The versatile comma

[Strange]

Brilliant use of the comma in a recent moderator decision:

B. John Jones has shown no desire to learn science in his discussion of it, so together with his willful disregard of the rules he agreed to when joining, we're going to upgrade his suspension to a full ban. We wish him, well....

And, while we are at it, there is the Oxford comma:

 

And the comma of direct address (more informally known as the Donner Party comma) which makes the difference between: "Let's eat, Grandma!" and "Let's eat Grandma!"

[StringJunky]

Brilliant use of the comma in a recent moderator decision:

And, while we are at it, there is the Oxford comma:

 

 

And the comma of direct address (more informally known as the Donner Party comma) which makes the difference between: "Let's eat, Grandma!" and "Let's eat Grandma!"

It was, Strange, but it was strange.

[Phi for All]

Brilliant use of the comma in a recent moderator decision:

 

I appreciate the appreciation!

 

 

 

 

 

This one is so clever.

 

http://ung.edu/writing-center/_uploads/files/gainesville/resources/comma-use-power-point.pdf

 

Dear John:

I want a man who knows what love is all about.

You are generous, kind, thoughtful.

People who are not like you admit to being useless and inferior.

You have ruined me for other men.

I yearn for you.

I have no feelings whatsoever when we’re apart.

I can be forever happy.

Will you let me be yours?

Gloria

 

Same letter, different punctuation:

 

Dear John:

I want a man who knows what love is.

All about you are generous, kind, thoughtful people, who are not like you.

Admit to being useless and inferior.

You have ruined me.

For other men, I yearn.

For you, I have no feelings whatsoever.

When we’re apart, I can be forever happy.

Will you let me be?

Yours,

Gloria

[swansont]

An Oxford comma walks into a bar and orders a gin, and tonic.

[arc]

Brilliant use of the comma in a recent moderator decision:

And, while we are at it, there is the Oxford comma:

 

And the comma of direct address (more informally known as the Donner Party comma) which makes the difference between: "Let's eat, Grandma!" and "Let's eat Grandma!"

 

Not wanting to be an art critic, but, those last two, I'm quite sure, are Michael Jackson and Freddie Mercury.

[michel123456]

In French comma and "but" don't come together.

[Phi for All]

In French comma and "but" don't come together.

 

As in, "We use commas but never next to but because we're French"?

[michel123456]

 

As in, "We use commas but never next to but because we're French"?

 

Thank you for your improvement but no.

Because "but" is a "conjonction de coordination"

That makes the same job as a comma. IOW comma + but = twice the same usage= error.

 

I said in French because I don't know about other languages.

[StringJunky]

 

Thank you for your improvement but no.

Because "but" is a "conjonction de coordination"

That makes the same job as a comma. IOW comma + but = twice the same usage= error.

 

I said in French because I don't know about other languages.

I think I see what you mean; You use either 'but' or ',' but not both because they have the same function. From your link:

 

 

"He says he knows Marseille, { but / yet } he only went once. "

"You will not find him at home, { because / in fact } I have to cross the street. "

"We knew it was Swann; { But / nevertheless } everyone looked quizzically. " Proust , Du côté de chez Swann

"His arms were raised, her head slowly fell back, and / then } he fell unconscious on the floor. " Flaubert , Bouvard and Pecuchet

Edited June 30, 2016 by StringJunky

[Strange]

 

Thank you for your improvement but no.

Because "but" is a "conjonction de coordination"

That makes the same job as a comma. IOW comma + but = twice the same usage= error.

 

I said in French because I don't know about other languages.

 

In English a comma can be used before a conjunction for emphasis.

[StringJunky]

 

In English a comma can be used before a conjunction for emphasis.

In a sense, commas, semi-colons, colons and full stops denote periods of rest in the flow of reading. Each one, respectively, is one beat of silence longer than the previous one in my list. So, if you put a comma after a conjunction it does add emphasis.

[Phi for All]

Because "but" is a "conjonction de coordination"

That makes the same job as a comma. IOW comma + but = twice the same usage= error.

 

That makes sense, especially for reading.

 

It might make reading aloud a bit more difficult, since the comma often gives the speaker a little advance notice about a pause, or a chance to breathe.

[michel123456]

 

That makes sense, especially for reading.

 

It might make reading aloud a bit more difficult, since the comma often gives the speaker a little advance notice about a pause, or a chance to breathe.

You are correct

but the same goes for "since" and "or".

 

It might make reading aloud a bit more difficult since the comma often gives the speaker a little advance notice about a pause or a chance to breathe.

 

-------------

A politician like Churchill would have read

It might, make reading aloud, a bit more difficult, since the comma, often, gives the speaker, a little, advance notice about a pause, or, a chance, to breathe.(Applause)

Edited June 30, 2016 by michel123456

[Phi for All]

A politician like Churchill would have read

It might, make reading aloud, a bit more difficult, since the comma, often, gives the speaker, a little, advance notice about a pause, or, a chance, to breathe.(Applause)

 

3x5 cards aren't as smooth as teleprompters.

[Delta1212]

 

In English a comma can be used before a conjunction for emphasis.

It's not for emphasis. It's used before a conjunction that connects two full clauses.

 

A comma is not really a pause. It's there to help parsing sentences where distinctions between possible meanings are made through timing and intonation. The actual punctuation used is based on the structure of the sentence rather than how the sentence is said with any kind of direct correlation.

 

Commas tell you about the relationship between words and phrases in a sentence (which can impact how you then enunciate the sentence) rather than representing any specific sound, intonation or pause in and of themselves.

[StringJunky]

It's not for emphasis. It's used before a conjunction that connects two full clauses.

 

A comma is not really a pause. It's there to help parsing sentences where distinctions between possible meanings are made through timing and intonation. The actual punctuation used is based on the structure of the sentence rather than how the sentence is said with any kind of direct correlation.

 

Commas tell you about the relationship between words and phrases in a sentence (which can impact how you then enunciate the sentence) rather than representing any specific sound, intonation or pause in and of themselves.

Citation?

[Delta1212]

http://www.businessinsider.com/a-guide-to-proper-comma-use-2013-9

 

http://writingcenter.unc.edu/handouts/commas/

 

http://www.sandhills.edu/academic-departments/english/commaguidelines.html

 

I tried to find something a bit more "hard academic" but there doesn't seem to be anything easily linked to for any of the major style guides specifically on comma use that covers everything or even most of it, (or t least nothing I could find with light to moderate searching) and there's not much that would be more authoritative than that, since all punctuation rules are by convention when you really get down to it.

 

That said, part of the confusion probably arises from the fact that there are some places where commas and common pause points in a sentence naturally coincide. But that's not a reliable indicator of anything, as there are lots of places where commas are mandatory that do not mandate a pause in natural speech as well as places that people tend to pause where a comma would be inappropriate.

 

The rules for semi-colons and colons are also pretty specifically defined and are directly related to function and not to how long you should pause.

 

A semi colon links two independent clauses without a coordinating conjunction, or it replaces a comma in, e.g., a list where the items within the list contain commas so as to avoid confusion.

 

A colon is used before naming something that the preceding sentence was describing or to introduce a list. (We're discussing three types of punctuation: commas, colons and semi-colons).

 

 

Again, you may or may not pause for various lengths of time in a place corresponding to the position of any of these punctuation marks, but even in the instances where you do, the pause is generally not what they are signifying.

[StringJunky]

Again, you may or may not pause for various lengths of time in a place corresponding to the position of any of these punctuation marks, but even in the instances where you do, the pause is generally not what they are signifying.

My riposte:

 

 

In standard English punctuation systems, there are four primary pauses. In increasing order of pause length, they are: comma, semi-colon, colon and full stop (in US English: the period).

 

Good, correct use of punctuation is very important in your writing. Punctuation often plays the same role as variations in your voice do when you are speaking: full stops, colons, semi-colons and commas indicate various lengths of pauses; a question mark obviously indicates a question, whereas a rise or fall in your voice would do this. Lack of punctuation, therefore, or incorrect use of it, will result in your writing being difficult to follow, and your reader having to do unnecessary work. It could, in fact, be argued that correct punctuation is more important than correct grammar in making your writing easy to read.

http://library.bcu.ac.uk/learner/writingguides/1.31.htm

They also perform the other functions you mention.

 

TBH I've only recently learnt that semicolons and colons can be pause indicators. I've genning up on creative writing and they are often used for that purpose in that genre.

[michel123456]

As a side note about punctuation, I like so much the Spanish question mark at the begin of the sentence.

It helps reading the sentence with the good voice tone. In French & English sometimes you must read the sentence twice before getting the meaning and put the correct question intonation.

[StringJunky]

As a side note about punctuation, I like so much the Spanish question mark at the begin of the sentence.

It helps reading the sentence with the good voice tone. In French & English sometimes you must read the sentence twice before getting the meaning and put the correct question intonation.

That's a good idea.

[Strange]

?Shouldn't declarative sentences begin with a period in that case? .Like this.

 

(Not a serious suggestion.)

[Delta1212]

?Shouldn't declarative sentences begin with a period in that case? .Like this.

 

(Not a serious suggestion.)

*Of course not. *They'd need to begin with an upside down period.

[Phi for All]

As a side note about punctuation, I like so much the Spanish question mark at the begin of the sentence.

It helps reading the sentence with the good voice tone. In French & English sometimes you must read the sentence twice before getting the meaning and put the correct question intonation.

 

Oh, I agree! I used to mark scripts in English like that when I had to speak in public. Have you ever noticed they can change your facial expression in a speech, when you know you're about to ask a question? Your eyebrows might go up, your head might tilt. I think it helps convey more meaning, or at least aid in understanding when you give/get prompts like that.

[Strange]

 

Oh, I agree! I used to mark scripts in English like that when I had to speak in public. Have you ever noticed they can change your facial expression in a speech, when you know you're about to ask a question? Your eyebrows might go up, your head might tilt. I think it helps convey more meaning, or at least aid in understanding when you give/get prompts like that.

 

At least in English you often know if if it is a question from near the beginning of the sentence (e.g. it might begin with a w-word). In some languages you don't know until the end of the sentence. (Ditto negatives)

[michel123456]

*Of course not. *They'd need to begin with an upside down period.

Upside down period? There exist the up period that corresponds to the semicolon ; in Greek language.

 

 

Oh, I agree! I used to mark scripts in English like that when I had to speak in public. Have you ever noticed they can change your facial expression in a speech, when you know you're about to ask a question? Your eyebrows might go up, your head might tilt. I think it helps convey more meaning, or at least aid in understanding when you give/get prompts like that.

Yes. And the funny thing when you have to change tone at the last minute in your speech when you didn't realize it was a question.

 

For better control when reading loud, my dad learned me to make my reading faster than my speech. I mean, the eyes can go forward in the sentence and the voice can go a step back. You are then reading from short term memory, not directly from the text.