Hate and hating the hater.

[dimreepr]

dimreeper,

 

But if we hate those who hate gays, because our relative is gay and we hate those who hate our relatives, are we hating appropriately or inappropriately?

 

Earlier someone said hate Is hate.

 

I am thinking hating is something more along the line of what disarray said concerning putting a certain quality out, and assigning this quality to the people you put out.

 

Out of what is the clue I am trying to follow here. I am thinking in terms of the first second and third person, and thinking in terms of friends and enemies, and thinking in terms of those on your team and those on the rival team.

 

Boston fans hate the Yankees. I hate Boston fans that hate the Yankees because I am a Yankee fan.

 

Both teams are athletes with mothers and fathers and families and arms and legs and brains and emotions and uniforms and such, to where hating the one team and loving the other is not sensible. Yet we all do this team thing, this enemy thing. Hilary is proud that she is enemy of the Republicans, the drug companies and the Iranians. Yet she hates haters. What if you are an Iranian, a Republican and work for a drug company. Should you love Hilary, hate her or what?

 

Hate must have a survival benefit, must be a way we have of teaming up and fighting wars against evil stuff we don't want to be associated with. Things that would destroy us, that we instead destroy in order to survive.

 

Regards, TAR

Phi hates selfish greedy people.

I suppose the funny thing about hating the hater is similar to fighting for a lasting Peace.

 

 

 

That was me but I'll also add, hate beget hate; the point is tolerance doesn’t mean you have to like ‘insert hate’, it means you accept 'insert quirk'.

 

You, like all of us, occasionally dislike something a partner does, if you’re full of hate you’d beat him/her if you’re full of love or tolerance you’d kiss her/him.

[Phi for All]

If we did, in the US, what the wealthiest nation on Earth is capable of doing for its citizens, I think many of the situations that foster hate just evaporate.

 

Imagine if you knew you wouldn't cripple your family by needing surgery to save your life. You could focus on taking the best care of them, rather than on earning the right to do so.

 

Imagine if you knew that you can go to school to learn anything that will make you more productive as a citizen. If you can look towards higher education instead of just getting by, or train for a better job instead of turning to crime, you aren't exposed to as many situations where your thoughts turn dark.

 

Imagine if you didn't need to worry that it will be easy for someone with a grudge to get hold of the ultimate hate-amplifier, a loaded weapon. You don't need to worry about having a gun to defend yourself, because they don't outnumber you in your own country. You don't have to worry about the police shooting you because all their policies change the moment guns aren't in so many waistbands and glove compartments. Your whole outlook changes, you realize the power your neighbors and neighborhoods have now that the likelihood of being threatened with guns is radically reduced. Suddenly our police and other security measures become much more effective, and it becomes much easier to find out who has illegal weapons.

 

Imagine if desperately poor people, as well as ludicrously rich people (shadow yacht types), were as hard to find as truth at a Trump rally. Imagine if the relationship between productivity and middle class wages were reestablished, so that more citizens were more prosperous overall with far less at the extremes. Imagine if you remove the jealousy that turns to hatred that happens when good people doing the right thing are crushed by insensitivity and systems that appear rigged against them.

 

There will always be hate, but it doesn't need the help that our elite conservative leadership is shoveling on top of it, feeding it, tending it. We don't need to hate the haters, we just need to be willing to fix the system they've rigged against us. Hate the greed, not the greedy, and you can use the extra energy to keep their hands out of the cookie jars.

[dimreepr]

[tar]

Beautiful song.

 

Interesting, considering Phi's solution that John and Oko filmed that in a huge spacious white room apparently a mansion with grounds.

 

If it was filmed on the filthy streets of some overpopulated slum in India with barefoot and hungry hoards wandering about, the sentiment would not seem as possible or as beautiful.

I saw a piece the other day about the Ganges River and how it is polluted and stinks from the filth of millions including Chromium used in the production of leather goods for sale in the West.

 

8 billion people can not fit in John and Oko's dream room.

[Phi for All]

8 billion people can not fit in John and Oko's dream room.

 

I can hate the apathy and despair in that statement, right?

[dimreepr]

Consider the song, not the flawed human who should be tolerated because he's human/one-of-us.com.

Edited June 16, 2016 by dimreepr

[tar]

What I mean by that, is I don't think I get to live in my house in the suburbs of NYC much longer, since I don't currently have a job and my wife recently got laid off. We are OK because we worked and saved all our lives, and can probably arrange selling the house, and moving to a place with lower taxes and can probably live a comfortable retirement...but probably not without working some more and learning some more to be productive. But I would "hate" to have my stuff and my retirement funds taken away and given to someone else, because Phi thinks I am selfish and greedy and have too much.

[dimreepr]

 

I can hate the apathy and despair in that statement, right

 

 

No, but you can admire the depth of quirk.

[tar]

Phi,

 

What would you have me do for the people in India. Not buy leather goods and deprive them of their livelihood?

 

Regards, TAR

[dimreepr]

What I mean by that, is I don't think I get to live in my house in the suburbs of NYC much longer, since I don't currently have a job and my wife recently got laid off. We are OK because we worked and saved all our lives, and can probably arrange selling the house, and moving to a place with lower taxes and can probably live a comfortable retirement...but probably not without working some more and learning some more to be productive. But I would "hate" to have my stuff and my retirement funds taken away and given to someone else, because Phi thinks I am selfish and greedy and have too much.

 

 

 

Whats the point of hating what you fear, if it doesn't have big teeth?

Edited June 16, 2016 by dimreepr

[tar]

depth of quirk

 

I have not been thusly admonished before.

but it is useful for the discussion to be thusly admonished because it still exhibits a desire on dimreeeper's part to isolate that quirk from his being

the point of hating what I fear is to let Phi know I would not be pleased with him taking my stuff so that he does not take it, knowing that it would displease me, if he did

[dimreepr]

You fear a future you can't possibly know and hates anyone who threatens that unknown future; try a different tack, tolerate those who threaten rather than apologies to the hated innocent.

[Phi for All]

 

No, but you can admire the depth of quirk.

 

It's difficult, because the same quirk also makes him think I'm talking about him when I talk about people with shadow yachts. Somehow, the quirk turns my implication that the wealthy should pay more in taxes into "I want your stuff, tar".

 

I long ago gave up on actually being understood.

[tar]

Phi,

 

I overthink stuff, and I take more resources from this Earth, in food and minerals, and water and wood and such than does the average human. I have driven over a million miles in my life and flown here and there on airplanes. I have exceeded and will exceed the equally portioned rations that a communist system would offer me. I have more space, more freedom, more stuff than the majority of the population of the Earth, that has less than me and have used fewer resources. The distance between me and the yacht guy is one of degree, not of a different kind.

 

If I am to be listed amongst the elite of the Earth, a member of the middle class of the richest nation on Earth, any desire to redistribute wealth would be not in my favor. You would be advocating using what I have in the manner of your choosing. My stuff is not your stuff to give out, and the same goes for the yacht guy's stuff. If you think you have rights to his stuff, you likewise think you have rights to my stuff. Hate him, and you hate me.

 

Regards, TAR

[dimreepr]

How many, equally deserving people did you, metaphorically, step on to get your stuff? And why does your rights take president over there's?

Edited June 16, 2016 by dimreepr

[tar]

And, in terms of being on a team. I am hated by anyone that hates the U.S. and thinks the U.S. is the Great Satan. The killer raged against the ways of Americans. My team. I suffer the hatred of the guy because I take and pay interest, because I tolerate gays, because I have statues of my , because I look at porn, because I smoked cigarettes, because I let my wife walk around by herself without covering her face and hair with makeup on...or whatever personal freedoms I allow and support and exercise and fight to maintain and protect, because I am an American. If I am hated because I support the Zionists and the gays, and Hollywood and Wall Street and Corporate America, I am hated because I am me.

dimreeper,

 

I have been a careful stepper. Always considering the other guy or girl's position. But in terms of deserving, I am one of those who figures you sleep in the bed you make. I deserve what I have because I studied and worked and served and saved and maintained and strived to make it so. My house was not mine, before I bought it. But once I bought it, I deserved it, and I did not step on anybody to get it. I paid a fair price, and continue to pay high taxes and interest and such. I deserve it, because I earned it. Equally deserving people have also earned what they have. Those that have less did not earn as much, or squandered their income on drugs or sex or jewelry or something.

 

What is your criteria for being deserving of something that belongs to someone else?

 

Regards, TAR

[dimreepr]

Well I tolerate you despite your hatred/quirks.

[tar]

in pure economic philosophical terms one has to create value, do something of value for someone else, in order to get something of value in return

 

nobody deserves getting something of value for nothing

[Phi for All]

Phi,

 

I overthink stuff, and I take more resources from this Earth, in food and minerals, and water and wood and such than does the average human. I have driven over a million miles in my life and flown here and there on airplanes. I have exceeded and will exceed the equally portioned rations that a communist system would offer me. I have more space, more freedom, more stuff than the majority of the population of the Earth, that has less than me and have used fewer resources. The distance between me and the yacht guy is one of degree, not of a different kind.

 

If I am to be listed amongst the elite of the Earth, a member of the middle class of the richest nation on Earth, any desire to redistribute wealth would be not in my favor. You would be advocating using what I have in the manner of your choosing. My stuff is not your stuff to give out, and the same goes for the yacht guy's stuff. If you think you have rights to his stuff, you likewise think you have rights to my stuff. Hate him, and you hate me.

 

Regards, TAR

 

OK, good luck with this. Make it about hating the people, instead of about fixing a broken system. It's a nice strawman, and you seem to love it a lot. With diligent maintenance and perseverance of the kind you've shown, you should be able to keep it going as long as you need it.

 

Meanwhile, I'll still assert that taxing wealth above a certain uber level is necessary and productive, and together with changes in business that favor the middle class workers, our economy could be more well-rounded, with less disparity and more prosperity. And it's hard to hate when things are going really well.

 

Let tar and people like him think it means we're coming for their stuff, instead of simply adjusting our economy to a more Eisenhower-era, prosperous approach to being American. Maybe tar can find us some links to all the stories about Ike taking away middle class stuff from citizens like him back in the day. There must be something behind this inordinate fear that higher taxes on the uber-wealthy will mean he loses his stuff.

[tar]

dimreeper,

 

well thanks, I think

 

But do I exhibit qualities that you wish to eliminate from your being?

 

Regards, TAR

Phi,

 

Higher taxes on the uber wealthy means the uber wealthy lose their stuff. Stuff they accumulated by working, or providing a rare skill or talent, or taking a risk, or having a good idea or otherwise providing value to others. They have already given to society. You want to take twice.

 

Regards, TAR

[dimreepr]

But do I exhibit qualities that you wish to eliminate from your being?

 

 

Nope, because one day you may be right.

[Phi for All]

in pure economic philosophical terms one has to create value, do something of value for someone else, in order to get something of value in return

 

nobody deserves getting something of value for nothing

 

Really?!

 

For nothing, I want you to have access to food, shelter, and clothing if you need them. For nothing, I want you to be treated with respect and dignity simply for being a human, second for being a citizen of my country. For nothing, I grant you the protections offered by the Constitution that governs us. For absolutely nothing on your part, I want you to have the best opportunity to be part of this society, and contribute to it as much as your prosperity allows you to.

 

And if the person with the shadow yacht today loses it all tomorrow, I want them to have access to the same things I offer you. Does that sound like hate?

[tar]

anybody's fair share, under any system would be a 10th of their income

 

what one does with the other 90 percent is not your business

 

if some consume and some save, and at the end of the day I have a dollar and you a dime, you don't deserve another dime from me and me a penny from you

[Phi for All]

anybody's fair share, under any system would be a 10th of their income

 

what one does with the other 90 percent is not your business

 

if some consume and some save, and at the end of the day I have a dollar and you a dime, you don't deserve another dime from me and me a penny from you

 

Well, that's just unworkable bullshit that sounds good to you, and has zero historical support. And I can point to our current woes with tons of evidence that much of it is because of stupid, unprecedented amounts of wealth disparity. Or ignoring stupid, unprecedented amounts of carbon in our air. Or supporting corporate interests that continue to post stupid, unprecedented profits while our infrastructure crumbles as they dodge their fair share of taxes.

 

I think your perspective supports hate and haters. I think we need to fix the system, and leave the hate for people out of it. I don't hate anybody, and I think accusing people of it is partially a distraction.

[tar]

but phi, the constitution asks one to pledge their honor and their wealth to the nation

 

Americans that have already pledged their honor and wealth have given already something fully valuable

 

They receive the protection of the rest of us for this pledge.

 

There was never a bargain that stated, you live and rest of us will feed and cloth you, pay for your education, and your house and your medical care...that is everything.

 

You are suggesting one gets everything just for being alive? No You have to make the pledge, and in return you get life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The steak sandwich, and the apartment, and the car and the Aspirin tablet you will have to earn on your own.

I have road grit in the right of way next to my lawn. The road sweeper has not come yet to clean it up. I usually sweep it up myself but did not do it this year because I had a knee replacement and am not yet good with a heavy wheelbarrow load.

 

If I want that grit taken up, my choices are to pay more taxes for more road sweeping machines and drivers, pay somebody to pick it up, or pick it up myself.