Moontanman Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 My apologizes I meant not good I just forgot the no I have to ask... Even if we say there is a god how do you know it's not the god of the Hinduism or Zoroastrianism or any one of thousands of gods that now lie of the rubbish heap of belief? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Infinity Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 Why do you believe in your god and not some other god or gods? How could making humans suffer be perfection to anyone but a sadist? He doesn't make people suffer he just allows it because it makes us stronger in faithI think they should call this the atheist forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 He doesn't make people suffer he just allows it because it makes us stronger in faith I think they should call this the atheist forum Allow it? Makes it six of one half dozen of the other when you are talking about children... Disgusting stance on this btw... How about giving us some evidence you god exists rather than some other god or no god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 I think sentience, and more importantly the heightened intelligence we gave up so much to get, are definitely responsible for what we call evil. I always come back to early man, guarding his tribe/group from the terrors of the dark, and imagining tigers in the shadows, evil you can't see until it pounces. It's that imagining of something you can't sense with your normal senses that would be highly prized. Predicting which shadow has the evil predator would have seemed like magic, and would have led to imagining many more unseen, unheard entities, including deities that protect as well as those who hunt humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Infinity Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 Allow it? Makes it six of one half dozen of the other when you are talking about children... Disgusting stance on this btw... How about giving us some evidence you god exists rather than some other god or no god? How is my stance disgustingLook no one can prove if God is real or not but it comes down to if you think it's more probable that humans arose from a somehow perfectly set up univers just by chance or that a infinite perfect being exists that allows and does some things that we don't understand its up to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 How is my stance disgusting Look no one can prove if God is real or not but it comes down to if you think it's more probable that humans arose from a somehow perfectly set up univers just by chance or that a infinite perfect being exists that allows and does some things that we don't understand its up to you Wow... strawman much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 He doesn't make people suffer he just allows it because it makes us stronger in faith Don't lie. Obviously he makes people suffer. And that is a pretty bizarre and cruel way of making people believe in you. Sounds like Stockholm Syndrome. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome I think they should call this the atheist forum It is already called "the questioning forum". If you don't want your ideas challenged, don't post on a science forum. There are plenty of places on the web where people will agree with you without thinking. How is my stance disgusting You think it is good that your God makes children suffer and die, just so that people will admire him more. Look no one can prove if God is real or not but it comes down to if you think it's more probable that humans arose from a somehow perfectly set up univers just by chance No one thinks that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imatfaal Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 ! Moderator Note I have hidden the branch regarding the literal truth v self-contradictions of the bible - off-topic, and we have done it before. Open a new thread if you want to go down that route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Infinity Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 Suffering is a result of devil which God allows to exist Wow... strawman much? Still don't get it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) Suffering is a result of devil which God allows to exist Why does he do that? Does he find it amusing, like watching a cat playing with mice? Are you are saying that God created a perfect world, and then the Devil added volcanoes, tornadoes, parasitic worms and the Ebola virus? Still don't get it No one says that "humans arose from a somehow perfectly set up univers just by chance." That is something you made up. The choice is between believing in a universe run by the laws of physics, which we can attempt to understand by observation and experiment, or believing in one created by magic by some entity that there is no evidence for. Making up an opinion that no one has, is called a straw man fallacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man Edited June 30, 2016 by Strange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Infinity Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 The devil added evil and suffering and if you believe there is no God them the only option is that humans arise by chance because somehow the universe has a design that is perfectly set up for humans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) The devil added evil and suffering And your God let him. Shame on him. And shame on you for thinking it is a good idea. and if you believe there is no God them the only option is that humans arise by chance because somehow the universe has a design that is perfectly set up for humans That isn't the only option. It isn't an option at all. NO ONE THINKS THAT. Edited June 30, 2016 by Strange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrP Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) I would be interested to hear Ultimate Infinity's view of the cartoon posted the other week (I can't remember by who) where they have a quiz show about the bible and the contestants answer different but both get the marks - that was funny. It also showed a lot of glowering inconsistencies in the bible, where UI seems to think that there are none. I'll find and post it when I am not at work. Edited June 30, 2016 by DrP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Infinity Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 And your God let him. Shame on him. And shame on you for thinking it is a good idea. That isn't the only option. It isn't an option at all. NO ONE THINKS THAT. To me allowing sin and suffering doesn't seem good but I know that what God does is good so that must help us in some way and if that isn't the option how did humans arise the Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memammal Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 The devil added evil and suffering and if you believe there is no God them the only option is that humans arise by chance because somehow the universe has a design that is perfectly set up for humans As many posters before me already stated, the concept of "evil" is a misnomer. This is a science forum where we are proudly mammal; we are an animal species. As such we can commit as much or as little sin or evil as any other animal. What we perceive as right or wrong stems from morality, which is an evolutionary trait. The devil, angels, demons, gods are mythical beings just like giants, dragons, wizards, elves and the likes. As for the universe being specifically designed for us, think of it differently. We evolved according to our eco system. Read this analogy that I posted some time ago: http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/91596-can-science-explain-everything-in-the-universe-without-a-god/page-13#entry919240 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 The devil added evil and suffering and if you believe there is no God them the only option is that humans arise by chance because somehow the universe has a design that is perfectly set up for humans 99.9999% or more of the universe is hostile and deadly to humans, even the surface the so called perfect Earth has vast regions deadly to humans. How is this evidence the universe is perfect for humans? Humans arose via evolution through natural selection. Natural selection is deterministic not random. We have no idea if intelligent beings can or cannot arise in a universe that is different from ours. The idea of the Earth being perfectly designed for humans or even life is an illusion. Life evolved to fit the Earth not the other way around. It can be said that life also changed the earth via various processes to fit life or at least complex life. You understand that the earth was drastically different billions of years ago...right? For almost 4 billion years the Earth was hostile to complex life much less humans. I can't see how you can assert the earth or the universe is perfect for humans. We can in fact think of ways the Earth could be better for life. Some authors think the earth may actually be a minimally habitable planet but that is nothing but speculation... Even the Pope accepts this version of the universe and Earth as accurate... Seems a bit odd that you disagree... To me allowing sin and suffering doesn't seem good but I know that what God does is good so that must help us in some way and if that isn't the option how did humans arise the God doesn't allow what you call sin and evil he created it, see post #23 in this thread... In fact the idea of heaven, hell, and the devil was borrowed from the Zoroastrian religion. Before the Jews were exposed to Zoroastrian culture they did not have a devil or hell and some would say no heaven either, Satan was an angel picked out by god to do his dirty work, never the same angel and not an evil angel like Christians seem to think... This is a very complex issue, your take on it is not particularly sophisticated, kindergarten level religion at best. As I have said before you are welcome to your beliefs, I would personally defend your right to believe as long as your belief doesn't impinge on the rights of others, but your quest to somehow justify your beliefs via the holy book you admire is fraught with flaws. You should be aware that the Bible your currently use is not in any sense an original document, it dates back to 800 ce at best and even that is questionable. Sin is in y mind simply breaking the parochial customs of your culture, evil is subjective as well. Go back a few hundred years and both sin and evil would different that what we think today. Keep your beliefs and feel welcome to them but your quest to prove a point about reality based in your religion is, I am afraid, doomed to failure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Infinity Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 Mottanmann, buddy all you do is follow where I go on this site and then oppose it and put words in my mouth I am on no quest to prove God but I am providing evidence so that you poor ignorant souls have a chance at enlightenment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 (edited) Mottanmann, buddy all you do is follow where I go on this site and then oppose it and put words in my mouth I am on no quest to prove God but I am providing evidence so that you poor ignorant souls have a chance at enlightenment Hmmm so you think we never studied any of this stuff? How arrogant of you! But when I was a boy I was arrogant as well, I guess it's just part of being a teenager... BTW, this is not a forum for you to proselytize and I question far more than you and your favorite fairy tail... Edited June 30, 2016 by Moontanman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimreepr Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Mottanmann, buddy all you do is follow where I go on this site and then oppose it and put words in my mouth I am on no quest to prove God but I am providing evidence so that you poor ignorant souls have a chance at enlightenment Please explain your enlightenment, and how God helped you achieve it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Infinity Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 I am leaving this site I am done 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moontanman Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Please explain your enlightenment, and how God helped you achieve it? His arrogant assumption that if we just heard him we would fall to our knees is typical of theistic thought in some if not most flavors of religious delusion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phi for All Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Perhaps it's not higher intelligence, but rather our primate sense of justice and cooperation that needs to label some things evil, for acts or behavior that are irredeemable. In fact, I would say you need to be highly intelligent to be truly evil. It seems all about intent. A lion can naturally hunt down a gazelle and start eating it while it's still alive. But it's not doing that to enjoy the suffering, or anything else we'd call evil. However, if we were to do the same thing, it would be unnatural, and because there's no good reason for causing such avoidable stress and suffering, we would most definitely label that act evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Infinity Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 Psych! I am not leaving it's actually kind of fun and trust I realize that everyone here is probably 10 times smarter than me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strange Posted June 30, 2016 Share Posted June 30, 2016 Mottanmann, buddy all you do is follow where I go on this site and then oppose it and put words in my mouth I am on no quest to prove God but I am providing evidence so that you poor ignorant souls have a chance at enlightenment You are not providing evidence. You are just saying what you believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ultimate Infinity Posted June 30, 2016 Author Share Posted June 30, 2016 Logic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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