Are there any others still interested in the Madeleine McCann case?

[Robittybob1]

Are there any others here still interested in the Madeleine McCann case? Is there anything that doesn't seem right from a scientific perspective?

I have been researching the case and I feel it is a very interesting science case.

[ajb]

I have been researching the case and I feel it is a very interesting science case.

Maybe to get the dialogue going you should highlight what the science is here. (There is some question about the quality of the initial forensic investigation and preservation of the crime scene.)

[Robittybob1]

Maybe to get the dialogue going you should highlight what the science is here. (There is some question about the quality of the initial forensic investigation and preservation of the crime scene.)

In spite of that the PJ were still able to show there was no breakin.

So there are the forensic science aspects. Also it really fascinates me how they train the two English springer spaniels to detect cadavers and how soon after death would a body start to produce cadaverine or combination of odours that the dog senses. to know it was only human. Cadaverine is a simple molecule, there wouldn't be a specific human variety. Why were the places where the sniffer dogs indicated so spread out? Why was there no detection of death odour on the bed clothes for instance?

 

There was the calling in of Danie Krugel and his "Matter Orientation System" http://www.mccannfiles.com/id304.html

 

Danie Krügel, a former South African police officer, who claims to have invented a "Matter Orientation System" (MOS) for locating missing items and people.

If you look at the claims and the testimonials you are left wondering what sort of machine or hoax was this? The PJ seem to believe it and brought in the cadaver dogs after that episode. One thing that needs explaining is if his machine was so good why were there two sites of major interest in completely different locations?

Even I find I'm caught up in the hoax for why/how do I think it would work in the first place! Was this the first major fail for his machine?

How can you link a DNA sample to a person's current location through the GPS? I thought maybe it has to do with entangled particles but how difficult are the entangled particles to locate? What sort of equipment would you need to do that?

Edited July 3, 2016 by Robittybob1

[John Cuthber]

What does a break in have to do with it?
Keys to holiday homes are going to be owned temporarily by lots of people- anyone of those could have copied it. Lack of a break in has nothing much to do with lack of an intruder.

Also see

http://businesstech.co.za/news/general/72826/gimmicks-that-took-south-africans-for-a-ride/

 

"How can you link a DNA sample to a person's current location through the GPS? "
You can't. It's fake.

Edited July 3, 2016 by John Cuthber

[Robittybob1]

What does a break in have to do with it?

Keys to holiday homes are going to be owned temporarily by lots of people- anyone of those could have copied it. Lack of a break in has nothing much to do with lack of an intruder.

Also see

http://businesstech.co.za/news/general/72826/gimmicks-that-took-south-africans-for-a-ride/

 

"How can you link a DNA sample to a person's current location through the GPS? "

You can't. It's fake.

Either the scene was left to look like a break in or the window was opened so something could be passed through it. In the second case there would have to be two people involved for it is reported that nothing had rubbed on the window sill.

 

If keys were used that would make it sound like a local job, but there was an even easier way into the apartment; through the unlocked sliding window (backdoor).

 

There was cadaver odour detected in the garden near the window (as I understand it ATM). So why would there be a cadaver in the garden? Had Madeleine been deceased long enough to produce cadaver odour? Who was going to take her around to the window to make it look like an abduction and alternatively no abductor in their right mind would abduct a cadaver!

 

Science needs to used to explain this case.

 

Even your article doesn't call the "Matter Orientation System" a fake.

 

There is a lot of scepticism regarding this invention, with many critics arguing that it is simply too good to be true.

In this article it says Krugel was working in a responsible post!

http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic264.html

 

 

While he is currently working as the director of health and safety at the Central University of Technology of the Free State, Danie Krugel (right) is also trying to patent his equipment, which works on satellite technology. Details of the controversial equipment he has developed are being kept under wraps until it has been patented, he said.

http://www.thestar.co.za/?fArticleId=4224080

The reference DNA sample was a hair from Madeleine's coat.

Yet in another article it says it was from a hairbrush. http://www.mccannfiles.com/id304.html

 

So was there more than one sample used over the three nights?

 

The hair sample is from a hair brush received by Danie Krugel from Gerry McCann.

 

It says it took 3 nights to do the testing. (Sounds like he was a walking around during the day. Is he more a criminal profiler than a scientist?)

 

 

With the consent of her parents, Gerry and Kate McCann, Krugel spent three nights searching for missing Madeleine (4) in July, using the Matter Oriented System (MOS) equipment he has developed.

The site he outlined to be searched for Madeleine's body is a wasteland, full of black refuse bags, building rubble and rocks, and is located only 900m away from the Ocean Club resort apartment where the McCann family were staying in Praia da Luz.

I have seen other diagrams where there were two locations.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/daniekrugelmap.jpg There are two pin pionts indicating "priority search areas".

 

Two different DNA samples could theoretically reveal two different locations.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Robittybob1

[michel123456]

Surprisingly and contrary to all crime novels, in this case the twins have nothing to do with the case. Nothing else to add.

[Robittybob1]

Surprisingly and contrary to all crime novels, in this case the twins have nothing to do with the case. Nothing else to add.

It is an unusual situation for the parents now that the twins are growing up and learning how to access the internet and use Google. There are hundreds of websites that are just full of claims that "the parents did it".

From the sequence of events as I understand it Danie Krugel advised the Mccanns to get cadaver dogs brought in, and I saw a YT yesterday in which Gerry claims that he asked for the cadaver dogs to be brought in.

Now if that is true that points to a complete innocence IMO. Innocence as in lack of involvement with burying bodies at least. They seem to accept with hindsight it was silly of them to leave the kids so unprotected.

I can't imagine how a guilty person would ever encourage the police to bring in the cadaver dogs that had a track record of being right in 199 out of the last 200 cases they had been involved in.

 

It is only after the unexplainable situation (from the Mccann's point of view) that there had been cadavers in the apartment that Gerry did more research into cadaver dogs and found that they were "unreliable".

I am tending to agree "they are unreliable" in some way too, for if there are 11 places where the dogs indicated that mathematically could allow for a solution of a total of 11 different cadavers, for they don't distinguish between cadavers just cadaver material yes or no! This obviously would be the extreme and might occur in a serial killer situation where there were multiple victims buried in around a property.

 

It is like when doing square roots you must not ignore the negative number solution e.g. square root of 4 = +2 or - 2 yet most people would just give you the solution of 2 only.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Robittybob1

[John Cuthber]

"There was cadaver odour detected in the garden near the window (as I understand it ATM). So why would there be a cadaver in the garden? "

Dead rat?

[Robittybob1]

"There was cadaver odour detected in the garden near the window (as I understand it ATM). So why would there be a cadaver in the garden? "

Dead rat?

No, the dog "Eddie" was trained only to react to human cadaver odour. A very specialised training method is involved.

The dog "Keela" was trained only to react to human blood.

[John Cuthber]

Is that as valid as the nonsense about DNA and GPS?

[Robittybob1]

Is that as valid as the nonsense about DNA and GPS?

I think there is a validity. It is valid for this Martin Grimes, the dogs' owner and trainer, had been correct in 199 out of 200 cases he had been involved in (at that stage of his career). He knew his dogs reactions so well, he was able to sense where to take his dogs to sniff out the important details. Basically the dogs had to be in and over the spots of blood or the spots where the cadaver odour was to make it work. Kate noticed this "directing" of his dogs and hence called it an "incomplete science".

 

Where the PJ went wrong IMO was to not keep all the logic options (mathematical) open no matter how illogical they were. The logic in this case using the combination of dogs was that every spot of blood could potentially have come from a different person and each place where cadaver odour was found was potentially a different cadaver, even if it seems unlikely that there is more than one person or victim involved.

Kate noticed this flaw and started talking about touching deceased persons in the last week of her job. People began saying this was "unlikely" but the science behind what limits to which a dog can sense the cadaver odour is not there.

Touching a cadaver at work could account for the odour being on "cuddle cat" and her's and madeline's clothing, but then it could potentially also be on every other item she touched for the last week as well e.g. the books she read to the kids before they went to sleep.

 

If you go through the videos (like I have) the other trainer (sorry I forget his name) and Martin (himself) tells us that each of the indications is not proof in itself but has to be backed up with corroborating evidence e.g DNA or witness testimony.

 

Like the story in the end has to be able to account for a cadaver (not necessarily the same cadaver) being at each of the 11 or so locations.

I couldn't see how this was possible with the scenarios being proposed on line or officially by Goncalo Amaral. There had to be a different story IMO.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Robittybob1

[Robittybob1]

Yesterday I made a significant breakthrough in my research. Today I made my first report of this information to Scotland Yard's Operation Grange. I will share this information with the forum if SY does not take it seriously.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Robittybob1

[John Cuthber]

Yesterday I made a significant breakthrough in my research. Today I made my first report of this information to Scotland Yard's Operation Grange. I will share this information with the forum if SY does not take it seriously.

See you shortly then.

[Robittybob1]

See you shortly then.

That is extremely cryptic. I would like to see you in Praia da Luz as well as in London.

[John Cuthber]

I will make it less cryptic.

You said

" I will share this information with the forum if SY does not take it seriously. "

Well, I anticipate seeing the information here shortly because the Yard are not going to take anything seriously from someone who even gave that South African fraudster a name-check.

[Robittybob1]

I will make it less cryptic.

You said

" I will share this information with the forum if SY does not take it seriously. "

Well, I anticipate seeing the information here shortly because the Yard are not going to take anything seriously from someone who even gave that South African fraudster a name-check.

Thanks. For a moment I thought you might be working for Scotland Yard as a "chemistry expert"!

Scotland Yard may not have been involved with the case at the time the McCanns called in Danie Krugel.

It was the McCanns who asked the PJ to call in the cadaver dogs based on the results of Danie's findings.

 

The immanent arrival of the cadaver dogs seems to have fueled within someone the need to shift "the body". It is reported "over 30 adults" had access to the McCanns rental car, the one in which the cadaver odour and matching DNA was found. It wasn't a full match, just 15 out of the 19 alleles matched, so it was 1:1 billion chance it was related to Madeleine.

Was Michel123456 right; could there have been a twin involved?

 

The YT documentary "Documentary MadeleineMcCann WHAT THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO KNOW" seems to suggest something along these lines too. I haven't been able to track down the narrator Nicole Anderson yet but there are other incidences of her on the internet. So whether she is "catwoman" I don't know but she (catwoman) certainly has done a lot of research into this case.

[Robittybob1]

The McCann's rental car is hired 23 days after the disappearance of Madeleine. One moment Goncalo Amaral says the McCanns (the day after her disappearance) hid Madeleine's body inside a coffin resting in the local church under a body of a woman that was going to be cremated the next day. Well if that was the case how did the odour get in the car that hadn't yet been hired?

His reasoning seems rather flawed to me.

 

I'm tending to the view that Madeleine is still alive and that she was taken out of the apartment in a combination of two events that are unrelated but they coincide in a strange way.

It could go something like this:

1. Person 1 thinks he has caused the accidental death of Madeleine (M1) and takes her out of the apartment and hides her nearby around 9:15 PM.

2. A family group of 2 males and 1 female (Persons 2, 3 and 4) were planning to kidnap a particular child from the resort.

3. Person 2 finds the still alive child M1 (maybe just overly sedated) and proceeds with the plan to remove her from Praia da Luz.

4. Persons 3 and 4 puts a truly deceased child M2 belonging to Persons 2 and 3 back into apartment 5A via the window but they accidently leave the kids bedroom window open.

5. Person 1 finds this deceased child in the apartment and hides this other child M2 thinking someone had returned the body of Madeleine (M1) back to the apartment, but Person 1 does not (can't, won't) tell the McCanns of what has happened in steps 1 and 5.

6. When the search is in full swing Person 1 takes child M2 away from the temporary hiding place and hides her quite a distance from the apartment.

7. After Danie Krugel has identified the two search areas Person 1 takes the hidden M2 in the McCanns rental car while the McCanns are away on one of their overseas trips.

8. Person 1 goes back to England.

9. Later the cadaver dogs reveal that a cadaver had been in the apartment and the McCanns can't explain it.

 

This really complex scenario can account for all the blood spots and cadaver positions and yet leaves the McCanns in a position of total innocence.

 

So if this proposed scenario is right the body of M2 will not be found in any of the identified search areas. In this complex scenario M1 and M2 were both conceived by IVF and were biological sisters (this accounts for the partial but very close DNA matches (even the PJ say there is evidence of more than 1 DNA source) This relationship further accounts for the similarity of the hair samples).

 

It is step 2 that I plan to discuss with Scotland Yard for I believe we have identified this group of three persons in a photo with Madeleine in tow comparing them with other identikits and photos produced by several others at Praia da Luz.

[imatfaal]

!

Moderator Note

 

OK enough already. This is not a crime website nor a conspiracy theory website.

 

I am locking this thread -

• it is in poor taste
• prima facie it is conspiracy rather than science
• it seems to cast aspersions at, and is getting close to accusing those who are not here to defend themselves
• on the wildest chance that any of the above is true this is the wrong forum in which to present it and it should not be publicised

If you wish to discuss any of the forensics, crimonology, or legal aspects in a hypothetical scenario or in a case which has been through the courts then open a new thread in the relevant forum