Gravity waves and the aether

[swansont]

 

It seems that there is some agreement that the "distribution of matter" or (electromagnetic) charges provides its own diffuse field in which waves are propagated,

 

 

No, there isn't.

[geordief]

No, there isn't.

I thought I had come across the idea that the electrical wave and the magnetic wave (or fields?) "piggy backed" each other and that this allowed them to move across a vacuum.

 

Is that what disarray is thinking of and was my description accurate?

Edited August 3, 2016 by geordief

[swansont]

I thought I had come across the idea that the electrical wave and the magnetic wave (or fields?) "piggy backed" each other and that this allowed them to move across a vacuum.

 

Is that what disarray is thinking of and was my description accurate?

 

 

I don't know what disarray was thinking, but yes, your description is accurate. A changing B induces an E, and a changing E induces a B. If these are sinusoidal, then the inducement is perpetual, i.e. EM waves.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

.

O.K.

 

I HAVE ( A MODEL ) . ( of the two/one AETHER/ MEDIUM for GRAVITY and ELECTRO- MAGNETISM ) that I believe would be capable of testing /is being tested in parts , as we speak .

 

I say ( two/one ) because they are radically different , but are inextricably linked , as the two make up

 

.------- the MEDIUM /AETHER for the WHOLE UNIVERSE . ---------

 

Both are necessary , and could be considered as ( ONE MEDIUM /AETHER ) .

 

:-

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Strange]

I HAVE ( A MODEL ) . ( of the two/one AETHER/ MEDIUM for GRAVITY and ELECTRO- MAGNETISM ) that I believe would be capable of testing /is being tested in parts , as we speak .

 

 

I look forward to seeing the detailed quantitative predictions from your model that we can compare with observation.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

I look forward to seeing the detailed quantitative predictions from your model that we can compare with observation.

Immediately , that I try to structure my MODEL , I hit an interesting , phenomenon . I am turning to the only source within reach, being as how the universe started 13,.. Odd billions years ago , and that much of the first hand data is , ( a) a long way away , (b) still in research in scientific institutes dotted about the globe ( c) things not yet descovered and understood . Etc . May or may not exist , or may exist but not in a form , that we can see or recognise .

 

This does provide quite an obstacle to producing , a complete and ' whole ' reliable model' .

 

In some ways this is highlighted in this subject of AETHER FOR GRAVITATIONAL WAVES . Or anything else for that matter that is not CURRENTLY SEEN or have immediate evidence. That is probably why many scientists , in the first instance , do not believe in , Aether, God , new matter, new phenomenon , to begin with ( which of course one can understand why , because of the current scientific method . However , using maths as a way to new unseen discoveries , does get over some of these problems ,but could leave great swathes neglected , because they are not immediately ' seen , mathematically

' as evidence.

 

In attempting to produce a complete model for ' THE AETHER FOR GRAVITATIONAL WAVES ' it would be necessary to piece together a line of connectivity from . The two colliding Black Holes , all the way through the ' known' routes through space time , to the LIGO detector data , a month or more ago . ( without using a present or non existent AETHER/ MEDIUM ) , primarily because the idea of Aeither/ medium is not an accepted path. IF for a moment , we were to ' suspend our disbelief ' we might open up an opportunity for an alternative explanation / path !

 

The bottom line of this reasoning is :- that one can only produce a continuous line of cause and effect , by piecing together , known previously proven ' sections of the path of cause and effect ' . As Aether / medium , is not yet PROVEN . l believe my only recourse in this matter is to PROVE One link of Aether / medium , in space . But To do that , I may have to use the proven , accepted path , outside of that one , individual link . ( a bit like checking an old fashion house fuse ) .i do not believe just saying an Aether / medium are not necessary , because we haven't seen one , is insufficient. Problem is I have to think up a way of doing that ?

 

I thought , that I could bring all the links together and prove the whole experiment , from beginning to end by collecting all the proven links. The problem still comes back to ' is there a medium or is there not ? While phenomenon of waves , travel across space . Which boils down to " is there nothing there ? Or is there ( a medium / aether) there ? To many scientists it does not seem to bother whether there is or is not ? To me it matters as I think it will open up interesting 'knock on's ' if it were proven a medium IS necessary for E.M. Waves , it might encourage the similar requirement for a Medium / AETHER for GRAVITATIONAL waves

'

I think the answer might be found in what actually ' a photon of EM WAVE , DOES ' and needs . Can it really self generate. ? Electric field collapses to produce a magnetic field , and vice versa , with No independent supportive help , How about interaction with a field, ELECTRIC FIELD MEDIUM ? After all the standard model shows up ' umpteen' particles with a small electric field , and spin , and more particles being descovered as we speak , what with Wimps, axions, wimpzilla, etc etc

 

Mike

 

It has to do with the goldfish in the bowl thinking he/she/it is drifting around in air or swimming in water ?

Either way the fish is having a good time ( but one is true the other false? ) one day it might think it could launch itself into space , and fly away to freedom . ( but the false answer would lead to death ! )

Edited August 4, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Strange]

Immediately , that I try to structure my MODEL , I hit an interesting , phenomenon . I am turning to the only source within reach, being as how the universe started 13,.. Odd billions years ago

 

That is according to a model that you think is inadequate because it doesn't include a medium for gravity.

 

Your new model may produce a different result for that question.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

That is according to a model that you think is inadequate because it doesn't include a medium for gravity.

 

Your new model may produce a different result for that question.

Goodness me , I can't go around saying that 'top scientist' models are not adequate . I will end up in 'concrete Wellington boots '

It's just this medium( is there isn't there) a medium for both gravity and Em waves. I have always had it as a " it does not sit easy on my mind " I can't let go of it . Its core to my very 'Radio ' being. Through life , through two universities , and now through the science forum discussions, I can't let go, it will not go away ! Shoot me , or do something ! Put me out of my misery . ...

 

......" I told them , there must be a medium" .... He was found completely demented ! walking into a dessert somewhere ! .....

 

Mike

[swansont]

However , using maths as a way to new unseen discoveries , does get over some of these problems ,but could leave great swathes neglected , because they are not immediately ' seen ' as evidence.

You have to have a model, or you have to have some kind of experimental result. You have neither.

 

i do not believe just saying an Aether / medium are not necessary , because we haven't seen one , is insufficient. Problem is I have to think up a way of doing that ?

It's more than that, though. We have a working model that does not require one, and we have experimental evidence that shows the previously proposed aether can't exist. So you need evidence or a model, and it has to be different from what has already been shown not to work.

[imatfaal]

and for crying out loud it's Gravitational Waves - not Gravity Waves (unless you are on another tangent - gravity waves are a liminal fluid effect and nothing to do with Gravitational Waves)

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

.

and for crying out loud it's Gravitational Waves - not Gravity Waves (unless you are on another tangent - gravity waves are a liminal fluid effect and nothing to do with Gravitational Waves)

.

Sorry, it's just the title of the thread is " Gravity Waves and the Aether"

 

It's more than that, though. We have a working model that does not require one, and we have experimental evidence that shows the previously proposed aether can't exist. .

.

In the case of light , radio waves and photons you say are working as evidence . Without an aether/medium .

 

THIS IS MY MODEL FOR PHOTON TRAVEL IN DARK ENERGY IN THE UNIVERSE ( WITH AETHER/ MEDIUM

 

I would say to that. The transmission is occuring BECAUSE there is a medium / aether. NOT because there is not an Aether . The aether in this case consists of the atomic sized , granular , electro magnetic field composed of Dark Energy charged particles spread out across three dimensional space . Furthermore I would say , the photon or em packet does not travel anywhere . It mearly interacts with the adjacent , Electro magnetic field , which is the Aether , and so on and so on , in a chain across the medium / aether. The first photon does not go anywhere , it mearly transfers its energy as a plane wave across the medium in a strait path a photon width cross section . This photon wide packet of energy only deviates from its straight path under a further influence of another electro magnetic field or gravitational field .

 

THIS IS MY MODEL FOR GRAVITATIONAL WAVES TRAVEL IN DARK MATTER IN THE UNIVERSE

 

At a completely different scale ( not the atomic scale ) but at ' neutrino' sized scale . The gravitational wave travels through the different scale Aether . This aether is provided by the different distribution of Dark Matter particles , WIMPS, AXIONS, ZILLA WIMP ( also possibly MIRROR PARTICLES , BOSONS , etc ) , across space in the configuration previously illustrated. It's attenuation and spread through the galaxies and universe may be subject to different criteria ( like dispersion and attenuation ) compared to photons and other electro magnetic waves .

 

Mike

Edited August 4, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

That's not a model, Mike. That's a story. There's nothing testable presented. No math, no details of the interactions.

[MigL]

If your medium ( new aether ) is composed of granular atomic or neutrino sized particles, how do adjacent particles interact ?

 

Is there a field or wave that allows for this interaction ?

And if so, what is the medium for this interaction?

 

Since the adjacent particles of this granular aether have some separation, according to your thinking, another medium is needed between them to allow for this interaction.

 

Your model is just digging a deeper hole.

[imatfaal]

!

Moderator Note

 

disarray

 

1. Please do not hijack - the admittedly already nebulous - topic.

2. Do not post speculative material in the main fora

3. I have split your post off to a new thread in Speculations

 

Thanks. Do not respond to this moderation within the thread.

 

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

A brief introduction to the atomic sized particles and their charge , can give some insight into the sort of charge that is available in normal matter .

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model

 

 

 

Some of the charge shown here could relate to building up an electro magnetic medium , which could assist in building up a field suitable for Photon propagation .

 

However if we are to consider Dark Energy as a source of charge , we may need to look further afield .

Edited August 5, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

A brief introduction to the atomic sized particles and their charge , can give some insight into the sort of charge that is available in normal matter .

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model

 

image.png

 

However if we are to consider Dark Energy as a source of charge , we may need to look further afield .

 

 

I think everybody giving you feedback is already aware of the standard model. You keep posting material as if you expect it to be new to us.

 

If you are going to claim dark energy as a source of charge, then you have opened up a whole new chapter of speculations, for which you have no model and no evidence.

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

I think everybody giving you feedback is already aware of the standard model. You keep posting material as if you expect it to be new to us.

 

If you are going to claim dark energy as a source of charge, then you have opened up a whole new chapter of speculations, for which you have no model and no evidence.

Some research has been accomplished into dark energy .

 

http://hetdex.org/dark_energy/what_is_it/new_physics.php

 

 

Whether exotic matter or normal matter it is quite conceivable , that a host of identicle charge + particles could arrange themselves in space so as to remain equi spaced in three dimensions . As a lattice .

 

In my model I was suggesting , a photon approaching could interact with the charged lattice . In so doing the photon would 'interact ' its energy into the lattice or medium / aether as a quantum of energy . This process would be repeated , over and over, and over until it has reached its destination at the end of its trajectory . It could be that this traversing the lattice/ medium/ aether might be construed as a photon traveling through the lattice , as if a particle. I rather think , this is more like a quantised wave , moves through the medium , not as a particle , but as a WAVE , THROUGH THE MEDIUM /AETHER .

 

++++++++++++

++++++++++++

++++++++++++

++++++++++++

 

For this matrix to be set up from one end of space to the other requires a Hugh amount of energy . This fits the description given the quantity of energy in DARK ENERGY .

 

 

Mike

Edited August 5, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[swansont]

Some research has been accomplished into dark energy .

 

http://hetdex.org/dark_energy/what_is_it/new_physics.php

 

 

 

This is not a rebuttal to what I said.

[MigL]

Any field that can be quantized will have an associated particle, Mike.

That does not mean that the field is composed of those particles, nor does it need to 'hang' from them.

 

The facts still remain, that anything which could be considered an aether, a medium for the propagation of EM and gravitational waves, will need to have some pretty fantastical properties. Such properties will make it undetectable.

The current best theory we have, GR, has no need for this medium or aether; it has been well tested and its limits explored for the last century. That makes the aether un-needed.

When you combine the two, undetectable and un-needed, most people stop looking.

You haven't got a case of OCD, have you Mike ?

Edited August 5, 2016 by MigL

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Any field that can be quantized will have an associated particle, Mike.

That does not mean that the field is composed of those particles, nor does it need to 'hang' from them.

 

The facts still remain, that anything which could be considered an aether, a medium for the propagation of EM and gravitational waves, will need to have some pretty fantastical properties. Such properties will make it undetectable.

The current best theory we have, GR, has no need for this medium or aether; it has been well tested and its limits explored for the last century. That makes the aether un-needed.

When you combine the two, undetectable and un-needed, most people stop looking.

You haven't got a case of OCD, have you Mike ?

.

As regards the Medium / Aether for GRAVITATIONAL WAVES .

I beleive this to be a separate thing .

I need to drop down in size by a huge scale . In this case we are moving down in so many orders of magnitude , any waves/particles will be practically invisible unless you are one of these DARK MATTER particles . Whether AXIONS , WIMPS, WIMP ZILLA . MIRROR PARTICLES. Or other yet not descovered candidates for Dark Matter . Again , I am proposing these are acting as a MEDIUM /GUIDE for any GRAVITATIONAL WAVES in ordinary matter . So the ordinary matter acts in the way we understand it . But when it comes to GRAVITATIONAL WAVES , I am proposing these waves travel through the medium suggested. This is making all the more sense, with this Wave - Particle Duality that seems to be rearing its head , all over the place . It was one thing to think of particles , floating around freely without a container of any sort , but now it is becoming waves all over . Waves just can't exist without a medium to wave about in !

 

 

Mike

Edited August 5, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[Mike Smith Cosmos]

Somewhere, out there , in some of your recent comments, someone said something , that made me sit up with a bump!

I thought to myself I must go back and read that again , but could not find it ?

 

It was something like ..." When you are dealing with field theory .. Particles and waves ... Blurr! ..... ". Or something like that .

 

I never did find it ? Did I dream it , imagine it ? But therein might lay a solution .

 

Because if that is what was said , ? Then the idea of a wave , travelling very , very , fast ( say in the sea ) and hitting me standing up to my waist in water with my eyes closed , suddenly being hit by a very fast wave , ?..I would be hard pushed ( pardon the pun ) , to distinguishing whether I had been hit by a ' heavy floating log ' or a 'large fast sea wave ? '

 

Wave - particle . Is this whole issue about semantics ( the difference in the meaning of Words ? ) or for that matter ( the difference in the meaning of Reality ? ) The whole issue of Shrohniger 's cat, wave particle duality, etc may possibly be at the root of this issue ?

 

Was this what was said ?

 

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. ....... XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

If so , to visit the issue of MEDIUM/ AETHER and GRAVITATIONAL WAVES . Could take a turn !

 

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX. ........ XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

Mike

Edited August 6, 2016 by Mike Smith Cosmos

[ajb]

Waves just can't exist without a medium to wave about in !

In a sence you are right - but this need not be a mechanical medium. We don't need some rubber sheet or chains of particles or anything like that.

 

Electromagnetic waves are ripples in the electromagnetic field (the potential A) and this field itself is 'the medium'.

 

Gravitational waves are ripples in the gravitational field (so the metric in the standard understanding) and this field itself is `the medium'.

[disarray]

In a sence you are right - but this need not be a mechanical medium. We don't need some rubber sheet or chains of particles or anything like that.

Electromagnetic waves are ripples in the electromagnetic field (the potential A) and this field itself is 'the medium'.

Gravitational waves are ripples in the gravitational field (so the metric in the standard understanding) and this field itself is `the medium'.

 

Though a layperson, I have been saying this in so many words in more than one post now.

 

So, even though much different from gravitational or electromagnetic waves, is it too ridiculous to point out the obvious fact which is that water (as with perhaps all 'mechanical' waves) is also itself 'the medium' or perhaps one might, for sake of analogy, say "is itself the field".

 

So one is not denying that the medium of gravitational waves/field exist and exist in such a way that they have different properties from or are somehow different in nature (unavoidable pun) in some way from electromagnetic waves/field. I mention this since being different from one another emphasizes the notion that they have properties and that the medium as well as the wave exists.

 

So, though not like a classical aether, gravitational waves provide (or are) their own wavelike. Perhaps ditto for electromagnetic waves, but in this case it would seem that one is getting into the Schrodinger's Cat issue of whether Bohr was right to presume that the unobserved particle with such a field (e.g., an electron) has no definite (other than statistical) position/velocity. If this be the standard approach, this would suggest that electromagnetic waves (and perhaps gravitational waves) are extremely unmechanical in nature.

 

As an aside, if it is true that one can shake a rug in a vacuum, then there are mechanical examples of waves that don't have a medium anyway, and do not even have a field which is the medium through which they allegedly might need to travel (in this case, air. Though, I would actually like to see an astronaut do the rug test, as again it seems to me that it either would not shake or would shake quite differently if in a vacuum).

Edited August 6, 2016 by disarray

[ajb]

Though a layperson, I have been saying this in so many words in more than one post now.

We have all been saying this all along...

[Strange]

If mike would only accept the fields as the "medium" this would have been over long ago.