Not again...

[DrP]

sorry - misheard the news on the radio.

[imatfaal]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/17/opinion/home-should-not-be-a-war-zone.html?_r=0

 

Great Article by STANLEY McCHRYSTAL

But that was just part of the bloodshed in our communities this past weekend, when at least 121 people across the country were fatally shot. The tragedy in Orlando wasn’t even the only mass shooting; in Roswell, N.M., a man was charged on Sunday with shooting his wife and their four children to death on Saturday. The oldest was 14; the youngest was 3.

In 2014, 33,599 Americans died from a gunshot wound. From 2001 to 2010, 119,246 Americans were murdered with guns, 18 times all American combat deaths in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[StringJunky]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/17/opinion/home-should-not-be-a-war-zone.html?_r=0

 

Great Article by STANLEY McCHRYSTAL

 

Just another day in America

[Raider5678]

Just another day in America

You mean he probably wouldn't have done that if he didn't have a gun? In most probability he would have used something else, like a baseball bat or a knife.

[iNow]

In which case, maybe one or two people would've been killed, perhaps even five or six... Not fifty.

[Raider5678]

In which case, maybe one or two people would've been killed, perhaps even five or six... Not fifty.

While that's true, you once said that putting laws restricting access to drugs wouldn't be very effective, and that moneys better spent educating people about them. Would the same rule apply here? Illegal guns?

[StringJunky]

In which case, maybe one or two people would've been killed, perhaps even five or six... Not fifty.

Took the words right out of my mouth

Edited June 18, 2016 by StringJunky

[iNow]

While that's true, you once said that putting laws restricting access to drugs wouldn't be very effective, and that moneys better spent educating people about them. Would the same rule apply here? Illegal guns?

What I said is that punishment tends to be misapplied and largely ineffective at changing behavior. I said that rehab is better than incarceration when drugs are involved especially. That's completely separate from limiting the volume of firearms floating around our country like skittles or allowing people with known terrorist ties to purchase them without restriction.

.

EDIT: The knives and bats comment also ignores the fact that about 34,000 people die from firearms every year, roughly 90 per day... Or one every 15 minutes. That's not going to happen with knives.

[MigL]

Just to be controversial...

 

How about "limiting the volume of drugs floating around our country like Skittles or allowing people with known predisposition to addictive behavior to purchase them without restriction" ?

 

Do you think that would work ?

Has it worked ?

[iNow]

Of course, both should be done. They're not mutually exclusive. Walking and chewing bubble gum at same time is not an impossible suggestion... Unless we let it be.

[arc]

Just to be controversial...

 

How about "limiting the volume of drugs floating around our country like Skittles or allowing people with known predisposition to addictive behavior to purchase them without restriction" ?

 

Do you think that would work ?

Has it worked ?

 

My paternal grandparents became bootleggers entrepreneurs during Prohibition. They were city folk, my grandmother liked to drink at the bars and continued to do so when the local speakeasy opened for business. A conversation with a supplier lead to my grandmother garnering my grandfather's skills as a master sheet metal journeyman for the production of stills for the thriving local bootleg industry. This eventually lead to them producing their own alcohol at a farm they purchased outside of town. The local police were given incentives to let them know when the federal agents were closing in, so the still could be dismantled and the pieces hidden around the farm. The condenser coil would be placed behind and under 6 to 10 cords of wood in the wood shed next to the barn. The agents would look around for a couple of hours and then leave. Times were good for those willing to take some risks.

 

Prohibition, like the War On Drugs was a complete failure. All the speeches that lead to these prohibitions sounded solid and well thought out, the projected benefits seamed worthy of the sacrifices to the liberties surrendered. Sadly, we also received for our efforts the unforeseen growth of organized crime that would then later benefit from the War On Drugs.

 

These elements are here now, waiting to fulfill the laws of supply and demand. The winners will be the smart entrepreneurs and of coarse those myriad of drug gangs ready to supply even more guns than they already deal in now.

 

What does a gun bootlegger entrepreneur look like? Probably like this guy.

 

https://www.wired.com/2014/10/cody-wilson-ghost-gunner/

 

Wilson’s latest radically libertarian project is a PC-connected milling machine he calls the Ghost Gunner. Like any computer-numerically-controlled (or CNC) mill, the one-foot-cubed black box uses a drill bit mounted on a head that moves in three dimensions to automatically carve digitally-modeled shapes into polymer, wood or aluminum. But this CNC mill, sold by Wilson’s organization known as Defense Distributed for $1,200, is designed to create one object in particular: the component of an AR-15 rifle known as its lower receiver.

That simple chunk of metal has become the epicenter of a gun control firestorm. A lower receiver is the body of the gun that connects its stock, barrel, magazine and other parts. As such, it’s also the rifle’s most regulated element. Mill your own lower receiver at home, however, and you can order the rest of the parts from online gun shops, creating a semi-automatic weapon with no serial number, obtained with no background check, no waiting period or other regulatory hurdles. Some gun control advocates call it a “ghost gun.” Selling that untraceable gun body is illegal, but no law prevents you from making one.

 

This will not end by writing and passing laws, the citizens of this country are drunk on its freedoms and will exercise them with disregard to any attempts to curtail them. My own grandparents were evidence to that.

Edited June 20, 2016 by arc

[StringJunky]

 

My paternal grandparents became bootleggers entrepreneurs during Prohibition. They were city folk, my grandmother liked to drink at the bars and continued to do so when the local speakeasy opened for business. A conversation with a supplier lead to my grandmother garnering my grandfather's skills as a master sheet metal journeyman for the production of stills for the thriving local bootleg industry. This eventually lead to them producing their own alcohol at a farm they purchased outside of town. The local police were given incentives to let them know when the federal agents were closing in, so the still could be dismantled and the pieces hidden around the farm. The condenser coil would be placed behind and under 6 to 10 cords of wood in the wood shed next to the barn. The agents would look around for a couple of hours and then leave. Times were good for those willing to take some risks.

 

Prohibition, like the War On Drugs was a complete failure. All the speeches that lead to these prohibitions sounded solid and well thought out, the projected benefits seamed worthy of the sacrifices to the liberties surrendered. Sadly, we also received for our efforts the unforeseen growth of organized crime that would then later benefit from the War On Drugs.

 

These elements are here now, waiting to fulfill the laws of supply and demand. The winners will be the smart entrepreneurs and of coarse those myriad of drug gangs ready to supply even more guns than they already deal in now.

 

What does a gun bootlegger entrepreneur look like? Probably like this guy.

 

https://www.wired.com/2014/10/cody-wilson-ghost-gunner/

 

Wilson’s latest radically libertarian project is a PC-connected milling machine he calls the Ghost Gunner. Like any computer-numerically-controlled (or CNC) mill, the one-foot-cubed black box uses a drill bit mounted on a head that moves in three dimensions to automatically carve digitally-modeled shapes into polymer, wood or aluminum. But this CNC mill, sold by Wilson’s organization known as Defense Distributed for $1,200, is designed to create one object in particular: the component of an AR-15 rifle known as its lower receiver.

That simple chunk of metal has become the epicenter of a gun control firestorm. A lower receiver is the body of the gun that connects its stock, barrel, magazine and other parts. As such, it’s also the rifle’s most regulated element. Mill your own lower receiver at home, however, and you can order the rest of the parts from online gun shops, creating a semi-automatic weapon with no serial number, obtained with no background check, no waiting period or other regulatory hurdles. Some gun control advocates call it a “ghost gun.” Selling that untraceable gun body is illegal, but no law prevents you from making one.

 

This will not end by writing and passing laws, the citizens of this country are drunk on its freedoms and will exercise them with disregard to any attempts to curtail them. My own grandparents were evidence to that.

Somehow, I can't conflate alcohol control with gun control.

[MigL]

Oh, I don't know...

In 2014 nearly 10000 people died in alcohol related traffic incidents.

I wonder how many more died in alcohol related GUN incidents ?

( and which column would you put those under )

[iNow]

While there are clear health effects of alcohol, its purpose is not to maim or kill others. Suspect this is the core point you're missing (whether intentionally or not, I neither know nor care).

[MonDie]

My paternal grandparents became bootleggers entrepreneurs during Prohibition. They were city folk, my grandmother liked to drink at the bars and continued to do so when the local speakeasy opened for business. A conversation with a supplier lead to my grandmother garnering my grandfather's skills as a master sheet metal journeyman for the production of stills for the thriving local bootleg industry. This eventually lead to them producing their own alcohol at a farm they purchased outside of town. The local police were given incentives to let them know when the federal agents were closing in, so the still could be dismantled and the pieces hidden around the farm. The condenser coil would be placed behind and under 6 to 10 cords of wood in the wood shed next to the barn. The agents would look around for a couple of hours and then leave. Times were good for those willing to take some risks.

 

Prohibition, like the War On Drugs was a complete failure. All the speeches that lead to these prohibitions sounded solid and well thought out, the projected benefits seamed worthy of the sacrifices to the liberties surrendered. Sadly, we also received for our efforts the unforeseen growth of organized crime that would then later benefit from the War On Drugs.

 

These elements are here now, waiting to fulfill the laws of supply and demand. The winners will be the smart entrepreneurs and of coarse those myriad of drug gangs ready to supply even more guns than they already deal in now.

 

What does a gun bootlegger entrepreneur look like? Probably like this guy.

 

https://www.wired.com/2014/10/cody-wilson-ghost-gunner/

 

Wilsons latest radically libertarian project is a PC-connected milling machine he calls the Ghost Gunner. Like any computer-numerically-controlled (or CNC) mill, the one-foot-cubed black box uses a drill bit mounted on a head that moves in three dimensions to automatically carve digitally-modeled shapes into polymer, wood or aluminum. But this CNC mill, sold by Wilsons organization known as Defense Distributed for $1,200, is designed to create one object in particular: the component of an AR-15 rifle known as its lower receiver.

That simple chunk of metal has become the epicenter of a gun control firestorm. A lower receiver is the body of the gun that connects its stock, barrel, magazine and other parts. As such, its also the rifles most regulated element. Mill your own lower receiver at home, however, and you can order the rest of the parts from online gun shops, creating a semi-automatic weapon with no serial number, obtained with no background check, no waiting period or other regulatory hurdles. Some gun control advocates call it a ghost gun. Selling that untraceable gun body is illegal, but no law prevents you from making one.

 

This will not end by writing and passing laws, the citizens of this country are drunk on its freedoms and will exercise them with disregard to any attempts to curtail them. My own grandparents were evidence to that.

 

If you read the article, the machine really only finishes the unfinished gun piece, which can be freely purchased because it isn't considered a gun part yet under current law, and for some reason you can still buy the rermaining parts legally regardless. However cheapening CNC mills and already cheap 3-D printers sound like as serious obstacle to gun reform. We may have to ban the upload or download of the required printouts, and perhaps ban the bash sums while flooding with insidious look-alike versions. Edited June 20, 2016 by MonDie

[iNow]

It's already too late. 3D printing plans and instructions for home gun manufacturing already abound and are already heavily shared across the internet on sites fighting regulations.

[Willie71]

Somehow, I can't conflate alcohol control with gun control.

Substance abuse is a health issue, and is best treated as such. Using the justice system is a bizarre perversion.

 

Guns are a capitalist/propaganda/profit issue. Gun control has worked in many countries, so there is a track record to build off of. Criminalizing addictions has no track record of success.

[imatfaal]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36563337

 

wow - just amazing. vote them out.

[StringJunky]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36563337

 

wow - just amazing. vote them out.

Yes, pathetic. They are as bad a jihadists in their blind devotion to not giving a F-.

[DrP]

QUOTE iNow" it's already too late, 3D printing plans..."

 

Yea, but no one would DARE print one out for fear of the extremely hard penalties for owning a gun without a licence! ;-)

[iNow]

The goal of laws and regulations is improvement, not perfection

[MigL]

I wasn't trying to dilute the seriousness of the gun problem, iNow.

Simply pointing out that drinking and driving is also a problem , in response to another members post.

[iNow]

We can make both better. It's not like the fact that both are bad in any way means we cannot do anything about either.

.

And then there's this:

 

http://www.armedwithreason.com/the-drunk-driving-fallacy-why-gun-regulation-is-like-drunk-driving-laws/

It’s tempting to reduce policy proposals to argumentum ad absurdum by invitation of analogy, but this is not how good policy is formed. That something appears absurd in a completely different context is not an argument.

 

This analogy is non-responsive as the social utility of guns and cars differ in orders of magnitude. The fundamental purpose of a car, at its most basic level, is to convey someone from point A to point B. The purpose of a gun, on the other hand, is to inflict a significant amount of damage on whatever or whomever the gun is aimed at once the trigger is pulled. This is true regardless of whether a gun is used for self-defense, hunting, recreation, or murder. Although a life is a life, killing somebody by accident is not the same as killing somebody on purpose. Except in rare circumstances, killing somebody with a car is an accident. Even when intoxicated, the driver’s intent is not to harm another person. When a shooter fires his or her weapon at another person, whether it be in self-defense or not, the intent is to seriously injure or kill the target. Although gun accidents do happen, they result in a distinct minority of the casualties from gun violence (and we support regulation that minimizes the frequency and severity of gun accidents when they do happen). Guns are weapons, cars are a mode of transportation. There is a significant difference. This line of argument also ignores that the only gun ban currently being proposed is on assault rifles, and that there are many effective regulations other than bans to stem gun violence.

 

Even accepting the analogy as valid, however, leads to the opposite conclusion intended by gun advocates. Instead of illustrating the complete inanity and futility of gun regulation, the analogy highlights the empirical efficacy of car regulation with respect to decreased accident and mortality rates. Regulations on cars and driving have saved nearly 85,000 lives and $600 billion over the past two decades. Even the most simple and ubiquitous safety measures such as seat belts and airbags have reduced mortality rates. Over the past three decades, drunk driving fatalities have fallen 65%. While this staggering drop may not entirely be explained by regulation, the bulk of these changes are a direct result of such policies.

 

Though this examination of car safety laws is necessarily incomplete, it serves to demonstrate the disingenuousness of gun advocates’ claims: there is a middle ground in the decision between complete freedom and a total ban, and it is our obligation to investigate the options available to us in that respect.

[MonDie]

QUOTE iNow" it's already too late, 3D printing plans..."

 

Yea, but no one would DARE print one out for fear of the extremely hard penalties for owning a gun without a licence! ;-)

Okay, so the government takes control of the internet backbone in the US to sensor the instructions used by the 3-D printer. Anne GunnaMiss sees it is blocked and searches until she finds an unblocked upload or a third-party site to avoid a block. Regulation failed.

 

Okay, so the government implements something similar to a NSA Quantum server ( https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/04/tor-attacks-nsa-users-online-anonymity ) to replace the genuine download and discussion with fake content. Anne doubts the authenticity of her printer gun and surfs some more. She finds another downloads, and a comparison reveals the files are not identical. Tada, except that content was compromised too. It still prints the same inferior gun or a slightly less inferior one. In the end Anne compares several printed guns in a variety of environments to determine the best gun, but the police are already watching her.

Edited June 22, 2016 by MonDie

[DrP]

If someone wants a gun then they will get one regulated or not. You will never stop that. You will still have a few shootings a year and people will complain about them saying it wouldn't happen if we had guns to defend ourselves. What you can stop are the daily shootings and mass killings that you have become used to as just the norm. You have desensitised to them due to their daily happenings. What I posted about Jo Cox was really shocking here in the UK... That was 1 person... it might not happen again for 5 years.. (or it could happen tomorrow again, true, but it just doesn't).

 

Sure, Annie can get her gun regardless of regs... but it will be harder for her to find and if she is caught with one she will go down hard.