Bio-climatic Comparisons

[B. John Jones]

Logical partitions in modern science quite often sadden me, by reason of the following example:

 

The dynamics of the earth's system/subsystems of evaporation, condensation and precipitation, seem very equitable, or comparable at the very least, to the dynamics of the transport system/subsystems into and out of cells from a biological view. Clouds in the local atmosphere serve 2 vital regulating purposes from a view considerate of the earth's climate: 1) they reflect heat energy from the sun. 2) they help to retain heat energy radiated from the earth (esp. at night). http://water.usgs.gov/edu/watercyclecondensation.htmlThese clouds seem to demonstrate a layer of a model of intelligence comparable to layers of the intelligence intrinsic in cell membranes.

 

I'm forced into "Speculations" due to the fractured nature of modern science (biology being segregated from geology, etc.), whereas there is no discipline of the "integrated sciences" class.

Edited June 14, 2016 by B. John Jones

[Raider5678]

Ok, I lost you here. What's your problem?

[B. John Jones]

Logical partitions in modern science quite often sadden me, by reason of the following example:

 

The dynamics of the earth's system/subsystems of evaporation, condensation and precipitation, seem very equitable, or comparable at the very least, to the dynamics of the transport system/subsystems into and out of cells from a biological view. Clouds in the local atmosphere serve 2 vital regulating purposes from a view considerate of the earth's climate: 1) they reflect heat energy from the sun. 2) they help to retain heat energy radiated from the earth (esp. at night). http://water.usgs.gov/edu/watercyclecondensation.htmlThese clouds seem to demonstrate a layer of a model of intelligence comparable to layers of the intelligence intrinsic in cell membranes.

 

I'm forced into "Speculations" due to the fractured nature of modern science (biology being segregated from geology, etc.), whereas there is no discipline of the "integrated sciences" class.

 

 

Ok, I lost you here. What's your problem?

 

I'm simply somewhat dismayed that scientists are not drawing logical comparisons between, for example, processes of cell membranes (biology) and processes including evaporation, condensation and precipitation (climatology); or comparisons between the world of molecular substances and their motions (chemistry, physics, biology, etc.) and the substances and motions of what I tend to call satellites (astronomy). All of this is very similar and we can learn more richly (in my view) when comparing the classes of science one with the other (comparing a biological cell, for example, to an ecosystem including its atmospheres).

Edited June 14, 2016 by B. John Jones

[Raider5678]

Ok. Some things aren't connected, so we don't bother drawing connections between them. Hence, coincidence.

[swansont]

How would you test your hypothesis that clouds have intelligence, and what evidence can you present that it's true? What is the mechanism by which water vapor condensed on dust can process information?

[Strange]

I'm simply somewhat dismayed that scientists are not drawing logical comparisons between, for example, processes of cell membranes (biology) and processes including evaporation, condensation and precipitation (climatology); or comparisons between the world of molecular substances and their motions (chemistry, physics, biology, etc.) and the substances and motions of what I tend to call satellites (astronomy). All of this is very similar and we can learn more richly (in my view) when comparing the classes of science one with the other (comparing a biological cell, for example, to an ecosystem including its atmospheres).

 

 

Please give a specific example of something that can be discovered from these comparisons.

 

(Note that the model of electrons orbiting the nucleus of an atom can be compared to satellites around planets. But it is also wrong. So the comparison is not very useful.)

I'm forced into "Speculations" due to the fractured nature of modern science (biology being segregated from geology, etc.), whereas there is no discipline of the "integrated sciences" class.

 

There is a large amount of multi-disciplinary research. But you would need to show that something useful could come from it.

[B. John Jones]

How would you test your hypothesis that clouds have intelligence, and what evidence can you present that it's true? What is the mechanism by which water vapor condensed on dust can process information?

 

If I were going to test it, I would observe the motions of clouds to see if they tend to move in patterns that promote cooling in regions where such cooling and moisture are required to preserve or to comfort an ecology. Evidence is seen in that natural rain forests, which tend to require defense (due to industry for example), take lots of rain. The mechanism by which water collecting on dust processes information is that mechanism, by which H20 binds to and finds transport with dust particles, which, when concentrated, tend to move towards regions requiring precipitation for such things as defense, comfort, propagation, or the like, if such suggested motions hold true. The voices of creatures might be considered communication with those chemical substances involved in this mechanism.

This was edited so to add moisture to cooling as an effect, and to add transport to binding on dust particles. Fewer than 2 minutes ago.

Edited June 15, 2016 by B. John Jones

[fredreload]

I studied a bit about membrane transport, it's ions balances between the inside and outside of the cell is maintained by active pumps powered by ATP. I came across this while looking into prosthetics, but it is how nerve transport signals

Edited June 15, 2016 by fredreload

[CharonY]

Actually active transport is only required to create an imbalance. Otherwise you can just use porins and let diffusion take over. It is not clear to me how that relates to anything in OP. But, to be fair the OP is quite confused as well as it seems to imply that water cycles are not controlled by physical phenomena but somehow by clouds sensing where they are needed. This why we do not have deserts, I presume.

[Bignose]

This why we do not have deserts, I presume.

Nope. Clouds are just jerks. Or Cali pissed them off about something. Maybe an Oscar snub?

Edited June 15, 2016 by Bignose

[ajb]

Forgetting the intelligence thing for a moment, many seemingly different phenomena can be related in the sense that the same or similar mathematics is needed to describe them. This is the power of physics, it is universal and applies to everything.

 

Thus, it is not true that scientists from different branches have not had some crossover of ideas; this is most evident to me across different branches of mathematics and physics. Anyway, even if one can draw some ideas from biology and apply them to climate physics, proposing that clouds are alive and have intelligence is rather daft.

Edited June 15, 2016 by ajb

[Strange]

I'm forced into "Speculations" due to the fractured nature of modern science (biology being segregated from geology, etc.), whereas there is no discipline of the "integrated sciences" class.

 

 

This seems to be yet another example of you not really understanding how science works.

 

For example, the relationships between biology, geology, climate, sociology and economics (and probably other disciplines) is covered in ecology.

[imatfaal]

Actually there is already a huge amount of cross fertilization in the sciences - to be honest science is almost defined by the group method of working. It has been many years since any new science was predicated solely on the work of one man - we build upon the work of others and quite often those others are in different disciplines although more often different sub-disciplines of the same overall area.

[Strange]

It applies in engineering too, where we make use of things like biomimetics and genetic algorithms (which work, despite the scepticism of some about the existence of evolution!)

[swansont]

 

If I were going to test it, I would observe the motions of clouds to see if they tend to move in patterns that promote cooling in regions where such cooling and moisture are required to preserve or to comfort an ecology. Evidence is seen in that natural rain forests, which tend to require defense (due to industry for example), take lots of rain. The mechanism by which water collecting on dust processes information is that mechanism, by which H20 binds to and finds transport with dust particles, which, when concentrated, tend to move towards regions requiring precipitation for such things as defense, comfort, propagation, or the like, if such suggested motions hold true. The voices of creatures might be considered communication with those chemical substances involved in this mechanism.

This was edited so to add moisture to cooling as an effect, and to add transport to binding on dust particles. Fewer than 2 minutes ago.

 

 

Maybe they were called rain forests because it was already noted that it rains a lot. i.e. before industry came in. Meaning the rain is not a defense against any such thing. (and by maybe I mean of course they were)

 

We have plenty of areas that have droughts (currently California is an example), and places that get too much rain (Houston, for example, has seen flooding recently). Do you have a model that would predict that, using this purported intelligence?

[B. John Jones]

@ swansont:

Defense being the sole cause for rain clouds finding their way to the rain forests is not the case I'm making. Other factors given, even preceding the one you single out, are primarily preserving (defensively for example) and comforting an ecology--defense being an example. And by "industry" I'm including the first "primitive" communities who began building villages and towns.

 

As far as such irregularities in cloud and precipitation patterns, such as in disasters, are concerned, I think that the rain clouds would be at least as prone to error as human beings are--if you must assume that willful judgment/decision by rain clouds is my intent here (any more than willful decisions by the cell membranes would be).

Edited June 15, 2016 by B. John Jones

[swansont]

@ swansont:

Defense being the sole cause for rain clouds finding their way to the rain forests is not the case I'm making. Other factors given, even preceding the one you single out, are primarily preserving (defensively for example) and comforting an ecology--defense being an example. And by "industry" I'm including the first "primitive" communities who began building villages and towns.

 

As far as such irregularities in cloud and precipitation patterns, such as in disasters, are concerned, I think that the rain clouds would be at least as prone to error as human beings are--if you must assume that willful judgment/decision by rain clouds is my intent here (any more than willful decisions by the cell membranes would be).

 

 

IOW you have nothing to back up your assertion.

[imatfaal]

!

Moderator Note

 

B John Jones

 

OK - enough is enough

 

This is a science forum - you can tell by the name; this discussion space was not intended to allow expression of the memberships' wildest pipe-dreams.

 

This thread is nonsense and you have failed to reach the level we require for discussions in Speculations.

 

This thread is locked - you do not have permission to reintroduce the topic. If in the future you do have enough data to create a hypothesis or the beginnings of a model then PM a staff member with a request to reopen.