Strange Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 This is logic. It only seems like a simple answer until you give it any thought. Upon any reflection, it's not even a plausible answer.(1) God can do all that is logically possible. [premise, def: "Omnipotent"](2) Either Morally Perfect Natures are are consistent with Free Will or they are not. [premise, tautology](3) If Morally Perfect Natures are consistent with Free Will, then God could have created beings with both Morally Perfect Natures and Free Will. [Conditional Proof; (1), (2): Modus Ponens](4) If Free Will and Morally perfect Natures are inconsistent, then: (a) God does not have Free Will. [(2), (3): DeMorgan's Law] and/or (b) God is not morally perfect. [(2), (3): DeMorgan's Law] (5)If God exists, at least one of the following is true: God could have created humans with both Morally Perfect Natures and Free Will, God does not have Free Will, or God is not morally perfect. [(2), (3), (4): Constructive Dilemma]Now, the Free Will Defense assumes that a world in which there is moral evil but humans have Free Will is better than one in which there is no moral evil but humans do not have free will. Thus, Free Will is a "Great-making Property", which by definition means God has Free Will.So, using (5) as a premise:(1) God could have created humans with both Morally Perfect Natures and Free Will, God does not have Free Will, or God is not morally perfect. [conclusion of the first argument](2) God has Free Will [premise, Free Will is a Great-Making property](3) God is morally perfect [premise, definition of God](4) God could have created humans with both Morally Perfect Natures and Free Will or God is not morally perfect. [(1), (2): Disjunctive Syllogism](5)God could have created humans with both Morally Perfect Natures and Free Will. [(3), (4): Disjunctive Syllogism] All you have are assertions. (Note, the technical sense of assertion is a statement with no supporting evidence or logic.) 1
Ultimate Infinity Posted June 30, 2016 Author Posted June 30, 2016 I doubt you know the meaning of logic... I guess I was born in Catholic community in the Midwest into a very religious smart family that relies on faith to keep going
dimreepr Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 I guess I was born in Catholic community in the Midwest into a very religious smart family that relies on faith to keep going I'll ask again, how does God benefit you?
Moontanman Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 I guess I was born in Catholic community in the Midwest into a very religious smart family that relies on faith to keep going What does that have to do with logic?
Phi for All Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 I guess I was born in Catholic community in the Midwest into a very religious smart family that relies on faith to keep going Faith seems to require me to use my strongest form of belief on something I can't possibly know about. How is that smart? That's not meant to be rhetorical. I've asked this question here many times. Since I can't do anything to verify whether or not god(s) are real, faith is simply strong belief in things nobody really knows anything about for sure. Why is that smart, why is that logical, why is it reasonable?
Ultimate Infinity Posted June 30, 2016 Author Posted June 30, 2016 I just meant that I came from a family that has high iq levels and ponders large scale ideas not that being religious is smart
ydoaPs Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 This is logic. All you have are assertions. (Note, the technical sense of assertion is a statement with no supporting evidence or logic.) When you click on the notification for being quoted, it takes you right to the post that quoted it, so I was very confused until I scrolled up a few posts. lol The section of my post that was quoted, UI, is literally a couple of logical proofs (with rules cited). The premises are from tautology and from the generally accepted definitions. Where is the flaw?
dimreepr Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 His arrogant assumption that if we just heard him we would fall to our knees is typical of theistic thought in some if not most flavors of religious delusion... What if I asked you the same question?
Ultimate Infinity Posted June 30, 2016 Author Posted June 30, 2016 I am not sure what you mean ydoaPs I never even commented on that quote I can see that they are logical proofs that you did a very nice job on and I agree with them
Moontanman Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 What if I asked you the same question? I would answer you...
ydoaPs Posted June 30, 2016 Posted June 30, 2016 I am not sure what you mean ydoaPs I never even commented on that quote I can see that they are logical proofs that you did a very nice job on and I agree with them You agree with them? Good. They're pretty airtight. So, since your OP says: The number one way that the existence of God is undermined is because of the problem of evil. Which makes sense- how could an all powerful and all good God allow sin and suffering? I understand how this causes doubt. But the answer to why God allows evil is simple - free will. God gives us free will to improve the quality of his people. Think about it if we all could do no wrong how would we improve. We undergo trials and temptation it helps us be stronger and overall better. This is a support of God I'm going to assume that you're an atheist now.
ydoaPs Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 Yet you agree that the way out of the "number one way that the existence of God is undermined" isn't actually a way out.
Ultimate Infinity Posted July 1, 2016 Author Posted July 1, 2016 Sorry friend but my faith won't be shaken just because I agree with one proof you give me I am just willing to admit defeat unlike most atheists -1
DrP Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 But you haven't defeated any atheists in any of these arguments.. ;-) to do that you would need to provide proof of a god or gods, of which we have seen none, because in all likeliness, none exist. ;-) Feelings and hunches and delusions cannot hold up as proof. If you stay a catholic, then carry on being a good one and love the world and your enemies... that is great. If you do see it for the lie that it is (which you might one day) please continue to try to be a nice guy and love the world and your neighbour. Peace out! x 1
Ultimate Infinity Posted July 1, 2016 Author Posted July 1, 2016 But you haven't defeated any atheists in any of these arguments.. ;-) to do that you would need to provide proof of a god or gods, of which we have seen none, because in all likeliness, none exist. ;-) Feelings and hunches and delusions cannot hold up as proof. If you stay a catholic, then carry on being a good one and love the world and your enemies... that is great. If you do see it for the lie that it is (which you might one day) please continue to try to be a nice guy and love the world and your neighbour. Peace out! x You have no more proof that God doesn't exist Thani have that he does exist
ydoaPs Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 You have no more proof that God doesn't exist Thani have that he does exist We don't? You just said your way out of the Problem of Evil has been proven unworkable.
Ultimate Infinity Posted July 1, 2016 Author Posted July 1, 2016 And that doesn't prove he doesn't exist it just proves that that way of proving he does exist doesn't work
dimreepr Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 And that doesn't prove he doesn't exist it just proves that that way of proving he does exist doesn't work It doesn't matter if he (what makes you think it has a gender) exists, what matters is how you live your life and since we can't meet it or prove it, why does it need to exist in order to live your life?
Moontanman Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 And that doesn't prove he doesn't exist it just proves that that way of proving he does exist doesn't work You keep putting the cart in front of the horse, it's not up to anyone to prove god does not exist, it's up to theists to prove he does. If something cannot shown to exist the rational way forward is to not believe. I cannot prove that fairies do not exist, that doesn't mean i should believe they do exist. I cannot prove bigfoot does not exist would you say we must believe there is a bigfoot for that reason? To assert something exists requires evidence of that something. And there is another problem as well, god is not just a simple assumption, it is an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and proving a negative is impossible. You cannot prove i do not have a talking dog, does that mean you should believe i do have a talking dog?
Ultimate Infinity Posted July 1, 2016 Author Posted July 1, 2016 Just like Bigfoot there is as much evidence to prove God exists as there is to prove he doesn't therefore it is up to your belief I believe he exists you don't that's just how it is so please quit wasting any effort in changing my mind
Moontanman Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 (edited) Just like Bigfoot there is as much evidence to prove God exists as there is to prove he doesn't therefore it is up to your belief I believe he exists you don't that's just how it is so please quit wasting any effort in changing my mind Again you make an assertion that does not stand up to the reality of the situation, there is very little if any evidence that bigfoot exists and a huge number of reasons to think it does not exist. There is no empirical evidence that god exists and if you think I should quit showing how baseless your assertions are I would suggest you stop making such nonsensical arguments to try and support your beliefs. I care not what you believe, why do you care that i do not? Why should i stop making objections to your assertions? Maybe you should stop making assertions that bronze age mythology is true... How does Bigfoot help you live your life? Bigfoot gives me comfort, gives me a purpose to live, gives me a strong moral foundation to live my life by... Edited July 1, 2016 by Moontanman
dimreepr Posted July 1, 2016 Posted July 1, 2016 Bigfoot gives me comfort, gives me a purpose to live, gives me a strong moral foundation to live my life by... Good for you, so there's no need for my rhetoric, unless those foundations cause harm.
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