Which is worse?

[MarioWorldGamer]

What you dream with and what you experience waking life with - your brain - is the same. The intensity of real-life experiences can potentially match those of dreams but, in real-life, you have self-awareness and can, therefore, consciously modulate or attenuate your feelings; you can't in a dream, unless you are lucid dreaming, which is not the normal state of dreaming. I don't think you will ever experience such intensity in real-life that which you experience in your dreams, for the reason just stated. I think your fear is unwarranted. You should let go of this anxiety and just be at peace with yourself, knowing that it's just a dream and that's all it will ever be..

 

But if I were to ever have a hellish or distressing near death experience in which those feelings will be just as powerful as in my nightmares, then will they still not effect me as they do in my nightmares since I would still be fully conscious during an nde? As long as I am conscious, then shouldn't those feelings, no matter how powerful they are, not effect me like they did in my nightmares?

Edited August 17, 2016 by MarioWorldGamer

[StringJunky]

 

But if I were to ever have a hellish or distressing near death experience in which those feelings will be just as powerful as in my nightmares, then will they still not effect me as they do in my nightmares since I would still be fully conscious during an nde? As long as I am conscious, then shouldn't those feelings, no matter how powerful they are, not effect me like they did in my nightmares?

I don'rt think so, because you rationalise when you are awake and put things in perspective but in your dreams it's just pure unattenuated fear without the ability to be objective because dreaming is a purely subjective experience i.e. you can't look at yourself from the outside looking in, like you can when you are awake. That ability to be objective allows you to put a brake on your emotions.

Edited August 17, 2016 by StringJunky

[MarioWorldGamer]

I don'rt think so, because you rationalise when you are awake and put things in perspective but in your dreams it's just pure unattenuated fear without the ability to be objective because dreaming is a purely subjective experience i.e. you can't look at yourself from the outside looking in, like you can when you are awake. That ability to be objective allows you to put a brake on your emotions.

 

But near death experiences are not like dream states. They are fully awake (conscious) states since people who have them report that things were more real than real (that they were more awake than normal wakefulness).

Edited August 17, 2016 by MarioWorldGamer

[DrmDoc]

Near-death, dreaming, and consciousness involve definitively different states of brain function. How the brain is activated amid each state is distinct. At near-death, the brain is in physiological distress, which is not the same as a nightmares. Nightmares arise amid those restorative metabolic processes of sleep that replenish our brain's energy reserves as I have described in prior discussions. Near-death, the brain is being energy and oxygen deprived as it struggles to maintain function, which is not a struggle the brain experiences amid nightmares. Amid nightmares, the brain is likely responding to elevated stress but not as what we might experience near-death, which may involve deprivation of essential reserves. Neither near-death nor nightmare experiences are equivalent to normal conscious experience because conscious brain function and focus is suffused with real physical/material sensory perceptions and experiences. Of the three (near-death, nightmares, and conscious) experiences, conscious experience is considerably more intense because it involves confluent mental and real physical perceptions that can become lasting memory and leave indelible psychological impressions. Intense near-death experiences in the form of reliving some prior life event cannot reach the level of true conscious experience because near-death experiences are not confluent with real sensory experiences. Near-death experiences do not involve full consciousness relative to brain function and the perception of real sensory experiences. NDE and consciousness are not the same.

[StringJunky]

 

But near death experiences are not like dream states. They are fully awake (conscious) states since people who have them report that things were more real than real (that they were more awake than normal wakefulness).

Did I say they were? You are the one asking if a wakeful experience is worse than a dreaming one.I've given you my opinion and the rationale behind it. I can't add anymore. It's up to you what/who you want to believe. You are worrying about something that has a slim chance of happening but one thing is certain: one day, your life will end and that's something you will have to learn to come terms with, just like everybody else. Stop thinking about the 'ifs' and worry about them if/when they happen.

Edited August 17, 2016 by StringJunky

[MarioWorldGamer]

Near-death, dreaming, and consciousness involve definitively different states of brain function. How the brain is activated amid each state is distinct. At near-death, the brain is in physiological distress, which is not the same as a nightmares. Nightmares arise amid those restorative metabolic processes of sleep that replenish our brain's energy reserves as I have described in prior discussions. Near-death, the brain is being energy and oxygen deprived as it struggles to maintain function, which is not a struggle the brain experiences amid nightmares. Amid nightmares, the brain is likely responding to elevated stress but not as what we might experience near-death, which may involve deprivation of essential reserves. Neither near-death nor nightmare experiences are equivalent to normal conscious experience because conscious brain function and focus is suffused with real physical/material sensory perceptions and experiences. Of the three (near-death, nightmares, and conscious) experiences, conscious experience is considerably more intense because it involves confluent mental and real physical perceptions that can become lasting memory and leave indelible psychological impressions. Intense near-death experiences in the form of reliving some prior life event cannot reach the level of true conscious experience because near-death experiences are not confluent with real sensory experiences. Near-death experiences do not involve full consciousness relative to brain function and the perception of real sensory experiences. NDE and consciousness are not the same.

 

But what about the rat studies which pointed out that rats had brain activity greater than waking consciousness:

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2013/08/12/211324316/brains-of-dying-rats-yield-clues-about-near-death-experiences

[DrmDoc]

 

But what about the rat studies which pointed out that rats had brain activity greater than waking consciousness:

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2013/08/12/211324316/brains-of-dying-rats-yield-clues-about-near-death-experiences

 

A hyperactive brain isn't necessarily a hyperconscious brain regardless of how those researchers have characterized their results. As a point of fact, our brain activity routinely reach levels above conscious activity whenever we dream. Enhanced activity doesn't equal enhanced consciousness relative to brain function especially when not confirmed by confluent conscious sensory perception. That enhanced activity we find near-death is the brain generating sufficient activity as to bring life sustaining blood flow into its structure. The researcher induced near-death in those test animals by cardiac arrest. What those researchers were likely measuring was the hyperactive response to generate or restart blood flow to a dying brain in distress.

Edited August 17, 2016 by DrmDoc

[MarioWorldGamer]

 

A hyperactive brain isn't necessarily a hyperconscious brain regardless of how those researchers have characterized their results. As a point of fact, our brain activity routinely reach levels above conscious activity whenever we dream. Enhanced activity doesn't equal enhanced consciousness relative to brain function especially when not confirmed by confluent conscious sensory perception. That enhanced activity we find near-death is the brain generating sufficient activity as to bring life sustaining blood flow into its structure. The researcher induced near-death in those test animals by cardiac arrest. What researchers are measuring is activity to regenerate blood flow to a dying brain in distress.

 

But let's assume for a moment that near death experiences really are conscious states greater than normal waking consciousness, if I were to have a hellish or distressing nde, then would I have that power and resistance against any powerful negative emotions experienced? I mentioned earlier how in my waking conscious state that I seem to have power over my feelings in such a way that they can't effect me as they did in my nightmares even if they were to somehow be just as intense in my waking life as in my nightmares.

[StringJunky]

 

.... I mentioned earlier how in my waking conscious state that I seem to have power over my feelings in such a way that they can't effect me as they did in my nightmares even if they were to somehow be just as intense in my waking life as in my nightmares.

Take that as a cue you will manage a possible ND experience just fine.

[DrmDoc]

 

But let's assume for a moment that near death experiences really are conscious states greater than normal waking consciousness, if I were to have a hellish or distressing nde, then would I have that power and resistance against any powerful negative emotions experienced? I mentioned earlier how in my waking conscious state that I seem to have power over my feelings in such a way that they can't effect me as they did in my nightmares even if they were to somehow be just as intense in my waking life as in my nightmares.

 

Yes, a hyperconscious state would elevate your mentation relative to every experience you might have under normal circumstances. Consciousness involves a concert or confluence of brain function in response to the measure of stimuli. Enhanced stimuli equals enhanced functional responses to that stimuli.

[MarioWorldGamer]

 

Yes, a hyperconscious state would elevate your mentation relative to every experience you might have under normal circumstances. Consciousness involves a concert or confluence of brain function in response to the measure of stimuli. Enhanced stimuli equals enhanced functional responses to that stimuli.

 

But assuming they aren't conscious experiences, then any powerful negative emotions I might experience during a hellish or distressing nde should have a powerful effect on me like they do in my nightmares? As a matter of fact, I heard that emotional experiences during ndes are more powerful than what is experienced in dreams and nightmares. So considering this, if I ever have a hellish or distressing nde, then it should be worse than even my worst nightmares since the negative emotions will be far more powerful.

Edited August 17, 2016 by MarioWorldGamer

[StringJunky]

 

But assuming they aren't conscious experiences, then any powerful negative emotions I might experience during a hellish or distressing nde should have a powerful effect on me like they do in my nightmares? As a matter of fact, I heard that emotional experiences during ndes are more powerful than what is experienced in dreams and nightmares. So considering this, if I ever have a hellish or distressing nde, then it should be worse than even my worst nightmares since the negative emotions will be far more powerful.

If your brain manufactures both types of experience, how can one be vastly worse than the other?

[DrmDoc]

 

But assuming they aren't conscious experiences, then any powerful negative emotions I might experience during a hellish or distressing nde should have a powerful effect on me like they do in my nightmares? As a matter of fact, I heard that emotional experiences during ndes are more powerful than what is experienced in dreams and nightmares. So considering this, if I ever have a hellish or distressing nde, then it should be worse than even my worst nightmares since the negative emotions will be far more powerful.

 

NDEs are produced by brain function and are not independent or separated from the functions that produce your awareness of the experience. Your awareness and the NDE would occupy the same canvass painted by the same functional artist. Whatever the power or effect an NDE might have would be equivalent to the measure of your mentality within that experience. What people are reporting with NDEs are their recollections of a lofty experience from the seemingly less lofty conscious state of the after experience, which is why the former seemed more intense.

 

If your brain manufactures both types of experience, how can one be vastly worse than the other?

Precisely!

Edited August 17, 2016 by DrmDoc

[MarioWorldGamer]

 

NDEs are produced by brain function and are not independent or separated from the functions that produce your awareness of the experience. Your awareness and the NDE would occupy the same canvass painted by the same functional artist. Whatever the power or effect an NDE might have would be equivalent to the measure of your mentality within that experience. What people are reporting with NDEs are their recollections of a lofty experience from the seemingly less lofty conscious state of the after experience, which is why the former seemed more intense.

 

Precisely!

 

I have another question. How much more intense are negative emotions such as hopelessness during a hellish or distressing near death experience than what is experienced in a nightmare?

[DrmDoc]

 

I have another question. How much more intense are negative emotions such as hopelessness during a hellish or distressing near death experience than what is experienced in a nightmare?

Nightmares are likely more intense than NDE because nightmares generally don't involve a brain in aerobic and metabolic distress. A dying brain secretes a series of neurochemicals (dopamine and endorphins) that produce soothing and euphoric effects. This doesn't happen during nightmares because the dreaming brain isn't actively engaged in life sustaining efforts. Soothing and euphoria inducing brain chemistry produced near-death emphasizes a low-intensity distinction in NDEs from nightmares.

Edited August 18, 2016 by DrmDoc

[Function]

Nightmares are likely more intense than NDE because nightmares generally don't involve a brain in aerobic and metabolic distress. A dying brain secretes a series of neurochemicals (dopamine and endorphins) that produce soothing and euphoric effects. This doesn't happen during nightmares because the dreaming brain isn't actively engaged in life sustaining efforts. Soothing and euphoria inducing brain chemistry produced near-death emphasizes a low-intensity distinction in NDEs from nightmares.

 

Dying brain be like: ahhhhh, what a happy place to be with friends

 

Nightmare brain be like: sh*t bruv, I'm sorry but I can't handle this, you're gonna have to solve this one yourself, sorry mate, good luck, bye!

[DrmDoc]

 

Dying brain be like: ahhhhh, what a happy place to be with friends

 

Nightmare brain be like: sh*t bruv, I'm sorry but I can't handle this, you're gonna have to solve this one yourself, sorry mate, good luck, bye!

 

Essentially...yes! ​

[MarioWorldGamer]

Nightmares are likely more intense than NDE because nightmares generally don't involve a brain in aerobic and metabolic distress. A dying brain secretes a series of neurochemicals (dopamine and endorphins) that produce soothing and euphoric effects. This doesn't happen during nightmares because the dreaming brain isn't actively engaged in life sustaining efforts. Soothing and euphoria inducing brain chemistry produced near-death emphasizes a low-intensity distinction in NDEs from nightmares.

 

That's strange because I heard that people who have had hellish or distressing ndes say that negative emotions were more intense than their worst nightmares.

[StringJunky]

 

That's strange because I heard that people who have had hellish or distressing ndes say that negative emotions were more intense than their worst nightmares.

Not in my experience.

[DrmDoc]

 

That's strange because I heard that people who have had hellish or distressing ndes say that negative emotions were more intense than their worst nightmares.

 

You have to ask yourself if what your hearing actually involved people under brain distress at the time of their NDE. The fact that they survived to convey their story suggests that what they experienced may have been more dream-like than an actual experience caused by a dying brain. What actually were the physiological circumstances of those persons who reported intensely negative NDEs? Also, what was the precise nature of their negative NDEs? Did their NDEs involve reliving negative life experiences? I've never heard of an NDE that involve reliving some painful experience in one's life; therefore, NDEs must be about something else that the dying brain is experiencing that doesn't involve opening old emotional or mental wounds. It seems to me that what concerns you appears to involve reported experiences that only have importance if you survive and not die. If you survive a NDE that is obviously a good thing. If you don't, then what would it matter because you would be no longer alive and suffering. Unless you have some concern about an afterlife, which is something I don't think anyone can confidently or competently address. If you're thinking about NDEs, then you're thinking about surviving. If so, your thoughts should be focusing on the recovery process. To move your mind beyond a fixed negative position, as you believe you might experience through an NDE, you will have to focus your thoughts beyond that position to a point of positive recovery. Fixating on the negative will surely prolong your negative experience and recovery from it. Fixate on recovery.

Edited August 18, 2016 by DrmDoc

[sethoflagos]

 

hellish or distressing;

 

By using these adjectives (constantly!), your question assumes its own answer.

 

Would experiencing a hellish and distressing live performance of Mendelssohn's violin concerto be worse than dreaming about one?

 

Such a framing of the question is an attempt to deny the existence of anything but the worst possible outcome. You cannot engage meaningfully in a reasonable discussion with such a closed mindset.

[MarioWorldGamer]

 

You have to ask yourself if what your hearing actually involved people under brain distress at the time of their NDE. The fact that they survived to convey their story suggests that what they experienced may have been more dream-like than an actual experience caused by a dying brain. What actually were the physiological circumstances of those persons who reported intensely negative NDEs? Also, what was the precise nature of their negative NDEs? Did their NDEs involve reliving negative life experiences? I've never heard of an NDE that involve reliving some painful experience in one's life; therefore, NDEs must be about something else that the dying brain is experiencing that doesn't involve opening old emotional or mental wounds. It seems to me that what concerns you appears to involve reported experiences that only have importance if you survive and not die. If you survive a NDE that is obviously a good thing. If you don't, then what would it matter because you would be no longer alive and suffering. Unless you have some concern about an afterlife, which is something I don't think anyone can confidently or competently address. If you're thinking about NDEs, then you're thinking about surviving. If so, your thoughts should be focusing on the recovery process. To move your mind beyond a fixed negative position, as you believe you might experience through an NDE, you will have to focus your thoughts beyond that position to a point of positive recovery. Fixating on the negative will surely prolong your negative experience and recovery from it. Fixate on recovery.

 

These were people under cardiac arrest. They say they were in hell or an empty void in which they felt torment and despair worse than their nightmares. They say it was more wakeful than normal waking life. Some do report reliving negative life experiences whether it be through a life review or a flashback. Also, what I am concerned about is experiencing depression at the level I did in my nightmares during an nde.

 

I am concerned about experiencing that all over again just as bad or even worse than my nightmares. I was also really concerned whether ndes were waking experiences more wakeful than normal waking life as people claim them to be because if they are, then to experience that level of depression I did in my nightmares while fully awake and aware of this horrible experience would be the worst thing imaginable to me which is why I cannot just let it go and not worry about it.

[DrmDoc]

 

These were people under cardiac arrest. They say they were in hell or an empty void in which they felt torment and despair worse than their nightmares. They say it was more wakeful than normal waking life. Some do report reliving negative life experiences whether it be through a life review or a flashback. Also, what I am concerned about is experiencing depression at the level I did in my nightmares during an nde.

 

I am concerned about experiencing that all over again just as bad or even worse than my nightmares. I was also really concerned whether ndes were waking experiences more wakeful than normal waking life as people claim them to be because if they are, then to experience that level of depression I did in my nightmares while fully awake and aware of this horrible experience would be the worst thing imaginable to me which is why I cannot just let it go and not worry about it.

 

If what you describe is true, then these were most likely dream-like experiences rather than those of a dying brain in distress. These individuals likely received such continuous medical attention throughout their cardiac events that their brain never became bereft of blood flow, which continued to carry life sustain support to their brain function. What they most likely experienced were the unconscious residual neurological effects of the stress preceding or precipitating their cardiac events. Their negative near-death experiences were most likely the effects of stress, which associates their NDEs with nightmares. As a type of lucid dream experience, you should be no more concern with negative NDEs than you would be with a bad dream. You should be able to endure and recover from a negative NDE as you might have done with nightmares you have likely experienced before. True NDEs involve a brain suffused with stress relieving neurochemicals that produce good vibes or euphoria. Negative NDEs are merely bad dreams likely caused by mental stress rather than physiological distress. One positive, a negative NDE would be a certain indication that your brain is not in distress and you would most likely survive the experience. If you're unafraid of bad dreams, you should be unafraid of negative NDEs.

Edited August 19, 2016 by DrmDoc

[MarioWorldGamer]

 

If what you describe is true, then these were most likely dream-like experiences rather than those of a dying brain in distress. These individuals likely received such continuous medical attention throughout their cardiac events that their brain never became bereft of blood flow, which continued to carry life sustain support to their brain function. What they most likely experienced were the unconscious residual neurological effects of the stress preceding or precipitating their cardiac events. Their negative near-death experiences were most likely the effects of stress, which associates their NDEs with nightmares. As a type of lucid dream experience, you should be no more concern with negative NDEs than you would be with a bad dream. You should be able to endure and recover from a negative NDE as you might have done with nightmares you have likely experienced before. True NDEs involve a brain suffused with stress relieving neurochemicals that produce good vibes or euphoria. Negative NDEs are merely bad dreams likely caused by mental stress rather than physiological distress. One positive, a negative NDE would be a certain indication that your brain is not in distress and you would most likely survive the experience. If you're unafraid of bad dreams, you should be unafraid of negative NDEs.

 

People will say different things. Some would say what you said while others would say that it really was a conscious state greater than waking life and not a lucid dream. If that is the case, then to experience that horrible depression that is as powerful as my nightmares while fully awake, then that is the worst thing imaginable to me and I can't stop worrying about it. I am open to what you said, but remain open to what others say as well.

 

I am even open to the idea that the soul leaves the body and visits other realms in a hyper conscious state. If I knew for an absolute fact that I have nothing to worry about and that it would all be nothing more than like one of my bad nightmares, then I wouldn't worry. But since I remain open to other interpretations, then I remain worried since this means that the possibility that I am worried and troubled by could be true.

Edited August 19, 2016 by MarioWorldGamer

[DrmDoc]

 

People will say different things. Some would say what you said while others would say that it really was a conscious state greater than waking life and not a lucid dream. If that is the case, then to experience that horrible depression that is as powerful as my nightmares while fully awake, then that is the worst thing imaginable to me and I can't stop worrying about it. I am open to what you said, but remain open to what others say as well.

 

I am even open to the idea that the soul leaves the body and visits other realms in a hyper conscious state. If I knew for an absolute fact that I have nothing to worry about and that it would all be nothing more than like one of my bad nightmares, then I wouldn't worry. But since I remain open to other interpretations, then I remain worried since this means that the possibility that I am worried and troubled by could be true.

 

What a person says is entirely different from real physical evidence. You may either choose to believe anecdotal reports or the physical science and evidence you can research for yourself. If in your research you find that a dying brain consistently secrete neurochemicals that produces a euphoric state, then it would be entirely irrational to continue to believe that a negative experience could emerge from such a blissful state. Your only alternative then would be to recognized negative NDEs as not the product of a near-death brain. Once you realized that negative NDEs are not products of a dying brain, your only recourse is to then consider negative NDEs as mental phenomena produced by other types of neurochemical influences on brain function. At that point, you would have to research the neurochemistry known to produce experiences that approximate negative NDEs within a state that approximate the NDE state. This will lead you to nightmares, which is where you should then dismiss concerns or other ideas that negative NDEs are anything more than just bad dreams. If you're going to rely on any information you receive about this topic, that information should be rooted in the science of brain function rather than anecdotal horror stories. Research the science.

Edited August 19, 2016 by DrmDoc