Not again...

[swansont]

 

On the news here they said a person heavily armed was planning something in California but was arrested before anyone was hurt.

 

 

 

And it was a white guy, with an innocuous (to many Americans) name, so of course this is being largely ignored.

[Raider5678]

He did say politician. Not that it matters. Core point is the same, and he's simply not yet aware of it... At least not until corrected here. The question is whether these corrections will penetrate and whether his thinking on this will deflect closer toward reality.

Nah. I'm seriously contemplating this.

[MigL]

I guess since its in the Political forum its become a political discussion.

Some people seem more concerned with scoring political points for their favorite ideology, rather than discuss the real issue.

This has nothing to do with 'conservative' terrorists or whatever other labels you want to attach to the gunman.

Rather the fact that an obviously disturbed ( bipolar ? ) person was able to obtain and carry a dangerous firearm, and do so much damage.

Even the fact that he identifies with ISIS is more than likely due to mental issues.

 

And I'm sure someone will say if one of the club goers had been carrying, they could have defended themselves and stopped him, because that's always a good idea; A gun fight in a crowded club ???

 

The US has to start getting serious about the mental state and competence of the people they allow to purchase and carry firearms.

[CharonY]

Cannot agree more. However, I cannot even begin to imagine how such a system would have to look like to catch these cases.

[imatfaal]

I guess since its in the Political forum its become a political discussion.

Some people seem more concerned with scoring political points for their favorite ideology, rather than discuss the real issue.

This has nothing to do with 'conservative' terrorists or whatever other labels you want to attach to the gunman.

Rather the fact that an obviously disturbed ( bipolar ? ) person was able to obtain and carry a dangerous firearm, and do so much damage.

Even the fact that he identifies with ISIS is more than likely due to mental issues.

 

And I'm sure someone will say if one of the club goers had been carrying, they could have defended themselves and stopped him, because that's always a good idea; A gun fight in a crowded club ???

 

The US has to start getting serious about the mental state and competence of the people they allow to purchase and carry firearms.

+1

 

In Politics cos putting it in the lounge seemed flippant - and I knew a political discussion / debate / rant would ensue

[StringJunky]

Cannot agree more. However, I cannot even begin to imagine how such a system would have to look like to catch these cases.

This is why AR15 rifles and the like should never be public issue, because of people like him; disturbed.

Edited June 13, 2016 by StringJunky

[iNow]

I cannot even begin to imagine how such a system would have to look like to catch these cases.

In this case specifically, the guy had a history of domestic violence, had been investigated for making threats at work, later investigated (twice) for likely connections to terrorist groups, and also had a history of mental illness. Still got is AR15 without issue, though. Maybe we could start by acting on the obvious red flags (see sentence 1) and go from there?

[dimreepr]

Oh, I'm sorry. When was the last time a right wing politician strapped a bomb to his back and ran out and blew some people up?

 

 

Politicians, right or left, would never do that; they’d just get a minion to do it for them.

[CharonY]

Ultimately that would also mean a stronger interaction between mental health care providers and law enforcement, with all the problems that may cause,

[imatfaal]

This is how the weapon of choice of mentally ill mass murderers is advertised

 

 

something is very wrong

[MonDie]

More from WashingtonPost:

"Yusifiy said her former husband wasn’t very devout and preferred spending his free time working out at the gym. She said in the few months they were married he gave no signs of having fallen under the sway of radical Islam.

[...] But one friend said Mateen became steadily more religious after his divorce and went on a religious pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/ex-wife-of-suspected-orlando-shooter-he-beat-me/2016/06/12/8a1963b4-30b8-11e6-8ff7-7b6c1998b7a0_story.html

 

DailyMail:

"Seddique Mateen said that his son got angry when he saw two men kissing in Miami a couple of months ago and thinks that may be related to the shooting."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3637968/Father-America-s-deadly-mass-shooter-wanted-Afghan-president-job-TV-showed-support-Taliban.html

 

 

---

 

He didn't have a diagnosis. You can't do this and not be antisocial, which more or less implies narcissism, but he might have been bipolar or had a borderline or paranoid personality too, which obviously doesn't help. The personality disorders lie on a continuum.

Edited June 13, 2016 by MonDie

[dimreepr]

The media promoting revenge as a means to an end seems very wrong.

 

 

Edit/ cross-posted.

Edited June 13, 2016 by dimreepr

[Arete]

Nah. I'm seriously contemplating this.

 

One of the main issues in responding to this kind of terrorism, is that a core part of the radical Islamic narrative is that the West hates Islam, is at war with the Islamic world and ultimately wants to eradicate Islam from the face of the planet.

 

This may seem ridiculous to you and me, who have never really borne any ill will towards Muslims in general, but it is important to note it didn't just appear out of nowhere. There's a long history of the West not exactly being great for the Islamic world - annexing their countries (e.g. Pakistan), fighting proxy wars in their countries (e.g. North African Front - WWII, Afghanistan in the 70's), redrawing their borders without consultation (e.g. Partitioning of the Ottoman empire), propping up violent dictators (e.g. Saddam Hussein, Ali Saleh), Invading their countries (e.g. Turkey, Iraq x2), etc. I'd like to note that understanding the history that leads to Islamic terrorism in no way condones it, it doesn't matter what motivates it, it's abhorrent.

 

However, understanding what motivates it makes it obvious that any act of violence, or declaration of violence, particularly those that would cause civilian casualties, or even worse, deliberately targeting civilians perpetuates and strengthens the narrative - which is what ISIS and Al Qaeda use to recruit. For example, statements by Trump about muslims are currently being used in recruitment videos by ISIS.

 

I mean think about it, say your brother was deployed to Iraq. ISIS find out your sister is getting married, so they drop a bomb on the Church and kill your extended family, or at least say they will. Does that make you want to enlist to fight them more, or less?

 

Violence begets violence, at least in this case. We need to find a different solution.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Arete

[Delta1212]

Or at the very least be smarter about it than some of the "nuke the Middle East" "kill all the Arabs" rhetoric I've heard from various quarters over the last decade or so.

 

And just to inject some Machievelli into things: Everybody remembers "It is better to be feared than loved" and forgets the second part that states that the worst thing to be is hated.

 

Hatred tends to overpower fear, so if the methods you come up with to instill fear in your enemies are even better at instilling hatred, you wind up creating more enemies who will fight you longer and harder instead of cowing the ones you are trying to get rid of in the first place.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Delta1212

[CharonY]

 

One of the main issues in responding to this kind of terrorism, is that a core part of the radical Islamic narrative is that the West hates Islam, is at war with the Islamic world and ultimately wants to eradicate Islam from the face of the planet.

 

This may seem ridiculous to you and me, who have never really borne any ill will towards Muslims in general, but it is important to note it didn't just appear out of nowhere. There's a long history of the West not exactly being great for the Islamic world - annexing their countries (e.g. Pakistan), fighting proxy wars in their countries (e.g. North African Front - WWII, Afghanistan in the 70's), redrawing their borders without consultation (e.g. Partitioning of the Ottoman empire), propping up violent dictators (e.g. Saddam Hussein, Ali Saleh), Invading their countries (e.g. Turkey, Iraq x2), etc. I'd like to note that understanding the history that leads to Islamic terrorism in no way condones it, it doesn't matter what motivates it, it's abhorrent.

 

However, understanding what motivates it makes it obvious that any act of violence, or declaration of violence, particularly those that would cause civilian casualties, or even worse, deliberately targeting civilians perpetuates and strengthens the narrative - which is what ISIS and Al Qaeda use to recruit. For example, statements by Trump about muslims are currently being used in recruitment videos by ISIS.

 

I mean think about it, say your brother was deployed to Iraq. ISIS find out your sister is getting married, so they drop a bomb on the Church and kill your extended family, or at least say they will. Does that make you want to enlist to fight them more, or less?

 

Violence begets violence, at least in this case. We need to find a different solution.

 

On top of increasing violence, these actions also diminish the influence of moderate forces as it creates a "you are with us or against us" attitude. That, in turn, leads to further destabilization and hence, increasing influence of radical groups.

[StringJunky]

 

Vigils are being held across the UK in memory of the 49 people killed in a shooting at a gay nightclub in Orlando.

Events are taking place in various cities to show solidarity and support for LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) people worldwide.

Hundreds gathered in Glasgow's George Square, while Soho in London was packed with people paying their respects.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36520754

[iNow]

Perspective matters.

 

The Orlando massacre was one of 43 shootings yesterday

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/13/11923290/orlando-shooting-gun-violence-us

What got much less coverage, though, were the 42 other reported shootings that happened yesterday. According to news reports collected by the Gun Violence Archive and Vox, these shootings resulted in an additional 18 deaths and 41 injuries. At least five of those killed were children.

 

[StringJunky]

Perspective matters.

 

The Orlando massacre was one of 43 shootings yesterday

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/13/11923290/orlando-shooting-gun-violence-us

 

Everything's normal about it then; it just broke a record and that's why it's newsworthy... for a few days.

[MonDie]

Perspective matters.The Orlando massacre was one of 43 shootings yesterdayhttp://www.vox.com/2016/6/13/11923290/orlando-shooting-gun-violence-us

42 shootings

59 shot

18 killed

 

Most of them didn't even kill the guy they shot.

Probably self defense.

[Elite Engineer]

IMO, there needs to be far more efficient vetting processes for terrorist suspects. It seems the FBI gets a look at these suspects, and then walks away. The last couple of terrorist attacks all had previous signs of suspicion, either with tips from foreign governments or FBI investigations. If these terrorists cant get their hands on firearms, explosives are the next choice. Boston bombings anyone?

 

~EE

Perspective matters.

The Orlando massacre was one of 43 shootings yesterday
http://www.vox.com/2016/6/13/11923290/orlando-shooting-gun-violence-us

How many of these are gang related, with the criminals getting the firearms illegally? Chicago alone has double digit deaths over the weekend via gang violence.

[StringJunky]

IMO, there needs to be far more efficient vetting processes for terrorist suspects. It seems the FBI gets a look at these suspects, and then walks away. The last couple of terrorist attacks all had previous signs of suspicion, either with tips from foreign governments or FBI investigations. If these terrorists cant get their hands on firearms, explosives are the next choice. Boston bombings anyone?

 

~EE

How many of these are gang related, with the criminals getting the firearms illegally? Chicago alone has double digit deaths over the weekend via gang violence.

The man was mentally ill, that's why the FBI couldn't hang anything on him. He became a 'terrorist' at the last minute.

Edited June 14, 2016 by StringJunky

[Elite Engineer]

The man was mentally ill, that's why the FBI couldn't hang anything on him. He became a 'terrorist' at the last minute.

The FBI was warned of the Tsarnaev brothers by Russian intelligence..no investigation. Tashfeen Malik pledged alligance to ISIS on facebook...no actions/ investigation. This recent shooter in Orlando, told his co-workers that he wanted to kill Americans, and supported Hezbollah. No action/ investigation. This goes along with all the mentally ill domestic terrorists who post similar things on social media and no action is taken.

 

What source said he was "mentally ill"..unless radical religious beliefs are "mental illness"...then yes, high five.

[StringJunky]

What source said he was "mentally ill"..unless radical religious beliefs are "mental illness"...then yes, high five.

From the BBC news site; it's gone now. My understanding was that he had long-running social.violence issues and only fairly recently took on the ISIS banner as a cause.

[iNow]

ISIS was his scapegoat, not his cause.

[StringJunky]

ISIS was his scapegoat, not his cause.

Perfect way to express my thought. +1