Speculation about Consciousness

[fredreload]

So here I am with some questions about consciousness. I have concluded that the brain's consciousness consists of analogue circuit thanks to help from Strange. Now I will say that with an experience I encountered I think, when some neuron in my brain is blocked off with electromagnetic radiation, I no longer have consciousness in those neurons. My question would be, is individual neuron contribute a part of the consciousness to the overall consciousness or does it simply amplify the consciousness.

[StringJunky]

So here I am with some questions about consciousness. I have concluded that the brain's consciousness consists of analogue circuit thanks to help from Strange. Now I will say that with an experience I encountered I think, when some neuron in my brain is blocked off with electromagnetic radiation, I no longer have consciousness in those neurons. My question would be, is individual neuron contribute a part of the consciousness to the overall consciousness or does it simply amplify the consciousness.

Consciousness arises from the actions of many neurons, not one. One neuron is not some fraction of consciousness just as one brick is not some fraction of a house; it's just a brick.

[Strange]

You seem to be suggesting that consciousness is separate from the brain.

 

As consciousness appears to emerge from the function of the entire brain (and maybe the whole nervous system, maybe even the endocrine system) loss of a single neutron is unlikely to have a significant effect. Loss of function of groups of related neutrons can cause loss of specific functions, some of which may be related to consciousness (in the most general sense); e.g. the ability to form new memories.

 

 

 

 

I have concluded that the brain's consciousness consists of analogue circuit thanks to help from Strange.

 

I would rather not be associated with any such conclusion.

[fredreload]

Consciousness arises from the actions of many neurons, not one. One neuron is not some fraction of consciousness just as one brick is not some fraction of a house; it's just a brick.

Right, but you do not lose consciousness from losing a neuron, I hope not

You seem to be suggesting that consciousness is separate from the brain.

 

As consciousness appears to emerge from the function of the entire brain (and maybe the whole nervous system, maybe even the endocrine system) loss of a single neutron is unlikely to have a significant effect. Loss of function of groups of related neutrons can cause loss of specific functions, some of which may be related to consciousness (in the most general sense); e.g. the ability to form new memories.

 

 

 

I would rather not be associated with any such conclusion.

I read somewhere that consciousness is consisted of voltage and its interaction with the water molecule. If you have water flowing in pipe resembling to that of a nervous system, I don't think consciousness is generated. But an electrical circuit has voltage too and it is not conscious. Consciousness does not seem to be a current, it could be a voltage, it is not a resistor, it could be a capacitor, so I'm lost. Speaking from the stand point that I put all computer engineering skills into the drain. So with that in mind, if I want to create digital immortality I need to have the property of voltage in mind

Edited June 30, 2016 by fredreload

[StringJunky]

Right, but you do not lose consciousness from losing a neuron, I hope not

Don't worry, the loss of one neuron will have the same effect as taking a cup of water from a lake on it's waterline; negligible to zero.

[Strange]

I read somewhere that consciousness is consisted of voltage and its interaction with the water molecule.

 

 

I can't imagine where you read that. Certainly not on anything related to science.

 

 

 

Consciousness does not seem to be a current, it could be voltage, it is not a resistor, it could be a capacitor, so I'm lost.

 

Think of the operation of a computer program, perhaps an interactive 3D game. Is the gameplay a current or a resistor or a logic gate? Obviously not. It is an emergent property of all the components working together. It would be impossible to study the behaviour of all the individual transistors to understand how to play the game.

[fredreload]

 

 

I can't imagine where you read that. Certainly not on anything related to science.

 

 

Think of the operation of a computer program, perhaps an interactive 3D game. Is the gameplay a current or a resistor or a logic gate? Obviously not. It is an emergent property of all the components working together. It would be impossible to study the behaviour of all the individual transistors to understand how to play the game.

For 3D game running in the computer, it is a software, therefor it runs by executing the program in a specific location inside the computer where the bits (flip flops) are constantly changing based on the operating of the game. Finally the outputs are translated into bits as well and display on the screen based on RGB colors, but no consciousness is involved there.

If you are saying that the entire analogue circuit of the brain comprises consciousness, the current and voltage could be varying throughout the entire circuit, they are not uniform, but consciousness is uniform, so what remains uniform throughout the entire analogue circuit?

[StringJunky]

I think you need to read about emergence; it is an important concept in higher or complex biological and physical systems.

 

 

In philosophy, systems theory, science, and art, emergence is a process whereby larger entities, patterns, and regularities arise through interactions among smaller or simpler entities that themselves do not exhibit such properties. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence

[fredreload]

I think you need to read about emergence; it is an important concept in higher or complex biological and physical systems.

 

Alright, but it emerges based on what property? It has to be some type of electrical property, simply water flowing in the nerve won't work, although I've never seen such a complex water system myself

Edited June 30, 2016 by fredreload

[StringJunky]

Alright, but it emerges based on what property? It has to be some type of electrical property, simply water flowing in the nerve won't work, although I've never seen such a complex water system myself

Yes, it's electrical but the consciousness bit is the behaviour of the entire set of components, not the electricity itself. It's the whole whole collection of impulses that make the consciousness. The mind is information. like code in a computer is information but a piece of code is not a program..

[Strange]

For 3D game running in the computer, it is a software, therefor it runs by executing the program in a specific location inside the computer where the bits (flip flops) are constantly changing based on the operating of the game. Finally the outputs are translated into bits as well and display on the screen based on RGB colors, but no consciousness is involved there.

 

The software is just a set of (changing) states in the memory and gates. It is not a separate thing. Rather like consciousness.

 

 

If you are saying that the entire analogue circuit of the brain comprises consciousness, the current and voltage could be varying throughout the entire circuit, they are not uniform, but consciousness is uniform, so what remains uniform throughout the entire analogue circuit?

 

Nothing is uniform.

[fredreload]

Yes, it's electrical but the consciousness bit is the behaviour of the entire set of components, not the electricity itself. It's the whole whole collection of impulses that make the consciousness. The mind is information. like code in a computer is information but a piece of code is not a program..

Hmm, it needs to be ions, but why? Moving electric charge creates electromagnetic field?

Edited June 30, 2016 by fredreload

[StringJunky]

Hmm, it needs to be ions, but why?

Because they have net charge and can easily react; that's the 'electrical' bit when lots of them act together in sequence.

 

It is a fact of atoms that they all want to have a full outer shell of 8 electrons to be at their most stable state. and every reaction they undertake is towards that end. A positive ion has a deficit of electrons so it will take an electron from an atom that has too many (negative ion). That exchange constitutes the electrical impulse when you put lots of these in series,

Edited June 30, 2016 by StringJunky

[fredreload]

Because they have net charge and can easily react; that's the 'electrical' bit when lots of them act together in sequence.

So a moving charge creates an electromagnetic field?

[StringJunky]

So a moving charge creates an electromagnetic field?

There's an EM field produced by opposite charges.

[fredreload]

Well, now I need to find a way to simulate electromagnetic field in the computer, you think you can simulate it Strange? They are technically photons

Edited June 30, 2016 by fredreload

[Strange]

Well, now I need to find a way to simulate electromagnetic field in the computer, you think you can simulate it Strange? They are technically photons

 

You can get simulators of electromagnetic fields, but I think you are heading in completely the wrong direction. Are you thinking of simulating all the electromagnetic interactions and then from that the behaviour of ion channels, and from that the behaviour of neurons and from that, eventually, the behaviour of the whole brain?

 

All the supercomputers in the world probably couldn't do anything useful on that basis.

 

You need to learn about modelling and abstraction.

 

When we simulate microprocessors, for example, we can do it at various levels. If we just want to model the behaviour, we might simulate it at the level of functions such as adders, multipliers, registers, and some gates. At this level, we can simulate entire software programs running and make sure the behaviour is correct.

 

If we need to be sure about the timing and the lower level interactions, then we can model it at the level of individual logic gates. But this is much slower and so we can only model short bits of code.

 

Then we might want to look at a lower level: check the function and timing of the transistors making up the gates. In this case, we might have to simulate only a small part of the processor at a time, perhaps only for a few cycles. It is impractical (and pointless) trying to simulate the whole processor like that.

 

Then, of course, the designers of individual transistors and the semiconductor manufacturing process might simulate things at the level of charges moving through silicon using quantum theory. But there is no way to simulate the whole processor at that level.

 

So you need to be clearer about what you want to achieve and what level of modelling to use. My guess is that modelling anything below the level of individual neuron functions is unnecessary and impractical. Modelling anything but a small insect brain might be impossible at that level, anyway.

[DevilSolution]

Logic serves a special purpose in the brain in so much as its the only function with which we can truly distinguish one thing from another. Blue is not red, a chair is not a table, sound is not colour and EMR is not edible. We then use combinatorics to combine these separate entities into new entities such as putting a sharp stone on a long stick.....(the foundation for thought).

By linking things that are not the same we come up with idea's of whats possible, and with that comes the question of why which if you do not use or have never asked then you are not conscious.

 

consciousness is a highly constructed concept that inevitably comes from the linking of sets of neurons, with the chemical equation in there to balance us ( or un-balance ). consciousness looks for symbiosis in an otherwise completely hostile environment.

 

It's less linked to the amount of neurons more so perhaps how those neurons are connected.

 

Using the brick analogy from earlier, just compare the economical 70's in high rise estates to the architecture of old churches, castles, mosques etc. There's probably more bricks in london than in rome, but which do you prefer? the architectural aspect is most prominent in both cases of rome and consciousness.

 

We'll all turn off one day. And will be totally unawares of it.

[cladking]

So here I am with some questions about consciousness. I have concluded that the brain's consciousness consists of analogue circuit thanks to help from Strange. Now I will say that with an experience I encountered I think, when some neuron in my brain is blocked off with electromagnetic radiation, I no longer have consciousness in those neurons. My question would be, is individual neuron contribute a part of the consciousness to the overall consciousness or does it simply amplify the consciousness.

 

Neurons are on or off. How can consciousness be analog if the brain is digital?

 

The irony here is I probably have the answer and want to say but it will be considered off topic.

 

Suffice to say that consciouness is widespread in nature and even God's lowliest creatures do it. If it were complicated then I couldn't do it. Consciousness is an emergent property of the sum total of the animal brain.

 

Mebbe I could skirt around going off topic by merely observing that individuals operate, think, and communicate using language as an operating system. Understand language and you'll understand why consciousness appears to be analog.

[DrmDoc]

I agree with Strange and SJ in that consciousness is a product of functionally separate and distinct groupings of cortical and subcortical neurons working in concert. The electrochemical exchanges within these neuronal groups are how each grouping separately consolidates its functional contribution to consciousness and communicate that contribution to all neuronal groups to collectively product consciousness. In my opinion, electromagnetic computer simulations of consciousness are only effective when they simulate and collectivize the separate and distinct functional exchanges that produce consciousness. Also, human consciousness required millions of years of brain development to evolve. Any computer simulation of human consciousness without a basis in our brain's evolution would, IMO, continue to be unwieldy and inferior to that produced by the human brain.

[Delta1212]

For 3D game running in the computer, it is a software, therefor it runs by executing the program in a specific location inside the computer where the bits (flip flops) are constantly changing based on the operating of the game. Finally the outputs are translated into bits as well and display on the screen based on RGB colors, but no consciousness is involved there.

If you are saying that the entire analogue circuit of the brain comprises consciousness, the current and voltage could be varying throughout the entire circuit, they are not uniform, but consciousness is uniform, so what remains uniform throughout the entire analogue circuit?

In what way is consciousness uniform?

[fredreload]

Alright, so I'm speculating that consciousness arise from electromagnetic field that has previously been theorized here. The thing is electromagnetic field itself is not consciousness and how consciousness arise inside the brain with electromagnetic field is never explained. Electromagnetic field itself is not conscious, its interaction with water molecule as theorized elsewhere that I ruled out to be conscious(ruled out = it is not conscious). Consciousness occurs in the brain, so it could be the brain's structure or material composition give rise to consciousness. I'd like to see if electromagnetic field mapping can be done to the brain too, though I'm not an expert on that

Edited July 1, 2016 by fredreload

[DevilSolution]

Well we do have brain waves

 

Some are on other wavelengths, some waves are continuous and have no length. Only time.

[andrewcellini]

Alright, so I'm speculating that consciousness arise from electromagnetic field that has previously been theorized here. The thing is electromagnetic field itself is not consciousness and how consciousness arise inside the brain with electromagnetic field is never explained. Electromagnetic field itself is not conscious, its interaction with water molecule as theorized elsewhere that I rule out to be conscious. Consciousness occurs in the brain, so it could be the brain's structure or material composition give rise to consciousness. I'd like to see if electromagnetic field mapping can be done to the brain too, though I'm not an expert on that

so if i put two electrodes hooked up to a car battery in a cup of water, is that interaction conscious?

Edited June 30, 2016 by andrewcellini

[DrmDoc]

Alright, so I'm speculating that consciousness arise from electromagnetic field that has previously been theorized here. The thing is electromagnetic field itself is not consciousness and how consciousness arise inside the brain with electromagnetic field is never explained. Electromagnetic field itself is not conscious, its interaction with water molecule as theorized elsewhere that I rule out to be conscious. Consciousness occurs in the brain, so it could be the brain's structure or material composition give rise to consciousness. I'd like to see if electromagnetic field mapping can be done to the brain too, though I'm not an expert on that

Precisely; consciousness is a collective expression of brain function, arising from separate and distinct neuronal groups, through a concert of electrochemical exchanges,

Edited June 30, 2016 by DrmDoc