imatfaal Posted June 24, 2016 Author Share Posted June 24, 2016 http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/06/24/brexit-the-morning-after/?smid=tw-nytimeskrugman&smtyp=cur&_r=0 Great piece from Krugman in the NYT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 (edited) Also, the promises of £350m for NHS I don't know why that number is seen as a carrot; it's a piddle in the ocean The 2015/16 NHS budget was £116.4 billion. £350m will run the NHS for slightly more than 24 hours. Edited June 24, 2016 by StringJunky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iNow Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 https://next.ft.com/content/f4dcdf62-399d-11e6-9a05-82a9b15a8ee7 A quick note on the first three tragedies. Firstly, it was the working classes who voted for us to leave because they were economically disregarded, and it is they who will suffer the most in the short term. They have merely swapped one distant and unreachable elite for another. Secondly, the younger generation has lost the right to live and work in 27 other countries. We will never know the full extent of the lost opportunities, friendships, marriages and experiences we will be denied. Freedom of movement was taken away by our parents, uncles, and grandparents in a parting blow to a generation that was already drowning in the debts of our predecessors. Thirdly and perhaps most significantly, we now live in a post-factual democracy. When the facts met the myths they were as useless as bullets bouncing off the bodies of aliens in a HG Wells novel. When Michael Gove said, ‘The British people are sick of experts,’ he was right. But can anybody tell me the last time a prevailing culture of anti-intellectualism has led to anything other than bigotry? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Some random thoughts: 1. By agreeing to and then holding the referendum, David Cameron has achieved in 24 hours, what Hitler was unable to achieve in five years: the destruction of the United Kingdom. 2. As a smug, elite bastard I always thought at least 90% of the population were fools. I now have evidence that at least 51.9% of them are. 3. Every voting region in Scotland voted to remain. Thus 62% of our population demonstrated that one can vote with ones heart and ones head at the same time. 4. Ich bin ein European. 5. Idiots! 6. Self censored. 7. Self censored On the plus side, if there is a ripple effect, perhaps the EU will fall. Then we can start again and do it right this time. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel123456 Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 This is the worse: http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/british-lose-right-to-claim-that-americans-are-dumber Some random thoughts: 1. By agreeing to and then holding the referendum, David Cameron has achieved in 24 hours, what Hitler was unable to achieve in five years: the destruction of the United Kingdom. 2. As a smug, elite bastard I always thought at least 90% of the population were fools. I now have evidence that at least 51.9% of them are. 3. Every voting region in Scotland voted to remain. Thus 62% of our population demonstrated that one can vote with ones heart and ones head at the same time. 4. Ich bin ein European. 5. Idiots! 6. Self censored. 7. Self censored On the plus side, if there is a ripple effect, perhaps the EU will fall. Then we can start again and do it right this time. You mean, after a war? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ophiolite Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 You mean, after a war? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Because a lot of people said that the EU was undemocratic, the UK will shortly have an unelected Prime Minister. The current one will, almost certainly, be moved to the House of Lords where he can continue to influence policy without needing to be accountable to the voters. Michel, I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way but, at least part of the reason for the process that led to the UK leaving was the instability of the Greek economy. (There are reasons for that we needn't worry about here). Here are some figures The current GDP of Greece is about 240 billion US dollars The UK's is about 2.7 trillion USD- a little more than 10 times as much. The drop in the value of the UK economy at about 10 o'clock this morning was about 11% of GDP. It would have been cheaper for Britain to buy the entire Greek economy, than to pay for the cost of the first 5 hours of the Brexit. I wish we had, at least we would have something to show for it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigL Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Good olive oil ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharonY Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Some random thoughts: 1. By agreeing to and then holding the referendum, David Cameron has achieved in 24 hours, what Hitler was unable to achieve in five years: the destruction of the United Kingdom. 2. As a smug, elite bastard I always thought at least 90% of the population were fools. I now have evidence that at least 51.9% of them are. 3. Every voting region in Scotland voted to remain. Thus 62% of our population demonstrated that one can vote with ones heart and ones head at the same time. 4. Ich bin ein European. 5. Idiots! 6. Self censored. 7. Self censored On the plus side, if there is a ripple effect, perhaps the EU will fall. Then we can start again and do it right this time. Or, it will boost right-populists throughout Europe, settling them deeper into mainstream and establishing stronger nationalist policies that will hurt Europe in the decades to come. Obviously, the blame would be squarely put on someone else as misdirection, resulting in further populist, but essential non-sensical regulations that drive Europe further apart. On top of it the big divide within countries will lead to vicious political infighting so that Europe eventually becomes a toxic subject. Not that I expect it to happen, but then I thought Brits were reasonable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Good olive oil ? Feta cheese, a robust answer to the Elgin marbles question, nice beaches, Retsina... - take your pick. Any would be better than the current farce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 (edited) 2. As a smug, elite bastard I always thought at least 90% of the population were fools. I now have evidence that at least 51.9% of them are. Ehm. UK population is 65,102,385 Voted leave 17,410,742 people 17,410,742 / 65,102,385 = 26.7% (voter turnout was 72.2%.. Pretty good in comparison to ours..) OTOH, fool is just the one who is jumping from the cliff. or also the one who is near to him on top of cliff, and could not persuade him to not do it, in understandable words.. ? Edited June 25, 2016 by Sensei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 Definitely the one jumping off the cliff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michel123456 Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 Good olive oil ? Excellent. I will begin to sell mine, on the black market of course. Definitely the one jumping off the cliff. In this case, they are 52 fools that jumped off the cliff. They were tied with a rope to another 48 who didn't want to jump. At this moment, they are a hundred falling. The 48 are screaming of fear to die. I see that many of the 51 are screaming, realizing suddenly that it was not a joke. N. Farage is happy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 (edited) In this case, they are 52 fools that jumped off the cliff. They were tied with a rope to another 48 who didn't want to jump. At this moment, they are a hundred falling. The 48 are screaming of fear to die. I see that many of the 51 are screaming, realizing suddenly that it was not a joke. N. Farage is happy. Nigel Farage. the first lemming that jumped off the cliff... Edited June 25, 2016 by Sensei 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 I don't know why that number is seen as a carrot; it's a piddle in the ocean The 2015/16 NHS budget was £116.4 billion. £350m will run the NHS for slightly more than 24 hours. It's not the amount, though I wouldn't be surprised if many interpreted that as a large contribution. It's the immediate backpedal, and corresponding admission that the campaign was based on lies and scapegoating, and that there really isn't (much of) a plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted June 25, 2016 Author Share Posted June 25, 2016 It's not the amount, though I wouldn't be surprised if many interpreted that as a large contribution. It's the immediate backpedal, and corresponding admission that the campaign was based on lies and scapegoating, and that there really isn't (much of) a plan. Exactly. And it was so barefaced - not "we didn't say that" not even "you misinterpreted what we said" but "we shouldn't have said that - it was wrong" FFS. Every time I open the BBC news website I am shocked by the Britain Votes to Leave headline - I still cannot quite get my head around the enormity of our mistake; but I think even I expected it more than the Brexit campaign themselves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 It's not the amount, though I wouldn't be surprised if many interpreted that as a large contribution. It's the immediate backpedal, and corresponding admission that the campaign was based on lies and scapegoating, and that there really isn't (much of) a plan. Listen to what I say, not what I do; FOS. Like JC said earlier, the UK still has a lot Little Englanders. I didn't realise we had that many 'til now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted June 25, 2016 Author Share Posted June 25, 2016 I don't know why that number is seen as a carrot; it's a piddle in the ocean The 2015/16 NHS budget was £116.4 billion. £350m will run the NHS for slightly more than 24 hours. That was a week - so an increase of about 1 pound in 7. And it was important enough for the Leave Campaign to have painted down the side of their battle bus Just to note: The £350 million a week quantum is complete Bullshit as well. But we now live in a post-factual democracy as TS mentioned above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StringJunky Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 That was a week - so an increase of about 1 pound in 7. And it was important enough for the Leave Campaign to have painted down the side of their battle bus Just to note: The £350 million a week quantum is complete Bullshit as well. But we now live in a post-factual democracy as TS mentioned above Interesting; illustrates well how much use that saving is going to be versus the losses economically, in the billions I would think, from lost trade, besides all the other myriad non-fiscal negative impacts. We've dropped a million to save a penny, in a sense, financially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 The direct cost so far- from the loss of value of our currency- is about 130 billion pounds. The "saving" is about a third of the £350 million pound a week figure because we get about 2/3 of it back directly. So the payback time for the costs (so far) would be about 22 years. That's neglecting interest of course, once you figure that in, we never get the money back. And then there's the much further cost due to reduced trade. And then there's the cost due to loss of the very favourable trade deal we had with the EU. This really was monumentally stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sensei Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 (edited) The £350 million a week quantum is complete Bullshit as well. But we now live in a post-factual democracy as TS mentioned above No, it's not "complete Bullshit" (such argument would not persuade anybody especially "UK lemming"), but it's taking contributions without rebate... and without what is received back.. Manipulation for fools that did not learn mathematics in school.. It's more explained here (for ordinary people): https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ And here is UK government data for 2015 (for more intelligent people): https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/483344/EU_finances_2015_final_web_09122015.pdf#page=44 In 2015 UK had to pay 17.779 bln, (17.8 bln / 52 weeks = 342 mln/week.. 350 m/w * 52 = 18.2 bln/y pretty close) but get rebate 4.861 bln, which gave net contributions 12.918 bln. After taking into account what EU sent back to UK, it's much smaller. 8.473 bln / 52 w = ~ 163 mln/week It's easy to manipulate these numbers, when it's so hard to calculate it.. And show whatever they want to public. But more intelligent part of population job is to find these manipulations, and show them to public, so ordinary "fool","UK lemming", can understand them easily... Edited June 25, 2016 by Sensei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 It's not the amount, though I wouldn't be surprised if many interpreted that as a large contribution. It's the immediate backpedal, and corresponding admission that the campaign was based on lies and scapegoating, and that there really isn't (much of) a plan. And they are now admitting that they will have to keep freedom of movement in order to have free trade with Europe. Two great lines from lying scumbags "leave" politicians this morning: "The public are not three-year olds" [meaning: so they should know we didn't mean it] "People expect to be lied to" [ditto] 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swansont Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 And they are now admitting that they will have to keep freedom of movement in order to have free trade with Europe. Two great lines from lying scumbags "leave" politicians this morning: "The public are not three-year olds" [meaning: so they should know we didn't mean it] "People expect to be lied to" [ditto] The problem is when you use that as a justification for lying, and doesn't draw a distinction between lies of exaggeration and fantasy. I expect a politician to oversell his/her position and undersell the opponent's. Their numbers might be a little off. But I can always get an independent, nonpartisan assessment. This (and Trump) are lies on steroids — objective truth just doesn't seem to matter. These folks act as if something is true just because they say it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta1212 Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 The problem is when you use that as a justification for lying, and doesn't draw a distinction between lies of exaggeration and fantasy. I expect a politician to oversell his/her position and undersell the opponent's. Their numbers might be a little off. But I can always get an independent, nonpartisan assessment. This (and Trump) are lies on steroids objective truth just doesn't seem to matter. These folks act as if something is true just because they say it. There are lies, damned lies and statistics. That's what politicians do. We have now discovered there is a level beyond that, Trumptalk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Cuthber Posted June 25, 2016 Share Posted June 25, 2016 No, it's not "complete Bullshit" (such argument would not persuade anybody especially "UK lemming"), but it's taking contributions without rebate... and without what is received back.. Manipulation for fools that did not learn mathematics in school.. It's more explained here (for ordinary people): https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/ And here is UK government data for 2015 (for more intelligent people): https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/483344/EU_finances_2015_final_web_09122015.pdf#page=44 In 2015 UK had to pay 17.779 bln, (17.8 bln / 52 weeks = 342 mln/week.. 350 m/w * 52 = 18.2 bln/y pretty close) but get rebate 4.861 bln, which gave net contributions 12.918 bln. After taking into account what EU sent back to UK, it's much smaller. 8.473 bln / 52 w = ~ 163 mln/week It's easy to manipulate these numbers, when it's so hard to calculate it.. And show whatever they want to public. But more intelligent part of population job is to find these manipulations, and show them to public, so ordinary "fool","UK lemming", can understand them easily... The lie isn't just the sum of money. They can't give it to the NHS because they crashed the economy. But they never would have done- their politics were always to destroy the NHS. So, yes they exaggerated the sum we pay; but the real lie was saying we could fund the NHS with it instead if we left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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