Gobekli Tepe - why was it built and then buried?

[Robittybob1]

....

 

Thinking about the pond and water and the water proof floor made me wonder if clay could have been plastered to the inside walls making sort of a cistern or man made water hole, that would catch rain water both for human consumption, and to attract animals. The animals visiting the water hole would be lost in the maze and could not escape easily once the hunters came up. Especially if they came from the side with the entrance/exit.

 

 

Could the ponding effect be used as a reference to determine horizontal and that would be necessary to start measuring angles?

[i take your word for it that the base was waterproof?]

[tar]

Robbitybob1,

 

I don't have a reference, I just remember one account describing the floor area as waterproof.

 

Regards, TAR

 

The level thing is interesting though. And I just was thinking that the water would make a reflecting surface and I was just imagining what that would look like. It almost reminds me of those H symbols on the relief carvings.

[Robittybob1]

Robbitybob1,

 

I don't have a reference, I just remember one account describing the floor area as waterproof.

 

Regards, TAR

 

The level thing is interesting though. And I just was thinking that the water would make a reflecting surface and I was just imagining what that would look like. It almost reminds me of those H symbols on the relief carvings.

The concept of the "right angle" and the related concepts of horizontal and vertical. Now that would have been a major invention in human development.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Robittybob1

[tar]

Robittybob1,o

 

Here are two pictures, thanks to Google Earth of the site, from about 150 miles and about 8 miles.

Notice the large flat plain to the south. Notice the large flat plain to the north,

Notice the ridge, about 3 miles long running from 4 o'clock to 10 o'clock with about 10 or 12 blind alley type valleys on the south side and six or 8 on the north side, with Golbekli Tepe right in the middle of the ridge.

 

Here is the hypothesis. After the last ice age, the plaiins were grasslands supporting populations of wild sheep, wild boar, deer and foxes and lions and such. For thousands of years, men would chase the prey across the plains and finally corner them in one of these valleys. It happened so much and so many tribes found success in this manner, that over the years they would build blinds and move boulders into the heads of the valley, to hide behind, and stand on and such to make it easier to accomplish a successful hunt. As time went on they had the bright idea of building a man made blind alley, with all the appropriate hiding places, and things to stand on. New generations would bury the old and build new sites. The area was so convenient for successful hunting, with all the blind alleys and the central killing zone, that people hung around, and down away from the killing zones, lived in villages, began domesticating wheat, caught some of the sheep and wild boar and foxes and wolves and domesticated them as well. Maybe used horses or dogs to herd the animals toward the trapping ridge. The stones got fancier and tied us to the stars, as well.

 

Notice the reliefs on two of the stands, with the lion at the top (us the hunter) and the wild boar at the bottom (the prey.)

 

 

Regards, TAR

rotate the images 90 CW

Edited June 29, 2016 by tar

[Robittybob1]

Thanks Tar

I have finally downloaded Google Earth so I'll check out what you've noticed.

[michel123456]

Thanks Tar

I have finally downloaded Google Earth so I'll check out what you've noticed.

Now you are a complete Human Being.

gobekli1501.jpgRobittybob1,o

 

Here are two pictures, thanks to Google Earth of the site, from about 150 miles and about 8 miles.

Notice the large flat plain to the south. Notice the large flat plain to the north,

Notice the ridge, about 3 miles long running from 4 o'clock to 10 o'clock with about 10 or 12 blind alley type valleys on the south side and six or 8 on the north side, with Golbekli Tepe right in the middle of the ridge.

 

Here is the hypothesis. After the last ice age, the plaiins were grasslands supporting populations of wild sheep, wild boar, deer and foxes and lions and such. For thousands of years, men would chase the prey across the plains and finally corner them in one of these valleys. It happened so much and so many tribes found success in this manner, that over the years they would build blinds and move boulders into the heads of the valley, to hide behind, and stand on and such to make it easier to accomplish a successful hunt. As time went on they had the bright idea of building a man made blind alley, with all the appropriate hiding places, and things to stand on. New generations would bury the old and build new sites. The area was so convenient for successful hunting, with all the blind alleys and the central killing zone, that people hung around, and down away from the killing zones, lived in villages, began domesticating wheat, caught some of the sheep and wild boar and foxes and wolves and domesticated them as well. Maybe used horses or dogs to herd the animals toward the trapping ridge. The stones got fancier and tied us to the stars, as well.

 

Notice the reliefs on two of the stands, with the lion at the top (us the hunter) and the wild boar at the bottom (the prey.)

 

gobekli81.jpg

 

Regards, TAR

rotate the images 90 CW

You could do the same job in an easiest way downloading a free printscreen program. I use Gadwin printscreen.

[tar]

michel123456,

 

Thank you. I guess if I had Gadwin printscreen I would be a more complete person myself.

 

However, I was just wondering if there is a difference, copyrightwise, between recording the actual data google is sending you, and taking a picture of your computer screen?

 

regards, TAR

[michel123456]

Robbitybob1,

 

The site I was looking at was at 37degrees13 minutes 03.80minutes North 38degrees 51minutes 13.53seconds East.

37.223056, 38.9225 on my Google Earth

 

This is the site (North above)

 

[tar]

Thread,

 

Additional thoughts.

 

This site on Malta is facing a valley (also a large sort of pyramidlike plateau) where animals could have been driven in.

 

 

 

And the idea of a labyrinth, with a mythical beast to slay might be related. Opening up the possibility as well, that several of the rings may have been in service at once, to confuse and trap the herd.

 

 

And these two pictures from the Camonica valley in Nothern Italy taken by Luca Giarelli. Also a spot surrounded by mountain "walls", have some things that remind me of the Gobekli Tepe site. The T shapes, maybe like a double headed axe, or somehow representing the same theme as is represented at Golbekli Tepe and the spiral.

 

And this rock, that reminds me of the valleys that led up to the Gobeki Tepe plateau.

 

Regards, TAR

 

.

Edited July 2, 2016 by tar

[michel123456]

Usually, throughout all cultures, building with stone is a procedure that has some characteristics.

Stone is not the easiest material for construction. One can use wood, mud,bricks that are used for habitations.

You build with stone fortresses, temples, monuments that must last for a long time.

Usually, stone is not used for momentary structures. But stone can be used as basis for wooden structures (like stones with holes).

If you see holes in flat stones it is probably for wooden pillars. If you see holes in stone walls, it is probably for horizontal beams.

Many constructions are mixed: stone for the vertical elements & wood for the horizontal (the beams over the doors & the roof).

In Mayan architecture, the reason of the collapse of many building is the use of wooden beams that could not last long enough.

In Egyptian & Greek architecture, the beams were made of stone, that is why the columns are so close to each other. The roof was still made of wood but there are monumental exceptions (the pyramids).

Now, in Gobekli Tepe the T shape of the columns indicates that it may have been a solution to the problem of the distance beween the pillars. IOW the beams were probably made up of stone and if not, they were made up out of wood but had to support a very heavy load.

It suggests that

1. the space between the pillars had an important use. It was not an empty temple or a solid monument like a pyramid, it must have a place for gathering people like a church, a palace or many other uses, think of a parliament (βουλή), a gaming room, etc. Gathering animals as you suggests I find that very hard to believe.

2. it may be that the "heavy load" I mentioned above was something more than the load of the roof itself. IOW it may be that the "heavy load" was earth right from the beginning but that is a far fetched from-my-sitting-room-hypothesis.

Edited July 3, 2016 by michel123456

[tar]

Michel123456,

 

Early on when I heard about Golbekli Tepe, they indicated that there was no evidence that the structure was roofed, or that it was for habitation.

 

Judging by the amount of megalithic stone structures there are, like stonehedge and the megalithic structures in the caucusus and all the tripod like structures with large flat stones forming the roof (or platform) the people around 5000 to 10000 years ago knew some techniques to get these stones into the desired position. Evidently it was worth the effort, to construct these things, to stand up to wind and weather, animal attack and human mischief.

 

I am thinking that with the right levers and log rollers, large diameter logs in the back and small in the front, a flat stone would want to move in the direction of the small logs. Then one, with the right technique could lift the stone, with counter balances, like baskets one could put rock and dirt and sand into, and reposition the rollers for the next move. But regardless, of me figuring out the technique used, it is obvious that someone knew some tricks, to move these things into position, without huge armies. My wife and I lifted a stone about 24 inches in diameter out of the ground with a shovel and a long strong digging bar. I would put a small rock in position for a fulcrum and lift one end of the stone, and she would shovel dirt into the gap, Then the same on the other end, Until the stone, which had been completely buried, was sitting on the surface of the ground.

 

Besides, we are talking 10,000 years ago, before Buddah and Moses and Jesus and the internet and printing and bronze and iron work, combustion engine and all. Things then were probably about food and resources and sex. So what purpose would a temple serve? On the other hand, a tool for achieving successful hunts that all could use, every season, for hundreds of years....that is something worth moving some rocks into position to have.

 

Regards, TAR

Think about how central to life, the capture or killing of a deer would be. Food, clothing, skins and bladders for vessels, sinews for bowstrings, blood to drink, antlers, bone and teeth to use as tool and weapon.

 

Think on the other hand how useless a temple would be.

In Germany at a wild park I was on the other side of a fence from some wild boar. They are scary with speed and strength and tusk. If I was hunting some, I would appreciate being up on a high stone, they could not move, throwing my stones down upon them, or club, or arrow or spear, or sling or whatever. It would give me an advantage, I would not have facing them on the ground.

Edited July 3, 2016 by tar

[Endy0816]

Some sections look like they could have served as corrals. Central area was all circular hallways and restricted entry though.

 

Sounds like it was filled in with refuse. Not sure desecration, some obscure religious reason or locals using it for dumping. Was active for a good long while though.

[tar]

Endy0816,

 

I am thinking that as the millennia passed, the central use of the site, for hunting, let's say, diminished, as more and more animals were captured and kept for later slaughter, and bred while in captivity, so people could sheer the sheep, and cull the herd for meat when required. The hunt would not be as important, once captured animals were available. And perhaps weaponry improved, where a skilled huntsman could down a deer from a distance, with an arrow, let's say. And just a couple miles from the site, it is studied, was were the first wheat, that held its ripened seeds fast when shaken appeared, around that time, making collecting wheat for bread doable, and allowed the planting of said grasses to cause in time, a more sedentary way of life, the growth of villages and towns and less and less a need for the hunt. The place went obsolete. People had their pigs and sheep and goats and cattle, and could get their milk and meat and clothing from these animals, and could eat bread and porridge and might have "captured" other sources of food as well. Like eating the fruit from the fruit tree that sprung up from where they had discarded the seeds, and the grape vines and the other vegetables and fruits they used to gather were now in their garden and they no longer had to go out to hunt, and gather. They brought the hunt to a locality and made the gathering local.

 

Regards, TAR

Well I think in the case of golbekli tepe the hunt already was appropriate in that area, because of the blind valleys in which to corner fleeing animals, as shown in the Google Earth shot. The improvement of the method, and the keeping of the huntsman away and above the tooth and claw and hoof and tooth and antler was perhaps a staged thing. The moving of large stones to stand on at the end of the valleys, may have been the first step. And this practice was improved upon and centralized as the years passed. The site, is in the center of the trapping ridge. It makes sense that it could have developed in this manner.

additional thought

 

the stands are of different heights, this might be for use with different prey

 

Like the tallest for the stags with antlers and great leaping ability, and shorter for cattle, and shorter for boar and shorter still for sheep, to get as close as was safe.

 

notice the ledge around the inside ring of a certain height, and the ledge around the outside ring of a certain height, were hunters could stand above their prey

Further evidence supporting my hypothesis can be found by looking at 37 degrees 13 minutes 25.64 seconds N 38 degrees 55 minutes 09.98 seconds E and imagining a herd chased up the valley running into a cliff with another group of hunters standing at the top at 2498 ft, at 37 degrees 13 minutes 23.43 seconds N 38 degrees 55 minutes 10.83 seconds E.

 

This natural killing zone, was later reconstructed, with better containment in the construction of Gobekli Tepe. The natural site gave us the idea. And we improved upon the situation.

Or without worrying about the degrees, go to Gobekli Tepe and look at the terrain about 600 ft to the West. You will find yourself at the top of this ledge of which I speak.

And look at the other two valleys that point up to the Gobekli Tepe plateau, from the South, and the four that come in from the North. In each case, except maybe not so obvious on the SE valley, you can find outcropping of rocks that look like natural hiding places and places where hunters could stand above the prey. Like defensive positions you might find if you were military, claiming cover, concealment and the high ground. Natural advantage spots, that were used so often and so well for so many generations, that people decided to improve upon the idea (perfect the idea) and build the site.

further thought

 

Cliffs are not only good to stand on and defend and command the higher ground, they are also good for driving a herd off of. Then collect the injured animals at the bottom.

 

It is not impossible that these "traps" were build below grade. To drive the animals into the pit, so to speak, and deal with them there. This would also help account for the burying since being below grade, as holes, they could easily collect refuse.

 

A car I once owned was pushed down an abandon mine shaft (not by me) to discard it. Also, I remember seeing a pit near the site, as perhaps this pit caught animals on occasion, and we copied the method.

This pit is at 37 degrees 13 minutes 22.76 seconds N 38degress 55 minutes 22.46seconds E, just SE of the site.

 

It is called the "holy well", but according to my hypothesis, it might be the inspiration for the site, as it could have been the pit where animals were first trapped,

Also check out the google pictures to the South West of the site. There seem to be a number of holes in the limestone not far from the top of the cliff I was talking about earlier.

Edited July 4, 2016 by tar

[Robittybob1]

That shape is so unsuitable for the capture of animals. Humans and humanoids would have been using pits and traps for catching prey for millions of years. There would be the aspect of clever design and cunning evident in any device or structure used and I don't see it in the Gobekli Tepe structures sorry.

[tar]

Robbitybob1,

 

It seems pretty straightforwardly purposeful to me. If it were a trap, what would make it more clever and cunning in design, than what we already see.

 

Which aspects of the plan seem so unlikely to catch prey to you? If we knew about catching prey in pits for a million years, what would be wrong with constructing a pit, into which you could chase various prey, with little chance of escape, while also positioning yourself safely in the pit, to kill the animals?

 

And what do you think about the location where we find Golbekli Tepe, so obviously a natural place to corner prey? Just coincidence? Or a clue to the purpose of the site.

 

It is interesting to me, that I see this as so possible, and you find it completely unlikely.

 

In the interest of falsifying my claim, can you be more specific about how this design is so contrary to your knowledge of how animals behave, that makes it so unlikely that these stones were placed to form a killing_​​/capturing area that could be used generation after generation?

 

Or do you have a different theory as to why it was built, what it was used for, and why it was buried?

 

First, let me know though whether this ridge, that Gobekli Tepe is built on a plateau, in the middle of, looks to you like the termination point of hunt after hunt for 1000s of years. Meaning, could this spot, in your estimation, have some historical value, considering hunting in general...and would you not agree, that to a group of humans who are known to be hunter gatherers, that hunting would be right up there on their list of important things to think about, and plan for?

 

Regards, TAR

That is, talk to me about what you think about the location of this plateau in the middle of a ridge overlooking vast plains to the North, East and South. As if Golbekli Tepe was not even found on the hill. With you knowledge of animals and hunting and such, would prey have been driven into these valleys, and would hunters have used the rocks and ledges to their advantage?

as to the shape, I have these thoughts

 

it is sort of womb shape, consistent with the thought of life, as in food and clothing, coming from it.

 

The ruins are old and rocks could have been moved around many times in many ways, to where addition walls may have been present to funnel animals into the mouth.

 

Or, the traps could have been built below grade, to where animals coming from any direction, would fall in.

 

If you look at the plateau that we are talking about, the site is at the center of it, meaning that any animal forced up to the plateau would have the choice of jumping down steep grades or jumping into the trap, or going back down the way they came, blocked by hunters.

If your objection is that no animal would go into the mouth, what if that passage was meant for the hunters to enter the floor of the pit, and the entrance to the pit was from any direction into, the structure being purposefully built where the circle would be a hole, easy in, hard out.

Or what if many of these were used at the same time, and were joined in various fashions where they were all below grade, and formed a labyrinth into which running animals would fall?

Or maybe not the termination point of hunts for 1000 years but for millions, before the last ice age, and then resumed after the last ice age.

Look at the last picture in #59 and consider it a suggestion of the placement of trapping pits, on the ends and in the middle of a plateau and at the ends of the blind valleys leading up to the plateau. Like an 8000 BC hunter's guide to pit placement.

Also, it seems funny to me, that so many are looking for a religious purpose, or an alien connection, when simple necessity and human ingenuity could explain the site.

[Robittybob1]

Do they know how old the drawings are in #59? Interesting similarity.

[tar]

Robbitybob1,

 

 

The Wiki article on Rock Drawings of Valcamonica, put the drawings (etchings) from 8 thousand years prior the iron age , with some from Latin times and some fewer from Medieval and modern graffiti.

 

Regards, TAR

Although I did see mention that the 4 valleys to the southwest of the site might have been made by quarrying activities in classical times, so the way the ridge and plateau is arranged today might not completely represent what it looked like 11 thousand years ago at Golbekli Tepe. We have had 11 thousand years worth of erosion and quarrying and rock moving since.

And I would guess, that since people were present then and people are present now, that we should be able to trace a history from then to now, through the sites in the area, that would include giving people then the smarts required to build such a site, without linking it to gods or aliens.

Ya know, I just had a thought. Many time periods in history were populated by extraordinary men. Moses, Alexander the great, the emperors of the great empires, the great scientists and philosophers that dominated political and technical and spiritual aspects of civilization...but before history, before empires, before religion, there still could have been extraordinary men, who had clever ways to modify the world to human advantage. These ideas would spread then, like ideas spread now. One guy thinks up the internet and everybody uses it. One guy discovers the wheel and everybody uses it. One guy cuts a stone and everybody does it. It might not spread in a nanosecond as it does today. But as there were wandering minstrels in Europe, 1000 years ago, there were probably wanderers and explorers and extraordinary people and ideas even 11 thousand years ago. And although the news might spread very slowly, and might be contained by mountains and seas to particular areas, it seems that given generations upon generations to learn from their parents, and teach their children, technology, what one shared with another, could easily be spread all around the Mediterranean in a few hundred years. Maybe there was just a great artist born near Gobekli tepe that added his flare to the stones that already had a societal purpose. (the hunt)

meaning that societies were probable before civilizations, and technology a​​nd the ability of man to recognize and manipulate the world to his advantage most probably existed prior written record, and this technology could be taught, and learned by example, and did not require a written language to get the point across

some technologies go out of fashion as their purpose might lose importance...I am thinking about the canal system that once existed in New Jersey to get goods across the state before railroads

 

at one point, man could set big stones upon one another without modern technology

 

that it was true is evident by the large numbers of big stones placed in convenient positions that were obviously not natural occurrences

(and being that I am posting on a science site, I am ruling out gods and aliens...it must have been us)

 

And to any argument that would suggest that we got too smart too fast for it not to have required alien help, I would argue back, how did the aliens get so smart so fast. Any civilization, anywhere, could not have gotten any further than 13.8 billion years of star evolution, and several billion years of planetary evolution could have gotten them.

not that we have to be at the pinnacle of universal technology, there are probably those that have evolved further along whatever track they are on, but any advanced society would have to have evolved from what was before, and requiring the help of aliens would not answer how those aliens did it, without alien help...and at some point you have to say the buck stops here.

 

We did it by ourselves.

same way as a colony of bees create hexagonal honeycombs without a geometry professor

or a cherry tree figures out how to bloom and attract the bees to pollenate their neighbor blossoming tree without knowing what a species is

or a planet figures out how to travel In an ellipse around the Sun while simultaneously traveling around the center of the milky way...without a physics degree

Edited July 5, 2016 by tar

[Endy0816]

Gobekli Tepe consists of multiple circles in the same relatively small area.

 

 

 

Here are a couple of desert kites for comparison.

 

I was reading one site suggesting Gobekli was built as an observatory. Thought that was a reasonable explanation for those center pillars.

 

 

 

 

[tar]

Endy0816,

 

I also remember reading that over 100,000 bone fragments were found at Golbekli Tepe, mostly Gazelle bones.

 

The migration of the herds mentioned in your article may provide the reason for why the observatory part of the construction, was required, to know when to gather for the hunt.

 

And the effectiveness of the hunt, in reducing the numbers of gazelle available year after year, might be why the site was eventually buried. No more big gazelle herd.

 

However, I am still thinking that the pock marks, or bowl shaped holders on top of the Ts were meant to hold the stones that the hunters on top of the Ts were using to knock out the prey, without their activity knocking off ammunition.

 

I noticed in one of the circles, two of the stones have a slot cut into the business end of the T, and I am wondering what form of weapon or ammunition, or "holder" could have be rigged to the slot, for the hunt. Perhaps if a certain weapon, like bow and arrow was developed around that time, the slots would be required to hold the quiver full of arrows...or something.

 

Also related to the possible reduction of the Gazelle herds, is the fact that the Ts at Navali Cori were shorter, possibly indicating that the leaping gazelle horns and hoofs were no longer an issue, at the time of its construction. Maybe they just needed to get high enough above boar and sheep at that point.

 

I also still like my thought that the rocks allowed the animal to be knocked out, without death and great loss of blood. Thought being that the hunters would have too much meat following a successful slaughter, and it would spoil before they could bring it back to their families. Also, dragging a dead gazelle or a live bound gazelle would be about the same, except the live one you could kill when you needed the meat. This hypothetical practice of retaining the bound live animal could also be instrumental in the domestication of animals that seemed to have developed in the fertile crescent possibly as a result of the activities at Golbekli Tepe. Keep a captured pregnant sheep alive long enough and you get a baby sheep that you can raise in captivity and eat next season. Keep a ram and you have a stud to impregnate any female sheep you or your neighboring tribe might hav

 

I could not get a good read on the terrain around Nevali Cori, because its right on the edge of a drowned valley, a huge lake made by a large modern dam.

 

But the setup around Golbeki Tepe seems like the plateau could have been part of a gazelle migration route over that blocking ridge.

 

Regards, TAR

Works of Old Men.

Edited July 5, 2016 by tar

[michel123456]

Gobekli Tepe consists of multiple circles in the same relatively small area.

 

 

 

Here are a couple of desert kites for comparison.

 

I was reading one site suggesting Gobekli was built as an observatory. Thought that was a reasonable explanation for those center pillars.

 

 

 

 

Desert kites. I was unaware of that. +1

[Robittybob1]

Desert kites. I was unaware of that. +1

If Gobekli Tepe circles had these long lead-in arms then I'd agree it was used for hunting animals. Do they have the trapping mechanism?

[tar]

Robittybob1,

 

I don't see the funnel constructed out of stones by man. I see the funnels in the three valleys from the north and the 2 or three from the south, that lead to the trap as surely as a row of stones does.

 

Regards, TAR

observation

 

The kite shape trapping area had bellies inward to I presume allow the hunters to get close to the prey without being inside the trap with the animals to get trampled, bitten, gored...etc.

 

The Ts allow a circle around to attack from the outside, but additionally allows the hunters on the tops of the center Ts to attack any animals looking for safety in the middle.

the kites are dated about 5 or 6 thousand years ago. Golbekli Tepe more like twice that age, like 11 or t2 thousand. If the kites were the work of old men , Gobekli Tepe was the work of men that would be the old men to the kite workers. Some great civilization techniques where discovered between the two times. Domestication, farming, settlements, beginnings of religion...etc. What was the order of these advances? What makes sense? Previous assumptions about the order have been brought into question after Gobekli Tepe was unearthed. I am thinking religion and law would come after settlements and villages and cities. There would, or should be a reason why people congregated, before cities and agriculture, and religion. I think this reason was the collective hunt. And in the case of Golbekli Tepe, the collective hunt was enhanced by the collective effort of building an excellent, lasting trap.

This created a situation were hunter gatherer congregated again and again over 1000s of years, and from that congregation and stability, came the settlements, and the domestications, and the planting of the easy to gather grasses.

Edited July 5, 2016 by tar

[tar]

However, looking at other sites

Cayonu

Catalhoyuk

Nevali Cori

Karahan Tepe

Tell Qaramel

Abu Hureyra

Tell Qaramel

 

It appears that the bull symbol that appeared on the T at Golbekli Tepe was revered at Tell Qaramel...but animal husbandry and cultivation was evident at Tell Qaramel. Almost at the same time...but maybe, according to my thinking the capture of oxen would have to proceed their domestication, and there has to be an advantage that we gained over oxen, and other animals, that occurred around the time of their domestication.

 

Another site, later on, shows reverence to a mother figure and a father figure. This seems to me reasonable, as sort of an ancestor worship, or honoring your mother and father. And it seems to have occurred many generations, after Golbekli Tepe. Were the bull comes in I would imagine the virility, related to cows and cattle, with the milk and meat, gives one quite a real thing to be thankful for and honor.

 

But Golbeki Tepe, a temple? Before or at the time of husbandry and cultivation becoming part of our toolkit...I don't think it is required yet. The shaman I don't think is required before the village. There may be something though about the stars. Now we know the stars are lyrs away...but then, as now on a clear night, away from city lights, the stars look close enough to touch. They were part of existence, as surely as the Sun and Moon. That there could have been then speculation and superstitions about reincarnation, and entering and exiting the world through the place where the milkyway touched the earth, I suppose is understandable, or believable, and perhaps these "temples" were built to accomplish something along those lines...but it is missing something to me, in terms of how you get people together in the first place, to consider it built by shamans to placate the gods.

 

These things I think would develop after people had a reason to congregate. And I am thinking that finding yourself together with other hunter gatherers on the same ridge at the same time of year for 1000 years might serve to bind a group together to a certain extent. And the boulders moved into position one year, to stand on and slaughter the herd, would be there next year, when you all came back to do it again. It would not take to much imagination, to perfect the boulder, in terms of hunting stand, and place a bunch together in a confusing labyrinth to corner and slaughter the next herd.

Edited July 6, 2016 by tar

[tar]

Tell Qaramel 11^th millennial BC to 9600BC

Abu Hureyra 9500BC-9000BC

Gobekli Tepe 10???BC-8000BC

Nevali Cori 8900BC-8100BC

Karahan Tepe 8500BC

Catalhoyuk 7500BC-5600BC

Cayonu 7200BC-6600BC

Edited July 7, 2016 by tar

[tar]

73 has an error

I said cultivation and husbandry was evident at Tell Qaramel, but when I reread the Wiki article it says the opposite.

 

Catalhoyuk had the bull horns but that site was after cultivation and husbandry was established, by about 1000 or 2000 years.

Edited July 7, 2016 by tar