Is the Hubble Shift a relativistic illusion?

[Mordred]

Well if your not interested in learning how physics works then I don't know

5 minutes ago, captcass said:

Why are only the carrion birds ugly? Why are precious things so rare and hard to get to? Why do I keep engaging you guys?

Hi Mordred. I agree, but I am from outside the community and don't always know the lingo. Familiar territory to me, having visited over 50 countries. Did you know nearly everyone can swear in English?

 

Math is a universal lanquage, thats why its preferred lol.

Seriously though, you do let your preconceptions get in the way of correctly understanding DM, DE and other physics related topics of Cosmology.

Yes it has its limits, if we answered every question what challenges are left?

That does not preclude their validity for what they are designed to describe.

 

 

[captcass]

It is not about random statements. It is about concepts that move people to test them to either prove or disprove them. If our only language was math we would be SOL and get nowhere fast. You can not prove either DM or DE to me or anyone else. These are simply "theories" you embrace and strive to justify. These concepts are meaningless junk to me that shout out, "WE DON'T KNOW!" and "WHAT WE KNOW DOESN'T WORK!"

Math, indeed.

[Mordred]

5 minutes ago, captcass said:

Why are only the carrion birds ugly? Why are precious things so rare and hard to get to? Why do I keep engaging you guys?

Hi Mordred. I agree, but I am from outside the community and don't always know the lingo. Familiar territory to me, having visited over 50 countries. Did you know nearly everyone can swear in English?

 

Math is a universal lanquage, thats why its preferred lol.

Seriously though, you do let your preconceptions get in the way of correctly understanding DM, DE and other physics related topics of Cosmology.

Yes it has its limits, if we answered every question what challenges are left?

That does not preclude their validity for what they are designed to describe.

 

 

[captcass]

It is not about random statements. It is about concepts that move people to test them to either prove or disprove them. If our only language was math we would be SOL and get nowhere fast. You can not prove either DM or DE to me or anyone else. These are simply "theories" you embrace and strive to justify. These concepts are meaningless junk to me that shout out, "WE DON'T KNOW!" and "WHAT WE KNOW DOESN'T WORK!"

Math, indeed.

[Mordred]

Well if you understand physics as well as I do then you would know were not that far from being able to explain both DE, DM and potentially inflation..

  However you won't believe in basic physics involved in those two topics so its pointless trying to explain how, with regards to SO(10) and Helicity applications via the Higgs seesaw mechanism.

Just waiting for better data to confirm quite frankly in my opinion.

[captcass]

I love what you are saying. I love that BeeCee loves the data and how it all fits together so well, the CMB and the thermodynamics, et. al.. We have had this debate before. The simple truth is that none of it is coming together and it is now constructed of far more outrageous claims than I am making. At least we know it is really a matter of perception now. We need to pursue that track.

Higgs seesaw indeed. Can you tell me how many proposed mechanisms there are "out there"? All I see is hopeful thinking and a lot of clap trap.

The only facts I see out there is that the universe appears to be expanding at an accelerating rate and that GR does not appear to explain galactic rotation velocities. The theories that follow are all just lunacy to me.....totally unsupported rubbish.

[Mordred]

Really I know you won't understand the math but here is the papers.

DE has been my field of active research for over a decade now. Just to highlight my years studying the topic.

 

 

DARK MATTER AS STERILE NEUTRINOS

http://arxiv.org/abs/1402.4119
http://arxiv.org/abs/1402.2301
http://arxiv.org/abs/1306.4954

Higg's inflation possible dark energy

http://arxiv.org/abs/1402.3738
http://arxiv.org/abs/0710.3755
http://arxiv.org/abs/1006.2801

 

The Higgs field seesaw adresses problems I've encountered over the years in a very elegant manner that I could never address in a strictly thermodynamic process involving any other SM particle or field.

[captcass]

See, I knew you knew your stuff. Very impressive work. I won't insult you by pretending to read and understand it. Too bad it can't come together. I'm not trying to minimize you. You really know your stuff and you have put in the time and study and math. Much more than I have. But it isn't conclusive is it? It still doesn't work. None of it does because we are seeking to explain what isn't there. Even if they come up with the math to  "prove" DM, unless they can detect DM it doesn't exist. The math is not the proof in that case.

I really appreciate your time and friendly demeanor. It seems you are the gentleman here.

Gotta love you, Mordred, really I do.

[Mordred]

I tried the isn't there route at one time, back when I first started.

Coincidentally I even tried its all a relativistic illusion.

The equations I have tried to show you explain why the latter isn't true.

Observational evidence under numerous different bodies of evidence denied the first.

I literally spent two solid years trying to explain DM under virial theorem, just to get the tools to understand the NFW profile.  Funny part is the dang early structure formation killed my efforts. Go figure did the same for a number of theories.

 For DE, well I've mentioned numerous times redshift is only a commonly recognized body of evidence, their is plenty of others without requiring redshift.

(no that is not my work above) those are papers I use for references to my studies.

Edited September 27, 2017 by Mordred

[scherado]

8 hours ago, captcass said:

I agree our "reality" is the one described by GR, but it is also true that we all experience the same rate of time in our inertial frames, though we can't perceive it that way.  I see that as the underlying reality we cannot see. ...

The phrase "rate of time" caught my eye. Do you think that the thing you placed within quotes, "reality", is equivalent to "rate of time?"

 

I started a thread about the nature of time and it hasn't been locked yet...I should check again soon.

On 9/24/2017 at 9:02 PM, captcass said:

But does anyone really know what time it is?

What other evidence are you thinking of?

What I know is that it, 'Time', our observation and resultant conception of 'Time', is inextricably linked to matter, that every expression of it is linked to some physical process. No? Yes.

[Mordred]

In order to measure a rate of change then you need something to measure.

[captcass]

I believe you. I'll work in looking at your math. The trouble, my friend, is that we are aspects of the illusion looking to understand the illusion. It is a lot of fun, but every time we try to figure it out, we get lost in it. That is its purpose, lol. We are losing ourselves here. You said you are trying to be a Christian of some sort. Sorry, I don't want to go back to see which sort.  

I am not a Christian. I studied all the great faiths, and the occult and arcane, after I learned in 1972 that I could wash my hands in acid harmlessly if I had faith, and burned the hell out of them when I didn't have faith. Seemed the sensible thing to do.

But as you are taking a Christian approach, I will ask you where Jesus said the kingdom of heaven was? You probably would have to look it up. But he said it is not over there or over there or up there. It is within you. When we feel "faith", the real feeling, not faith "in" something, we have divine power. Things can help people reach a feeling of faith, but faith is the feeling itself. If you have faith in your thumbnail, it will work, not because of the thumbnail, but because of the feeling of faith. Jesus again, "Your faith makes you whole", and, "Your faith has made him whole."

I don't worship Jesus. I follow Jesus. I also follow Krishna and Buddha and others you have not heard of. I am not speaking religion, i.e., brushing your teeth everyday, washing your hands before you eat and after you crap, not screwing around, etc. I am just talking about a spiritual perception. I am not knocking religion. People do things religiously because that is the wisdom of their ancestors about what to do and not do for their own health and the health of their communities. Big bad it makes for so many crazies.....

Spirituality deals with how the world manifests, including embedded moral laws. 95% of humanity believes in a "Creator". Nearly all faiths, major and minor, say we are the Creator's children and that the world is made for us.

Nearly everyone believes in miracles, with strong traditions in all faiths. Mohammed only claimed the Quran as a miracle, but Islam recognizes the miracles associated with the other prophets.

My point here is that there is a longstanding universal understanding, with innumerable proofs, that miracles occur. This proves the "laws" are not invariant. I personally know this to be true from an endless stream of experiences, including  lifelong materializations. Indeed, it is materializing for me just as i write this.

I am searching for the science to fit my spiritual point of view, a quantum field view, because I have been living in that world since 1974 and I have always felt that both relativity and quantum physics were completely compatible with what I experience.

I cannot be convinced otherwise, because I LIVE in the world of light and magic. It is impossible for me to see it otherwise. I found the kingdom within myself.....

It is only evolving light. It is great we can do so much with it with our science, but it is still just evolving light. I know that is a little sad. But it is also friggion' great.

Because I see the evolving light field, and not movement through space, I believe we will find the correct answers by following Lorentz and Einstein into a world of perspectives, not solid physics. We are doing this in quantum physics. I would note that there is no agreement on why qm works. The Copenhagen convention is a cop out.

I agree that all this illusion stuff lets us detonate an H bomb, but we are way deep into the illusion there. To repeat myself, we know what we see is not what is going on, though it sure seems that way.

Light, itself, is not logical, as its speed is independent of not just the movement of its point of origin, but also the perceived rate of time difference between frames. Don't you find this strange? (Sorry, not you, Strange), We just accept that and it makes everything else work, but, really, is that logical at all? I don't think so. I think there is much to be thought about there alone.

Sorry for the ramble. Time for bed.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, scherado said:

The phrase "rate of time" caught my eye. Do you think that the thing you placed within quotes, "reality", is equivalent to "rate of time?"

 

I started a thread about the nature of time and it hasn't been locked yet...I should check again soon.

What I know is that it, 'Time', our observation and resultant conception of 'Time', is inextricably linked to matter, that every expression of it is linked to some physical process. No? Yes.

I would say no, though the others on this thread will disagree. I would say matter is linked to time, not time to matter. Matter is not solid, it is events in space occurring over time. Chicken and egg? I think not. I am thinking dilation in time is responsible for events in space, including the perception of depth.

[beecee]

2 hours ago, captcass said:

I really appreciate your time and friendly demeanor. It seems you are the gentleman here.

Gotta love you, Mordred, really I do.

Mordred imo has taken a softly softly approach with you, as all did in the beginning of your claims and confessions of those claims being based on an agenda. Mordred has actually echoed the claims most of us have made, but in probably nicer terms then maybe I have or anyone else.....

 

2 hours ago, Mordred said:

Seriously though, you do let your preconceptions get in the way of correctly understanding DM, DE and other physics related topics of Cosmology.

I believe as with most with a religious obsession, that you are blinkered to the marvels, and predictive power of GR and dismiss it entirely for the reasons I stated very early on in the thread...that is that the power, logic, explanatory expertise, and predictability of science, has driven other long held mythical beliefs into near oblivion. That obviously may grate on you and prevent you in seeing the gentleman that I truly am.  But we all have our styles, and I'm equally impressed with Mordred's, but obviously I'm no Mordred, either in my style or knowledge.

 

37 minutes ago, captcass said:

I believe you. I'll work in looking at your math. The trouble, my friend, is that we are aspects of the illusion looking to understand the illusion. It is a lot of fun, but every time we try to figure it out, we get lost in it. That is its purpose, lol. We are losing ourselves here. You said you are trying to be a Christian of some sort. Sorry, I don't want to go back to see which sort.  

I am not a Christian. I studied all the great faiths, and the occult and arcane, after I learned in 1972 that I could wash my hands in acid harmlessly if I had faith, and burned the hell out of them when I didn't have faith. Seemed the sensible thing to do.

But as you are taking a Christian approach, I will ask you where Jesus said the kingdom of heaven was? You probably would have to look it up. But he said it is not over there or over there or up there. It is within you. When we feel "faith", the real feeling, not faith "in" something, we have divine power. Things can help people reach a feeling of faith, but faith is the feeling itself. If you have faith in your thumbnail, it will work, not because of the thumbnail, but because of the feeling of faith. Jesus again, "Your faith makes you whole", and, "Your faith has made him whole."

I don't worship Jesus. I follow Jesus. I also follow Krishna and Buddha and others you have not heard of. I am not speaking religion, i.e., brushing your teeth everyday, washing your hands before you eat and after you crap, not screwing around, etc. I am just talking about a spiritual perception. I am not knocking religion. People do things religiously because that is the wisdom of their ancestors about what to do and not do for their own health and the health of their communities. Big bad it makes for so many crazies.....

Spirituality deals with how the world manifests, including embedded moral laws. 95% of humanity believes in a "Creator". Nearly all faiths, major and minor, say we are the Creator's children and that the world is made for us.

Nearly everyone believes in miracles, with strong traditions in all faiths. Mohammed only claimed the Quran as a miracle, but Islam recognizes the miracles associated with the other prophets.

My point here is that there is a longstanding universal understanding, with innumerable proofs, that miracles occur. This proves the "laws" are not invariant. I personally know this to be true from an endless stream of experiences, including  lifelong materializations. Indeed, it is materializing for me just as i write this.

I am searching for the science to fit my spiritual point of view, a quantum field view, because I have been living in that world since 1974 and I have always felt that both relativity and quantum physics were completely compatible with what I experience.

I cannot be convinced otherwise, because I LIVE in the world of light and magic. It is impossible for me to see it otherwise. I found the kingdom within myself.....

It is only evolving light. It is great we can do so much with it with our science, but it is still just evolving light. I know that is a little sad. But it is also friggion' great.

Because I see the evolving light field, and not movement through space, I believe we will find the correct answers by following Lorentz and Einstein into a world of perspectives, not solid physics. We are doing this in quantum physics. I would note that there is no agreement on why qm works. The Copenhagen convention is a cop out.

I agree that all this illusion stuff lets us detonate an H bomb, but we are way deep into the illusion there. To repeat myself, we know what we see is not what is going on, though it sure seems that way.

Light, itself, is not logical, as its speed is independent of not just the movement of its point of origin, but also the perceived rate of time difference between frames. Don't you find this strange? (Sorry, not you, Strange), We just accept that and it makes everything else work, but, really, is that logical at all? I don't think so. I think there is much to be thought about there alone.

Sorry for the ramble. Time for bed.

I have highlighted the probable only fact in your ramble, and obviously as many of your posts seem to reflect this with mentions of creations etc, certainly imo supports your blinkered attitude and the agenda behind it. In essence, it appears to me that your are trying to upturn every pebble of scientific knowledge, and pretend its at fault, for the fact that cosmology as a science has led the way into banishing the many previous mythical beliefs  that you seem to fervently uphold.

Edited September 27, 2017 by beecee

[scherado]

53 minutes ago, captcass said:

...

I would say no, though the others on this thread will disagree. I would say matter is linked to time, not time to matter. Matter is not solid, it is events in space occurring over time. Chicken and egg? I think not. I am thinking dilation in time is responsible for events in space, including the perception of depth.

I do believe that your sentences indicate that you should have typed, "yes".

No? Yes.

I ask you this simple question: On what basis would you entertain the scenario of 'Time' without matter in motion? Please note that I didn't end that sentence after the word "matter."

Edited September 27, 2017 by scherado

[Strange]

3 hours ago, captcass said:

You can not prove either DM or DE to me or anyone else. These are simply "theories" you embrace and strive to justify. These concepts are meaningless junk to me that shout out, "WE DON'T KNOW!" and "WHAT WE KNOW DOESN'T WORK!"

You are totally ignorant of how science works. You don't now what the word theory means. You have now waved the "only a theory" flag and revealed your true colours. You have demonstrated yourself to be an ignorant crackpot.

At the very least, "dark matter" and "dark energy" are just place holders for phenomena that are not explained. 

In the case of dark matter there is now overwhelming evidence that t is a form of matter. You can, of course, ignore that based on your religious beliefs. But you shouldn't pretend you are interested in science.

In the case of dark energy, yes: everyone admits we don't know what it is. That is not exactly news. 

I am suggesting the mods close this thread as there is clearly no science here.

[captcass]

At this point I am just throwing out ideas for discussion. You guys don't want to do that, so that is fine with me. As I rambled above, I cannot un-see the world I live in. My path has been far different from you guys. I understand your frustration with me, but that is that. Thanks for your time. Sorry if I raised your blood pressure.

 

[Phi for All]

16 minutes ago, captcass said:

At this point I am just throwing out ideas for discussion. You guys don't want to do that, so that is fine with me. As I rambled above, I cannot un-see the world I live in. My path has been far different from you guys. I understand your frustration with me, but that is that. Thanks for your time. Sorry if I raised your blood pressure.

 

!

Moderator Note

The rules for discussion here have been designed to force some meaning into the topics we take our time to involve ourselves in. Those rules state you need to support your ideas with actual, testable, trustworthy mainstream science. No supernatural explanations or leaps of "logic". If you don't bother with that, it's all just wild-ass guesswork, and you can get that anywhere on the web.

Thread closed.