Police shootings at Dallas BLM protest.

[DrmDoc]

So when you say Dallas and BLM may justify extra fear despite what the statistics suggest I recommend caution. As mentioned in an earlier post in isolation anything can seem significant. In my opinion looking at the actually numbers is the best method of determining what is actually significant.

To be clear, I am not suggesting that your statistics are irrelevant and I am not trying to justify any increased measure of fear among police ranks. Although not initially, as you erroneously believed I previously inferred, what I am now suggesting, as those quoted comments attest, is that there could be heightened fear among police given recent events and our nation's political environment. I'm certain you're aware of the enhanced security efforts implemented by various police departments throughout our nation. I think we can both agree that those efforts are not the result of an increasing climate of security among police, as your statistics suggest. Rather than a justification, this is a fact of the era in which we now live here in America. Although useful and meaningful tools, I don't think statistics are uppermost in the mind of the common beat cop while patrolling our communities. Regardless, I agree that fear is an oppressive tool unscrupulously employed to justify the most evil acts and should never sway an officer's judgment or actions.

Edited July 17, 2016 by DrmDoc

[Ten oz]

To be clear, I am not suggesting that your statistics are irrelevant and I am not trying to justify any increased measure of fear among police ranks. Although not initially, as you erroneously believed I previously inferred, what I am now suggesting, as those quoted comments attest, is that there could be heightened fear among police given recent events and our nation's political environment. I'm certain you're aware of the enhanced security efforts implemented by various police departments throughout our nation. I think we can both agree that those efforts are not the result of an increasing climate of security among police, as your statistics suggest. Rather than a justification, this is a fact of the era in which we now live here in America. Although useful and meaningful tools, I don't think statistics are uppermost in the mind of the common beat cop while patrolling our communities. Regardless, I agree that fear is an oppressive tool unscrupulously employed to justify the most evil acts and should never sway an officer's judgment or actions.

When is this ever not the case?

[iNow]

Happening now: 3 officers dead, 4 more shot and wounded in Baton Rouge.

 

https://news.vice.com/article/baton-rouge-louisiana-police-officers-shot

[StringJunky]

Happening now: 3 officers dead, 4 more shot and wounded in Baton Rouge.

 

https://news.vice.com/article/baton-rouge-louisiana-police-off

Shooting policemen are the new schoolchildren... it must get a bit boring dreaming about shooting the same old targets.

[MigL]

Common denominator seems to be the easy availability of guns to any lunatic,

Not race.

[StringJunky]

Common denominator seems to be the easy availability of guns to any lunatic,

Not race.

Oh, Second Amendment, how they love Thee.

[DrmDoc]

When is this ever not the case?

 

In view of what is now happening in Baton Rouge, apparently never. However, let's not characterize this regrettably new shooting incident as a planned attack on police until all the facts are known. Unfortunately, this is what happens in a country with legal and pervasive gun ownership.

[Phi for All]

Oh, Second Amendment, how they love Thee.

 

Or... OR... they art easily manipulated by those who doth love profit above life itself.

 

I'm betting gun sales in the US are at an all-time high, based on the number of background checks performed by the FBI and ATF.

[StringJunky]

 

Or... OR... they art easily manipulated by those who doth love profit above life itself.

 

I'm betting gun sales in the US are at an all-time high, based on the number of background checks performed by the FBI and ATF.

Yes, fear of death is great business and the more gun deaths there are the more guns are needed; the gun manufacturers must be so happy they can hardly count the money. Their motto must be : Long Live Death!

[Ten oz]

Too many guns is an obvious problem. They multiply the easy at which negative outcomes can be realized. I feel the media has some culpability too for exploiting fears and infaming passions in trade for ratings. These recent killings are very sad. Unfortunately we aren't able to agree that all killing is sad. I have no reservations saying that the Police in Baton Rouge did not deserve to die, that the police in Dallas did not deserve to die, that no police in any U.S. city deserves to die. Unfortunately we hesitate to say the same the vice versa and that hesitation contributes to tensions, fear, animosity, and other negative feelings that sick/dangerous individuals manifest into violence. Would a more universal rejection of violence broadly reduce violent atcs considerably; maybe, maybe not. I certianly don't see how it could possibly make anything worse.

[Phi for All]

Yes, fear of death is great business and the more gun deaths there are the more guns are needed; the gun manufacturers must be so happy they can hardly count the money. Their motto must be : Long Live Death!

 

The gun business feeds the police business, which feeds the legislative business, which feeds the prison business, which feeds the crime business that needs more guns. I'm beginning to think economists are behind it all, thinking that if they take guns out of the Jenga Tower of Death, the whole US economy will come crashing down. So nobody does anything about guns, because they're afraid. Huh.

[StringJunky]

.... Unfortunately we hesitate to say the same the vice versa and that hesitation contributes to tensions, fear, animosity, and other negative feelings that sick/dangerous individuals manifest into violence. Would a more universal rejection of violence broadly reduce violent atcs considerably; maybe, maybe not. I certianly don't see how it could possibly make anything worse.

Apart from those that are insane in some due to physiological brain problems, such an individual, clearly, cannot be held responsible for their actions, there is no viable alternative but to hold sane people accountable for their actions which may result in them being killed or incarcerated for until they die; the latter being a potential living death as Gilga-Flesh pointed out. What you ask for broadly goes against nature.... with the exception of Bonobos who are ultimate hippies in making love not war. Your desire is very Buddhist; laudable but improbable.

 

The gun business feeds the police business, which feeds the legislative business, which feeds the prison business, which feeds the crime business that needs more guns. I'm beginning to think economists are behind it all, thinking that if they take guns out of the Jenga Tower of Death, the whole US economy will come crashing down. So nobody does anything about guns, because they're afraid. Huh.

People can't see 'the wood for the guns trees'.

Edited July 17, 2016 by StringJunky

[Ten oz]

Apart from those that are insane in some due to physiological brain problems, such an individual, clearly, cannot be held responsible for their actions, there is no viable alternative but to hold sane people accountable for their actions which may result in them being killed or incarcerated for until they die; the latter being a potential living death as Gilga-Flesh pointed out. What you ask for broadly goes against nature.... with the exception of Bonobos who are ultimate hippies in making love not war. Your desire is very Buddhist; laudable but improbable.

People can't see 'the wood for the guns trees'.

Not all species kill.

[dimreepr]

Apart from those that are insane in some due to physiological brain problems, such an individual, clearly, cannot be held responsible for their actions, there is no viable alternative but to hold sane people accountable for their actions which may result in them being killed or incarcerated for until they die; the latter being a potential living death as Gilga-Flesh pointed out. What you ask for broadly goes against nature.... with the exception of Bonobos who are ultimate hippies in making love not war. Your desire is very Buddhist; laudable but improbable.

 

 

Why, is rehabilitation such a distant hope?

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/12/18/prison-could-be-productive/punishment-fails-rehabilitation-works

[dimreepr]

Seems relevant in this thread...

 

[Ten oz]

NWA's F the police track came in in 1988 I believe. Ice T had a track called Cop Killer in 1992. LA also experienced rioting in 1992 following the Rodney King verdict. Much of what we are experiencing today has been happening for a very long time. Each new generation experiences if differently and in turn the media keeps representing it as new. It isn't

 

In my opinion Rap music expressing agression toward police, the LA riots, and etc actually helped get the Federal Assualt Weapons ban passed in 1994. Weapons like AK-47s and TEC-9s were often cited by name in the rap lyrics of groups like NWA. Perhaps groups like BLM and the concerns over tensions between minority communities and police will lead to action on gun laws again.

 

It is very troubling though that action when race is involved often seems more likely than when considering other factors. We have have college shootings, grade school shootings, we had a congress women shot, police murdered, and etc but those things haven't been enough to move the needle. It seems that having a good ol fashion race debate goes further to get guns addressed than most other things may be able to.

[Moontanman]

Moontanman, I accept I misspoke.

 

 

 

And this is a real risk?

 

Also I would suggest that confronting anyone with a gun could result in the same - the whole game of stealing some of your things is now a deadly battle. Not really making you or anyone else any safer.

 

 

I have given some more thought to this and again I would separate out hand guns from long guns, possibly even shotguns from other long guns. a year ago or so a young man, no doubt in some desperation, broke into a local home and stole a gun, a hand gun, a .45 caliber automatic. He literally jumped my fence ran through my yard so fast my dogs hardly had time to look up and he was gone. The compact size of the gun contributed mightily to it's danger, it was easy for him to steal, readily sold for cash, and not much use for anything but fear tactics unless you are well trained.

 

I thought long and hard that day about what I would or could have done, I saw the gun, it was relatively obvious he was running from something to powerful to confront with a gun. What if anything should I have done? Confront him? Not even on a dare. I realized after the fact I had done the correct thing in simply watching him run. He was caught, no doubt is in jail right now, I told the police what I saw, they were nice and polite and I never even had to go to court.

 

The drug bust I mentioned before was totally different but it would still have been an insane act to have tried to intervene in both cases. Some people in my circle of friends seemed to think I should have done something, I think I did do something, the correct thing in fact, but someone breaking into my house is still a different animal.

[DrmDoc]

Yet another unarmed African-American shot by a police officer. The incident involved an African-American therapist trying to corral an escaped Autistic patient who he found playing with a silvery toy amid a roadway. Police were called to the scene by a report of someone brandishing a gun and threatening suicide. Prior to the shooting, as a video of the incident shows, the therapist was laying on his back with his hands extended in clear view and his patient, seated next to him, with a silvery object in his hand. Audio of the incident reveals that prior to the shooting the therapist informed the police that he was, in fact, a therapist who was trying to coax his autistic patient back to his treatment center and that the patient had just a toy truck in his hands. The therapist can be heard imploring the police not to shoot him and his patient. Subsequently, an officer fired 3x, striking the therapist in his thigh while he laid with hands extended. It was later reported that the officer thought he was protecting the therapist from the possibly armed patient. If this is true, then this officer was negligently trained or grossly undertrained in several ways. First, if the officer believed this was a hostage situation he should never have discharged his weapon amid negotiations where his actions risk injury to an innocent citizen. Second, if the officer was close enough to confidently discharge his weapon, he was close enough to recognized that the toy object was not a gun per the officer's likely weapons training. Third, if the patient with a suspected weapon was his target, it should not have taken 3 shots to strike a large, stationary suspect above one that is laying on the ground. It's clear from the illicit actions of a now suspended supervisor, who was on the scene at the time of the shooting, that police training or rules were violated. The supervisor was suspended without pay for falsifying his report on the incident.

Edited July 23, 2016 by DrmDoc

[Ten oz]

@ DrmDoc, the police officer claims to have been aiming for the patient. As if that makes it excusable. This case is a prime example of how bad the problem is. A therapist had to take a bullet trying to keep the police from killing a disabled person who posed no threat and was not mentally capable of following their instructions. The bar needs to be raised. The follow my instructions perfectly or risk death approach is not working. People mishear instructions, get confused, have disabilities, language barriers, and etc.

[iNow]

Not a murder, but super aggressive thrashing arrest of a tiny black woman last year in Austin, video just released. Different cop driving her to the police station explains police bias being seen so frequently lately is due to "violent tendencies" of black people. Video at link:

 

https://news.vice.com/article/austin-police-body-slam-woman-twice-blames-black-peoples-violent-tendencies

Edited July 23, 2016 by iNow

[DrmDoc]

@ DrmDoc, the police officer claims to have been aiming for the patient. As if that makes it excusable. This case is a prime example of how bad the problem is. A therapist had to take a bullet trying to keep the police from killing a disabled person who posed no threat and was not mentally capable of following their instructions. The bar needs to be raised. The follow my instructions perfectly or risk death approach is not working. People mishear instructions, get confused, have disabilities, language barriers, and etc.

 

I agree.

 

Not a murder, but super aggressive thrashing arrest of a tiny black woman last year in Austin, video just released. Different cop driving her to the police station explains police bias being seen so frequently lately is due to "violent tendencies" of black people. Video at link:

 

https://news.vice.com/article/austin-police-body-slam-woman-twice-blames-black-peoples-violent-tendencies

 

It's an unnerving thought that people who think this way could be patrolling our streets with an expectation that they will treat all our citizens fairly and keep them equally safe. How can we change this culture of bigotry and violence in our nation? Words are not enough and deeds seem to engender even more hate and violence. Perhaps there are solutions but none, I think, that suits the urgency we seem to be experiencing more frequently.

Edited July 23, 2016 by DrmDoc

[iNow]

We can't try and convict people based on what they think, nor can we prevent them from having specific occupations, only for how they act and ultimately behave. Unfortunately, for so many police lately we can't even seem to try and convict them based on actual behavior.

[Delta1212]

APD chief Art Acevedo had not seen the video before this week, because the supervisor who reviewed footage of the incident didn't believe it was serious enough to be investigated. Now, Acevedo says he cannot discipline the officers for their actions because a six-month statute of limitations on officer misconduct has elapsed.

Jesus wept.

[DrmDoc]

Jesus wept.

 

That supervisor must have been negligently biased or totally blind, which legitimizes our need for civilian oversight of police investigations.

[MigL]

Not to place the blame on the tiny black woman, but why was there a 'tussle' with the police before she was thrown on the hood of the car and arrested.

She's a schoolteacher, for cryin'out loud, why not behave yourself and explain things when everyone has calmed down ?

I would hope that's what she does with the kids she teaches.

And although she could have been pulled over by police several times that day ( for all we know ), she does admit to 15mph over the speed limit, so why argue and fight ?

 

That being said there are people who should not be cops, as the one who shot the therapist proves. He's either incompetent and hits bystanders, or he's a 'dick' who likes to shoot black people. Either way police work is not for him. Take away his gun and charge him !