden sealed off limestone caverns, yet to be discovered

Edited June 16, 2016 by tar

[Robittybob1]

Something is surely going to surface to solve the mystery one day.

[tar]

and there is that headless figure with the penis, and some burial sites found with no heads, and some burials were dug up and the heads kept around the house in some sort of ancestor worship type of way, so I am not sure the fossil record is going to be pristine

[arc]

Something is surely going to surface to solve the mystery one day.

 

Carved images similar to one at Gobekli Tepe are also found in the city of Çatalhöyük in western Turkey.

 

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/archaeologists-find-12000-year-old-pictograph-gobeklitepe-003441?nopaging=1

 

"Excavations being conducted at the ancient city of Göbeklitepe in Turkey have uncovered an ancient pictograph on an obelisk which researchers say could be the earliest known pictograph ever discovered."

 

The ‘Vulture-Stone’. Credit: Alistair Coombs

 

“The scene on the obelisk unearthed in Göbeklitepe could be construed as the first pictograph because it depicts an event thematically” explained Director of the Şanlıurfa Museum, Müslüm Ercan, to the Hurriyet Daily News . Ercan is leading the excavation at Göbeklitepe. It depicts a human head in the wing of a vulture and a headless human body under the stela. There are various figures like cranes and scorpions around this figure. This is the portrayal of a moment; it could be the first example of pictograph. They are not random figures. We see this type of thing portrayal on the walls in 6,000-5,000 B.C. in Çatalhöyük [in modern-day western Turkey].”

 

"The artifacts discovered in the ancient city have provided information about ancient burial traditions in the area in which bodies were left in the open for raptors such as vultures to consume. According to Mr Ercan, this enabled the soul of the deceased to be carried into the sky. It was called “burial in the sky” and was depicted on the obelisks in Göbeklitepe. Such rituals were conducted in and around the city around 12,000 years ago."

 

It appears Gobekli Tepe could be a site for funerary ceremonies where the dead were eaten by scavengers. Maybe the dangerous animals depicted on the columns are just examples on how the subjects may have died. Top ten "reasons why you're probably here" list for the dearly departed.

[tar]

robittybob1,

 

I need to correct my coordinates. It seems the area I was looking at on google earth was about 3 miles West of the actual site.

 

The proper coordinates of pot belly hill are 37.223 237N 38.922546E

 

Also there seems to be plenty of study lining the stones up with the solstices and Deneb and Sirius and such that would indicate it was more likely purposed for the match to the stars, more than for killing trapped animals. I have not given up the thought, as it is certainly possible the site could have utilitarian and symbolic purposes, like one could carve a symbol or a constellation on the handle of a knife.

 

Not impossible, if a hunting tool, that the best time for the hunt was a particular time of the year that could be determined from the position of the stars....for instance.

 

But there does seem to be symbols related to removed heads and death and such, where it is also possible that the site was used to present the dead to the universe for reabsorbtion, so to speak.

 

Regards, TAR

[Robittybob1]

robittybob1,

 

 

 

.... like one could carve a symbol or a constellation on the handle of a knife.

 

Not impossible, if a hunting tool, that the best time for the hunt was a particular time of the year that could be determined from the position of the stars....for instance.

....

Regards, TAR

Were there such things as knives, as in metal knives? Humans had stone knives but inscribing them?? I've never heard of that before. When Gobekli Tepe was built it could be getting around to the time in history that metal might have been used for knives.

 

But there does seem to be symbols related to removed heads and death and such, where it is also possible that the site was used to present the dead to the universe for reabsorption, so to speak.

I think you are on to it there. Burial of the dead rituals seems to precede major technological advances.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Robittybob1

[tar]

the inscribed knife was an analogy meant to show an item could have an artistic value, a symbolic value and a utilitarian value at the same time, indicating that we don't have to assume the site only had one purpose. Like modern day arenas for instance they might host a car show one night and a hockey game the next. For instance teenagers might use it at night to make out and watch the stars.

Edited June 17, 2016 by tar

[Robittybob1]

the inscribed knife was an analogy meant to show an item could have an artistic value, a symbolic value and a utilitarian value at the same time, indicating that we don't have to assume the site only had one purpose. Like modern day arenas for instance they might host a car show one night and a hockey game the next. For instance teenagers might use it at night to make out and watch the stars.

I like the thought of Gobekli Tepe being used by " ... at night to make out and watch the stars".

Edited June 17, 2016 by Robittybob1

[tar]

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/06/the-mystery-of-gobekli-tepe/

 

suggests that 100,000 bits of animal bones were found at the site, and the herds of wild sheep, wild boar and deer were wandering around the area

 

add to that the fact that the first domesticated sheep and domesticated pigs were traced to within miles of the place, my hypothesis aboaut the site having a utilitarian purpose related to the capture and/or killing of game animals is not far fetched at all.\

[Robittybob1]

http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/06/the-mystery-of-gobekli-tepe/

 

suggests that 100,000 bits of animal bones were found at the site, and the herds of wild sheep, wild boar and deer were wandering around the area

 

add to that the fact that the first domesticated sheep and domesticated pigs were traced to within miles of the place, my hypothesis aboaut the site having a utilitarian purpose related to the capture and/or killing of game animals is not far fetched at all.\

I read/heard somewhere else that these bones were mainly from the best parts of the animal. In other words I believe the slaughter dressing cooking occurred somewhere else and just the best bits were brought to the workforce at Gobekli Tepe.

[tar]

oh, so the bones where just the remainders from the worker's lunch?

 

So that does not help my hypothesis.

 

However, there remains the question of why would they build the place. Is it a home? It does not appear so. Could it be a temple? Yes, but the question remains as to why people would gather together in the first plalce. This motivation, this gathering prior agriculture and domestication of animals seems to need a reason. Protection from something, or for the attainment of food, or, something having to do with a common need. Perhaps other humans at the time felt a connection to both the stars and each other, and worked together to share the connection and help the passage of the consciousness into the heavens after death...not unlike the human to wish for continued belonging. But it seems there still needs to be a driver to bring families and tribes together. A technology, where alone it could not be built, but together the power of man could overcome the other creatures. Ambush was a good plan in the woods, but not so helpful on the plains. The deer could outrun the hunter, you had to surround and fight, and there was risk of hoof or tooth or tusk when encountering wild boar. A plan to drive and corner was in order. Enclosures of brush and sticks could be broken out of, and you still had to be there on the ground to kill the prey. But build the enclosure from stone, and built solid platforms from rock and you have a place where human is superior. Takes some time and effort to build, but the payoff is a successful drive and slaughter, and large groups could eat from the capture of a herd.

 

I do not know the salting and retention of meat for time technology, but the bones and skins and stuff could be used regardless and tribes could disperse and live separately for a while and return for the next hunt. And it is not impossible, with the knock out with rocks from above technique that the prey could be bound and taken alive, for consumption later. Leading to the domestication of sheep and pigs documented in the area.

 

Regards, TAR

And I just thought, that once built, as a communal tool, the different tribes could still operate separately, using the place when they ran out of supplies, driving some individual animals up the valley into the trap where a couple throwers were stationed with their rocks, kill the prey safely, and carry it off back to their families. Then the place was still available for use for the next group. Like a deer blind, or a tennis court.

Edited June 18, 2016 by tar

[Robittybob1]

When I read your post I thought you might have clicked on to something that leads from hunting to domestication and that was keeping the herd of wild animals as a herd and following that herd. But the important thing is to keep the herd grouped at all times, which would always be selecting for the tamest of the group (leading to domestication).

This same practice is still being practiced up near the Arctic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reindeer#Reindeer_and_humans

 

So the herded animals would benefit for the hunters would keep the wild animals of prey away from the herd so the young would survive. So that would mean the tamest of the wolves (leading to the domestic dog) would also benefit from a symbiotic relation with the hunters for they were useful in keeping other predators at bay and also for herding the semi-domesticated animals.

Just thoughts but seems a possible . How that would tie in with Gobekli Tepe? But the need for a precise determination of the calendar may have been essential to have resources put into this science project.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Robittybob1

[tar]

Robittybob1,

 

well we might still go with the double purpose thing or an evolving purpose thing.

 

Certain of the rings had taller center stones and later ones shorter. Perhaps the taller ones were to keep the stone throwers out of reach of leaping stag horns and later the deer were used up and there was more sheep and boar that didn't jump as high.

 

And I have not studied the difference in the symbols and reliefs between the first and the second...and the last, but it is possible that the idea was improved on, and upgrades were installed and the older one buried, as to not have the animals run into an unmanned trap. The ones with the fancy symbols may have been later on, generations later, as fancy stuff was added, like the cat predator looking down on the prey. And since they had this nice communal tool, it could have certainly doubled as a burial rite location, and tripled as a calendar.

 

Regards, TAR

[Robittybob1]

Robittybob1,

 

well we might still go with the double purpose thing or an evolving purpose thing.

 

Certain of the rings had taller center stones and later ones shorter. Perhaps the taller ones were to keep the stone throwers out of reach of leaping stag horns and later the deer were used up and there was more sheep and boar that didn't jump as high.

 

And I have not studied the difference in the symbols and reliefs between the first and the second...and the last, but it is possible that the idea was improved on, and upgrades were installed and the older one buried, as to not have the animals run into an unmanned trap. The ones with the fancy symbols may have been later on, generations later, as fancy stuff was added, like the cat predator looking down on the prey. And since they had this nice communal tool, it could have certainly doubled as a burial rite location, and tripled as a calendar.

 

Regards, TAR

Have you ever seen animals hunted in the manner you describe? Sounds barbaric even for 11,600 years ago.

[tar]

My wife, just today(yesterday) visited Decoy Pond in England where an arm of the pond was designed narrowing down to a point and covered in chicken wire to where the ducks could be driven (by specially trained dogs) into the trap and taken(harvested).

 

Look on Google Earth just north of Boarstall England at 51degrees 49 minutes 48.61 seconds N 1degree 5 minutes 40.67 seconds W

Edited June 19, 2016 by tar

[tar]

I am now thinking of the place as a destination. Like people now a days would go to the mall. People might gather for exchange of goods, technology, fellowship, communing with the stars, burying the dead, visiting the pyramids so-to-speak, or going to the county fair, but the center point, the purpose of the place, the draw was food clothing and shelter. I read that some early man would build homes from mammoth bones and skulls. And people would eat animals, and people would make furs and shoes and tools from the sinews and bones and hide and coat of animals. The first level of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs is the fulfillment of physiological needs like breathing and food and water shelter and clothing and sleep. Only after meeting these does one look toward safety and security, and after that, love and belonging.

 

The scientific community is focused on the place as a temple. Perhaps going right to the third level of love and belonging, belonging to the universe. And this might be right. Except in my thinking we are talking about folk still looking to satisfy the first level. If the place was constructed before farming, before cities and it was not for habitation, then its purpose would be more likely aligned to getting the basic needs of humans fulfilled. Not yet was man in a position to worry about the higher levels of self esteem and self actualization...although the reliefs would suggest that those levels were a component of the effort...but to go immediately to the top, with none of the lower needs fulfilled makes only a small amount of sense. You need a payoff on all levels. As a site, built to exhibit mastery over the herds, between the rivers, it makes complete sense...to me.

 

Thread,

 

Thinking about the pond and water and the water proof floor made me wonder if clay could have been plastered to the inside walls making sort of a cistern or man made water hole, that would catch rain water both for human consumption, and to attract animals. The animals visiting the water hole would be lost in the maze and could not escape easily once the hunters came up. Especially if they came from the side with the entrance/exit.

 

With the right ropes and ladders or logs to get up to the tops of the Ts, even a single hunter could close the entrance door and hunt the cornered animal.

 

Makes me think also of the bull ring and the matador. That sport may have come from a long ago hunting technique, such as what I am proposing might have been the purpose of Gobekli Tepe.

 

Regards, TAR

 

Thread,

 

Additional thoughts.

 

why the first temple? Why not the first court? The accused and accuser each on a central T and the jury around.

Or a grudge match location, pitting the champion of each of two rival tribes against each other surrounded by their supporters, ending the war with one death rather than the slaughter of the whole tribe.

Or a sporting site, like our stadiums where two regions could compete for victory, without death...'

 

Or perhaps the first governmental meeting place where the leaders of the various tribes would circle around the king and queen, or what ever.

 

Regards, TAR

 

Or maybe a place to punish those who broke the laws of the group. Like a gallows or a whipping post. Perhaps the first example of "running the gauntlet" as an place where one was initiated into manhood. Or a place where your head was cut off, for what ever reason.

Edited June 20, 2016 by tar