imatfaal Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Just heard the horrific and heart-rending news from Orlando. Thoughts and all my commiserations go out to the families and loved ones of those killed, and best wishes for a speedy recovery for those hurt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 It's really very sad. So much hate for no reason. However, I wonder if the NRA are now fighting with themselves about saying " What we need to do is give all the gays and lesbians guns!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 However, I wonder if the NRA are now fighting with themselves about saying " What we need to do is give all the gays and lesbians guns!". Why limit profit potential? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 How many has it been this year already? And this one is the worst in US history, it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raider5678 Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 This said, I still think ISIS should be eradicated. Of course, since fighting them is a bad idea according to some.... Extremist Muslims. It's getting tiring. Why can't they be like the rest of the Muslim populace? P.S. I don't know enough about fighting terrorists, I have no clue why its a bad idea to not fight terrorist but I'm pretty sure there's some logic behind it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 When we woke up this morning, the first thing my girlfriend said was how she felt so bad about the singer who was killed by a shooter following her concert in Orlando last night. Then we checked the news. Not a good night in Orlando. This said, I still think ISIS should be eradicated. Of course, since fighting them is a bad idea according to some.... Extremist Muslims. It's getting tiring. Why can't they be like the rest of the Muslim populace? P.S. I don't know enough about fighting terrorists, I have no clue why its a bad idea to not fight terrorist but I'm pretty sure there's some logic behind it. Why do you think no one is fighting ISIS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 This said, I still think ISIS should be eradicated. Of course, since fighting them is a bad idea according to some.... Extremist Muslims. It's getting tiring. Why can't they be like the rest of the Muslim populace? P.S. I don't know enough about fighting terrorists, I have no clue why its a bad idea to not fight terrorist but I'm pretty sure there's some logic behind it. Fighting a terrorist is like fighting one’s own imagination; I can think of some scary shit but I can imagine scarier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raider5678 Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 When we woke up this morning, the first thing my girlfriend said was how she felt so bad about the singer who was killed by a shooter following her concert in Orlando last night. Then we checked the news. Not a good night in Orlando. Why do you think no one is fighting ISIS? I never said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 I never said that. I apologize if I misunderstood your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 P.S. I don't know enough about fighting terrorists, I have no clue why its a bad idea to not fight terrorist but I'm pretty sure there's some logic behind it. Come on, put away the "obtuse" card. When I've mentioned not fighting terrorists, I've been very specific in saying it's a mistake, imo, to fight them conventionally. If you're instead actively trying to remove their sources of funding, recruitment, and weaponry, why isn't that fighting them? If conventional warfare has made them grow, why not try a different way? Some fires you don't douse with water (and certainly not with gasoline). You smother them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raider5678 Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Come on, put away the "obtuse" card. When I've mentioned not fighting terrorists, I've been very specific in saying it's a mistake, imo, to fight them conventionally. If you're instead actively trying to remove their sources of funding, recruitment, and weaponry, why isn't that fighting them? If conventional warfare has made them grow, why not try a different way? Some fires you don't douse with water (and certainly not with gasoline). You smother them. Actually I was talking about my neighbor...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 (edited) When we woke up this morning, the first thing my girlfriend said was how she felt so bad about the singer who was killed by a shooter following her concert in Orlando last night. Then we checked the news. Not a good night in Orlando. Why do you think no one is fighting ISIS? What would happen if you applied ISIS sort of justice to their fighters? If they kill, retribution will be meted out to them in the same proportion. If they kill 50 people 50 members of their own family will be executed. You might think this is extreme but it sure would encourage family members to dob-in the troublemakers before disaster strikes. Perpetrators would really consider the consequences of their potential actions too. I can't imagine no one knew this attack was going to happen. Edited June 12, 2016 by Robittybob1 -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Yes, I'm sure murdering 50 people, most if not all of whom had nothing even tangentially to do with the attack and would do lots to win hearts and minds. If your family was all executed because some second cousin twice removed went on a rampage, I'm sure your first reaction would be "I should make sure to turn in anyone who wants to attack the people who slaughtered my innocent relatives in the future" and not "I should kill the people who slaughtered my innocent relatives." You actually managed to come up with a punishment that is worse than North Korea's three generation rule. I'm impressed. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdEarl Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 If we understand their methods and motives, then we might be able to craft a good non-lethal response, preferably one that makes them good citizens. That someone has been accused, convicted and imprisoned for a crime does not make them guilty; many innocent people have served prison sentences. Even if a person does something illegal and immoral does not necessarily make them a bad person; desperate people do many things to survive. There may be some perverts, e.g., sadists, but it seems unlikely all are. I'd need a lot more information than I have from news media to make rational decisions about how to counter ISIS and others. When the CIA has house-flies among "terrorists" we might get enough info to make good counter terrorism decisions. Until then, our efforts are likely to be clumsy or inappropriate no matter how high tech. I feel like the US response to terrorism has exacerbated our problems, instead of eliminating terrorism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 A comment I saw on twitter said basically the gun debate was over after Sandy Hook. If killing a bunch of kids isn't enough to effect change, then the powers that be will not act. They've decided that they're OK with that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 What would happen if you applied ISIS sort of justice to their fighters? If they kill, retribution will be meted out to them in the same proportion. If they kill 50 people 50 members of their own family will be executed. You might think this is extreme but it sure would encourage family members to dob-in the troublemakers before disaster strikes. Perpetrators would really consider the consequences of their potential actions too. I can't imagine no one knew this attack was going to happen. Are you actually trying to recruit for ISIS? Because that's the sort of bewilderingly stupid comment that will help them. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 (edited) Yes, I'm sure murdering 50 people, most if not all of whom had nothing even tangentially to do with the attack and would do lots to win hearts and minds. If your family was all executed because some second cousin twice removed went on a rampage, I'm sure your first reaction would be "I should make sure to turn in anyone who wants to attack the people who slaughtered my innocent relatives in the future" and not "I should kill the people who slaughtered my innocent relatives." You actually managed to come up with a punishment that is worse than North Korea's three generation rule. I'm impressed. It is meant to nip the problem in the bud. Not to murder in reaction. Are you actually trying to recruit for ISIS? Because that's the sort of bewilderingly stupid comment that will help them. How will that help them? Explain please. On the news here they said a person heavily armed was planning something in California but was arrested before anyone was hurt. That is what I was trying to encourage. Edited June 12, 2016 by Robittybob1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonDie Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 From a WashingtonPost article: "Some people managed to escape out of the back of the club after a bouncer knocked down a partition between the club area and a restricted area leading to an exit, he noted." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 (edited) It is meant to nip the problem in the bud. Not to murder in reaction. But your method of nipping the problem in the bud is threatening to murder people in reaction. The only way you don't murder people in reaction is if you assume that the threat of violence will deter people from ever committing an act that you will respond to. Historically, that never winds up being the case, so you will have to murder innocent people in order to enforce this solution at some point. Edited June 12, 2016 by Delta1212 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 When this happened I was at my sons house sitting up drinking wine with him and his partner. We were laughing, singing telling jokes and having a great time. I left this morning and didn't get home until 13:30... The first thing i saw when I got home was this horrific crime being reported, it could have been my son was all I could think about, I cried, something has to give, hate cannot be allowed to win! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rangerx Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 However, I wonder if the NRA are now fighting with themselves about saying " What we need to do is give all the gays and lesbians guns!". Not to mention facilitating a suspected homegrown terrorist by advocating unfettered access to guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Endy0816 Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Place I'm moving into is just down the road from there. Been walking around in shock for most of the day. Difficult not to want to assign blame, but we need to avoid jumping to any conclusions. May have well been a lone wolf attack with nobody else aware. Maybe he was just insane and the equally disturbing shooting the other night set him off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robittybob1 Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 (edited) But your method of nipping the problem in the bud is threatening to murder people in reaction. The only way you don't murder people in reaction is if you assume that the threat of violence will deter people from ever committing an act that you will respond to. Historically, that never winds up being the case, so you will have to murder innocent people in order to enforce this solution at some point. In this case he claimed to be an ISIS fighter and ISIS is reported to have claimed responsibility. If that law had been in place both those claims may not have been made. If that was the case that would be the first benefit for ISIS would not get the propaganda advantage. Edited June 12, 2016 by Robittybob1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie71 Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 This said, I still think ISIS should be eradicated. Of course, since fighting them is a bad idea according to some.... Extremist Muslims. It's getting tiring. Why can't they be like the rest of the Muslim populace? P.S. I don't know enough about fighting terrorists, I have no clue why its a bad idea to not fight terrorist but I'm pretty sure there's some logic behind it. For every Muslim terrorist act there are 1.5 to 2 right wing terrorist acts in the US. Conservatives. It's getting tiring. Why can't they learn to be human? The attack in Orlando was horrific. Regardless of the ideology of the shooter, so much suffering and misery. My heart goes out to all those affected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted June 12, 2016 Share Posted June 12, 2016 Place I'm moving into is just down the road from there. Been walking around in shock for most of the day. Difficult not to want to assign blame, but we need to avoid jumping to any conclusions. May have well been a lone wolf attack with nobody else aware. Maybe he was just insane and the equally disturbing shooting the other night set him off. Why wouldn't ISIS have claimed credit for the attack if that was the law? They get the propaganda advantage of the attack as well as the propaganda advantage of the world seeing the US execute 50 people in retaliation. That seems like a win-win from ISIS's perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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