Hate and hating the hater.

[tar]

Let's imagine two restaurants, same food, same quality, same nice tables and decorations, same service, same handsome waiters, except A pays workers 30 dollars an hour and gives full health care benefits, family leave, and needs to charge 60 dollars for a meal to pay the rent, buy the food, and pay the workers to break even . B pays workers 15 an hour, only contributes legal minimum to health care costs, and can pay the rent, buy the food, pay the workers and break even charging 30 dollars a meal.

 

Which restaurant goes out of business first? Which workers will be better off when the other place goes out of business?

dimreeper,

 

Well I have come here for validation. I think that is, to the thread topic, an important consideration.

 

We, I am convinced, look to each other for validation. Look for the pat on the back, look to act and think and talk in the manner that will engender praise and confidence and support and love.

 

Look for a team and look to be a good team member. Follow the rules, get strong and fast, run down the field and win for the team, or block and tackle to the point where your team scores more than the other team.

 

As an American I take the heat for stuff America takes the heat for, and expect validation from my countrymen for following the rules, making the place work, looking out for my brother and living the American dream.

 

Yet I just get Phi's pity and your tolerance.

 

What is it that I am exhibiting that you so strongly want out of your being?

 

Regards, TAR

[dimreepr]

Let's imagine two restaurants, same food, same quality, same nice tables and decorations, same service, same handsome waiters, except A pays workers 30 dollars an hour and gives full health care benefits, family leave, and needs to charge 60 dollars for a meal to pay the rent, buy the food, and pay the workers to break even . B pays workers 15 an hour, only contributes legal minimum to health care costs, and can pay the rent, buy the food, pay the workers and break even charging 30 dollars a meal.

 

Which restaurant goes out of business first? Which workers will be better off when the other place goes out of business?

dimreeper,

 

Well I have come here for validation. I think that is, to the thread topic, an important consideration.

 

We, I am convinced, look to each other for validation. Look for the pat on the back, look to act and think and talk in the manner that will engender praise and confidence and support and love.

 

Look for a team and look to be a good team member. Follow the rules, get strong and fast, run down the field and win for the team, or block and tackle to the point where your team scores more than the other team.

 

As an American I take the heat for stuff America takes the heat for, and expect validation from my countrymen for following the rules, making the place work, looking out for my brother and living the American dream.

 

Yet I just get Phi's pity and your tolerance.

 

What is it that I am exhibiting that you so strongly want out of your being?

 

Regards, TAR

 

 

If by that you mean which restaurant gets to say, na na na na na, yep you’re right and that hatred would be happy to see you suffer; remove the hatred/fear and the successful restaurant feeds the other (because they can).

[tar]

besides I already don't like the idea of being taken care of, and not being the one taking care of the place

 

already, after I quit my job and did not find another I feel less of a man, less like I am doing my part

 

I lost some identity when I was no longer an employee of a company I worked for for 30 years.

 

When I run out of savings, and my pension and soc security does not pay passage then indeed I will be an object of your pity and might require a helping hand.

 

I expect you will, at that point extend yours.

but which one worked?

the 60 an hour place or the 30 an hour place?

Edited June 18, 2016 by tar

[dimreepr]

but which one worked?

the 60 an hour place or the 30 an hour place?

 

 

The place that had most fun.

besides I already don't like the idea of being taken care of, and not being the one taking care of the place

 

already, after I quit my job and did not find another I feel less of a man, less like I am doing my part

 

I lost some identity when I was no longer an employee of a company I worked for for 30 years.

 

When I run out of savings, and my pension and soc security does not pay passage then indeed I will be an object of your pity and might require a helping hand.

 

 

The point is, you required a helping hand from the start of your career or did you give you the job?

[tar]

I obviously needed the company to be there to have an interview and prove I would be a valuable hire.

 

After I got laid off several years back, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to arrange my life to offer people some good or service of value for which they would pay me. It is not easy. Corporations have figured a way, and need folks to carry out their plan, sell and support their goods and services. Their shareholders are the ones for whom I was working. The shareholders gave me the opportunity. Odd that you would have me remember how important the owners were to my survival, and how quickly Phi demonizes the same folk that gave me my livelihood

Edited June 18, 2016 by tar

[dimreepr]

I obviously needed the company to be there to have an interview and prove I would be a valuable hire.

 

 

And if you aren’t?

[tar]

Now that I am 62 I am not as valuable a hire. I am slower, dimmer, less energetic and less fun than I used to be and a little emotional. I yield to younger more needy folk who have to earn a living to start a family and build a home. Employers would rather hire a 24 year old, that will work 24 hours a day for 24K, than hire a 62 year old that needs a nap after lunch, and could get the 24K or close to it, by just retiring.

Edited June 18, 2016 by tar

[Phi for All]

Odd that you would have me remember how important the owners were to my survival, and how quickly Phi demonizes the same folk that gave me my livelihood

 

I understand that it would probably shatter your worldview to actually understand where I'm coming from. I get that you have to make me seem a certain way in order for your weird devotion to a failing process to make sense even to you. It must make you feel better, so I guess that's OK.

 

But I'll still maintain that much of the reason for all the hate lately is because we've gotten our society out of balance. People haven't changed that drastically, but many other things that influence people have.

 

Capitalism isn't something I demonize. It's a good ideology for us when we need to make a profit and everyone is happy with the deals they get. Fair market practices should always be paramount, that's how capitalism stays healthy for everyone. But it's not automatically going to work well, it has to be well regulated, like anything else.

 

Socialism should be used when profit isn't the motive, when the goods or services provided are the priority. Socialism helps us get the most bang for our buck when it comes to things that help society stay healthy. There should be no citizen who can't get help when needed in the wealthiest country in the world.

 

I also keep wondering why you avoid my point about the 90% tax rate for income in excess of a reasonable cap. You always strawman about me coming for your stuff, or resenting the rich man, when I'm clearly talking about EXACTLY the kind of tax structure we had right after WWII, where some of the ultra-high earnings that almost never get circulated back into the economy are taxed to encourage growth instead of hoarding.

 

Let me ask you this hypothetical question, and please don't ramble on. What would you do if you saw someone deliberately push a person down the stairs? Would you call the police, demand justice, help ensure restitution was made? Now, what would you do if you found out someone was putting a little bit of poison in a person's food, killing them slowly over time? Would you do the same thing, call the police, demand justice, help ensure restitution was made? So when we find out that corporate America has been shaving wages, withholding benefits, lying about how well the company was doing, and in general manipulating to pay workers less and the shareholders more, for the last 60 years, why do you say it's class warfare, or hate, or that I'm demonizing capitalism? Is this the way you think capitalism is supposed to work? You're 62?

[tar]

Sure I would call the police if I saw a crime being committed (if not stop the crime if I could.) I once commented on my boss having two glasses of wine at lunch and not my intention, but soon he was relieved of the post.

 

But if you are seeing a business operating unfairly you should report it to the BBB or if you are seeing stock fraud or insider trading report it to the SEC, or if you see a crime in the works report it to the police or FBI. We already are watching each other, and expecting ethical behavior.

 

If however you just think somebody is getting paid too much, work your way on to the board of directors and reduce their pay.

 

What you call hoarding I call saving, or capital accumulation. You can't build any big projects without floating a bond. If there is nobody with stored value there would be nobody to loan money for you to buy your home, or car, or borrow money for your kid's college or for your town to put a new roof on the school.

 

Bottom line, if you see a crime being committed, report it to the authorities. Don't wait for me.

 

Regards, TAR

Were you aware that the shareholders elect the board of directors, to look out for their interests?

Were you aware that a large portion of our working population owns stocks and bond either directly or through their 401Ks or pension funds?

 

In other words, the greedy corporations are being greedy on your behalf, since you are one of the owners.

 

Companies were not formed to take care of the workers. The workers are supposed to take care of the company, and get paid for their efforts.

same idea was expressed by JFK

 

Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country.

Edited June 18, 2016 by tar

[dimreepr]

tar:

 

Do you know that you have yet to provide any sort of reasonable argument?

 

You instead, in almost every post, just reiterate your OP; I’m going to notch this as a win unless you actually address several points, I and others have raised that show your premise to be flawed.

Edited June 19, 2016 by dimreepr

[tar]

dimreeper,

 

Notch it as a win, if you wish.

 

You never addressed the OP, just started in on the hatred of the conservatives.

 

Never noticing of course that you were showing distaste toward conservatives.

 

Interesting to me that it is wrong to depreciate one because of their race, sex or religion, but be a white anglo saxon protestant male, and you are automatically a hater.

 

So take your win. You don't want to talk about the psychology of hate. You want to disparage white male privledge, white male greed, white male hatred and bigotry and homophobia or whatever.

 

You use me like a scapegoat. I don't want this thread to be about politics. I want it to be about hate and why we hate and what we are really doing when we hate. How we choose up sides internally and put people on this or that side of the room.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited June 20, 2016 by tar

[tar]

or to make it worse, add age discrimination and hatred of certain nationalities wrong to do, but be an old white male heterosexual anglo saxon protestant American and geez you have 7 strikes against you from the get go

you are out twice and a third as soon as you get in the batter's box

as far as being labeled a hater goes

and that is before you say a word just based on you age, race, sex, sexual orientation, ethnic background, religion and nationality

Edited June 20, 2016 by tar

[dimreepr]

dimreeper,

 

You use me like a scapegoat. I don't want this thread to be about politics. I want it to be about hate and why we hate and what we are really doing when we hate. How we choose up sides internally and put people on this or that side of the room.

 

Regards, TAR

 

 

You’re missing the point, there’s no need to hate anyone unless you’re physically fighting them (that’s why hatred evolved in people), then it’s very useful.

 

So unless you’re being attacked, tolerance of those on the other side of the room is the only logical stance to adopt; just because they’re on that side they still have good ideas from time to time and if you hate them you hate the idea and learn absolutely nothing, however good the idea, tolerance gives you the chance.

dimreeper,

 

You never addressed the OP, just started in on the hatred of the conservatives.

 

Never noticing of course that you were showing distaste toward conservatives.

 

Interesting to me that it is wrong to depreciate one because of their race, sex or religion, but be a white anglo saxon protestant male, and you are automatically a hater.

 

So take your win. You don't want to talk about the psychology of hate. You want to disparage white male privledge, white male greed, white male hatred and bigotry and homophobia or whatever.

 

Regards, TAR

 

 

You’ll have to back this up, please quote the post and/or phrase.

Edited June 20, 2016 by dimreepr

[tar]

dimreeper,

 

I can't back it up simply, because what I am backing up is your attitude, that I need to be more tolerant and less hateful.

 

I don't know where you got this stance. That is your internal account balance that is being kept.

 

Since you think I keep missing the point, and your point is that I need to be more tolerant and less hateful, backing up is in your court, since you need to tell me which of my actions and statements and stories, indicate to you, that I am intolerant and hateful.

 

Regards, TAR

so far all we have is that I am a 62 year old white maie WASP, that is married with two children, has served in the Army, has worked in corporate America for 30 or 40 years, lives in the suburbs and is on soc. security, was registered Democrat when in a Democrat area and is now registered Republican, is middle of the road on many issues, looking at various conflicts from the point of view of all players, and has a grudge, a big time grudge against the people and ideology that took down the world trade towers and flight 83 and the pentagon on 9/11. A strong believer in tolerance and understanding, reason and finding workable solutions to all problems. Where these things point out to you that I hate, women, hate blacks, hate gays, or hate anybody other than the enemy I am fighting, ISIS, Al Queda, and any other group or nation looking to kill Americans, and wheresomething points out to you that I need to be more tolerant, is something that you need to describe to me, and it has nothing to do with politics. If you have proof that conservatives are hateful and progressives are loving, then this proof is falsified as soon as a progressive hates a hater.

Edited June 20, 2016 by tar

[dimreepr]

dimreeper,

 

Since you think I keep missing the point, and your point is that I need to be more tolerant and less hateful, backing up is in your court, since you need to tell me which of my actions and statements and stories, indicate to you, that I am intolerant and hateful.

 

 

The OP and all your other posts.

[tar]

or a conservative loves another human

[dimreepr]

Or, a human loves another human and tolerates the rest, if they don't attack.

Edited June 20, 2016 by dimreepr

[tar]

dimreeper,

 

OK then, what do you think I was asking in the OP?

 

Who or what are you assuming I was showing hatred toward in the OP, who or what do you figure I was calling the hated and who or what do you figure I was hating?

 

My whole consideration is that if I hate the killer in Orlando and you hate the killer in Orlando, why do people search for enemies to hate within the family, when it is so obvious that the enemy is coming from outside the family.

 

I raised the question in the psychology section, because I sense that some of the things we hate, are things we wish to push under the rug within our own psyches. Things like the potential homosexual feelings in the killer himself. Things like guilt at dropping bombs on people's houses in the name of fighting hate.

 

There is an ideological war that is going on in the world today. Many of them. Syria and Assad and the Russians and the Iranians and ISIL and the Caliph in Raqqa all "against" the moderate democratic secular minded "rebels" we as America, back to fight Assad and ISIS both. The other day the Russians dropped cluster bombs on the Rebels we support. I am just trying to figure out what the right thing to do about it, is. Declare war on Syria and Iran and Russia and the Islamic State? Establish a no fly zone and shoot down Russian Bombers? Where does our hatred of ISIS and Hatred of the human rights abuses of Assad, look like love?

 

 

 

Regards, TAR

and where does turning the other cheek and tolerating injustice and hatred turn into allowing yourself to be defeated

Edited June 20, 2016 by tar

[dimreepr]

dimreeper,

 

OK then, what do you think I was asking in the OP?

 

 

The fact that you asked the question and the phrasing you used indicates to me that either you hate and want to know why or you’re looking for an excuse to hate those you fear.

[tar]

OK, and you are immune? How?

[dimreepr]

Tolerance.

[tar]

tolerant of ISIS?

Just saw a commentator talking about the redacted transcript from the killing say that there was nothing the shooter said that was homophobic and it was all about revenge for America bombing his people, and fighting for Allah. The commentator suggested the Administration, which billed the shooting as a hate crime was down playing the ideologic rhetoric and redacting it, as to not emphasize the fact that it does not appear to be a hate crime, and to not focus attention on the fact that we have bombed this guy's people.

Edited June 20, 2016 by tar

[dimreepr]

How does your hate make a difference to them?

[tar]

to ISIS?

 

They regularly have their finances attacked by me, their leadership, we blow up their stuff and kill their fighters.

 

If I was to be tolerant toward them, I would allow them to whip women for wearing makeup, I would turn my back when they threw gays off of buildings, I would allow them to kidnap young women and use them as sex slaves, I would allow them to steal all the valuables in a town to pay their fighters, I would tolerate their justice and excuse their cutting off the heads of journalists, I would tolerate their cutting of the clitoris of a female to keep them from pleasure in sex, and I would say "well they are just being themselves" when they destroy art and culture and monuments from the past.

 

How to you intend on having this situation resolve itself with tolerance? Just let the whole area of the middle east and north Africa become part of the Caliphate, and let the Great Satan be destroyed?

 

Regards, TAR

[dimreepr]

to ISIS?

 

They regularly have their finances attacked by me, their leadership, we blow up their stuff and kill their fighters.

 

If I was to be tolerant toward them, I would allow them to whip women for wearing makeup, I would turn my back when they threw gays off of buildings, I would allow them to kidnap young women and use them as sex slaves, I would allow them to steal all the valuables in a town to pay their fighters, I would tolerate their justice and excuse their cutting off the heads of journalists, I would tolerate their cutting of the clitoris of a female to keep them from pleasure in sex, and I would say "well they are just being themselves" when they destroy art and culture and monuments from the past.

 

How to you intend on having this situation resolve itself with tolerance? Just let the whole area of the middle east and north Africa become part of the Caliphate, and let the Great Satan be destroyed?

 

Regards, TAR

 

 

All this shows is that you don't understand my point or there's.