Which is worse?

[MarioWorldGamer]

 

What a person says is entirely different from real physical evidence. You may either choose to believe anecdotal reports or the physical science and evidence you can research for yourself. If in your research you find that a dying brain consistently secrete neurochemicals that produces a euphoric state, then it would be entirely irrational to continue to believe that a negative experience could emerge from such a blissful state. Your only alternative then would be to recognized negative NDEs as not the product of a near-death brain. Once you realized that negative NDEs are not products of a dying brain, your only recourse is to then consider negative NDEs as mental phenomena produced by other types of neurochemical influences on brain function. At that point, you would have to research the neurochemistry known to produce experiences that approximate negative NDEs within a state that approximate the NDE state. This will lead you to nightmares, which is where you should then dismiss concerns or other ideas that negative NDEs are anything more than just bad dreams. If you're going to rely on any information you receive about this topic, that information should be rooted in the science of brain function rather than anecdotal horror stories. Research the science.

 

Do other neuroscientists say that negative ndes are not nightmares and that they are waking states more wakeful than conscious reality? If so, I would have to remain unsure as to whether what you say is true or if what they are saying is true. I can read and study all I want, but I will always remain agnostic both on this issue as well as the issue of the afterlife/paranormal.

[StringJunky]

 

Do other neuroscientists say that negative ndes are not nightmares and that they are waking states more wakeful than conscious reality? If so, I would have to remain unsure as to whether what you say is true or if what they are saying is true. I can read and study all I want, but I will always remain agnostic both on this issue as well as the issue of the afterlife/paranormal.

Your destiny on the matter is in your own hands. I don't think there's anymore than has already been said.

[MarioWorldGamer]

Your destiny on the matter is in your own hands. I don't think there's anymore than has already been said.

 

I tried my best to ease my mind here, but this is now in a therapist's hands.

[DrmDoc]

 

Do other neuroscientists say that negative ndes are not nightmares and that they are waking states more wakeful than conscious reality? If so, I would have to remain unsure as to whether what you say is true or if what they are saying is true. I can read and study all I want, but I will always remain agnostic both on this issue as well as the issue of the afterlife/paranormal.

 

I have not met nor ever encountered a neuroscientist or evidence in neuroscience who or that definitively suggests NDEs are more than nightmares or that the near-death state of brain function is a wakeful, conscious state. As a point of fact, I have found no neuroscientist who attributes negative NDEs to a brain amid the dying process because of the neurochemical secretions known to occur as the brain becomes oxygen and energy deprived. Also, I have reviewed or encountered no evidence that a dying brain produces a state equivalent to our wakeful state amid conscious reality. As I said, a hyperactive brain amid the dying process isn't evidence of hyperconsciousness amid the death process and, as evidence, our brain routinely engages levels of activity that exceed our conscious state whenever we dream.

[dimreepr]

 

But near death experiences are not like dream states. They are fully awake (conscious) states since people who have them report that things were more real than real (that they were more awake than normal wakefulness).

 

 

A dream doesn't, AFAIK, result in PTSD.

[MarioWorldGamer]

 

 

A dream doesn't, AFAIK, result in PTSD.

 

So you are agreeing with me that ndes are not dream states since people who have distressing ones sometimes end up with PTSD.

[DrmDoc]

 

So you are agreeing with me that ndes are not dream states since people who have distressing ones sometimes end up with PTSD.

 

I think what dimreepr is saying is that bad dreams do not cause PTSD; however, PTSD can cause bad dreams. Therefore, you should not expect to suffer any adverse mental effects as a result of a negative NDE because those experiences are merely symptoms rather than causes of some traumatic mental disorder.

[MarioWorldGamer]

 

I think what dimreepr is saying is that bad dreams do not cause PTSD; however, PTSD can cause bad dreams. Therefore, you should not expect to suffer any adverse mental effects as a result of a negative NDE because those experiences are merely symptoms rather than causes of some traumatic mental disorder.

 

Now there are people who have ndes just from knowing that they are about to die and there are those fully conscious who have them just from severe stress in their lives. So I don't think that they would be dream states in these situations. Also, does neuroscience say for sure that ndes are lucid dreams and not conscious waking states? If so, could you link me to the website that says this?

[DrmDoc]

 

Now there are people who have ndes just from knowing that they are about to die and there are those fully conscious who have them just from severe stress in their lives. So I don't think that they would be dream states in these situations. Also, does neuroscience say for sure that ndes are lucid dreams and not conscious waking states? If so, could you link me to the website that says this?

 

NDEs are considered fringe science, so you won't find any irrefutable studies on this topic. You'd fair better with source exploring the effects and treatment of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). Whether or not you believe negative NDEs are essentially nightmares, you will find that PTSD studies and research addresses concerns like yours. PTSD, as you may know, involves the continual, iterative psychological effects of traumatic and stressful experiences. You appear to have extreme anxiety and fear regarding a traumatic experience you have never had, which may have roots in prior trauma. It's clear from your responses that no amount of legitimate research contrary to your fears and concerns will alleviate those issues. I agree, as you have previously conceded, these issues should remain in the hands of your therapist.

Edited August 22, 2016 by DrmDoc

[Function]

 

NDEs are considered fringe science, so you won't find any irrefutable studies on this topic. You'd fair better with source exploring the effects and treatment of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). Whether or not you believe negative NDEs are essentially nightmares, you will find that PTSD studies and research addresses concerns like yours. PTSD, as you may know, involves the continual, iterative psychological effects of traumatic and stressful experiences. You appear to have extreme anxiety and fear regarding a traumatic experience you have never had, which may have roots in prior trauma. It's clear from your responses that no amount of legitimate research contrary to your fears and concerns will alleviate those issues. I agree, as you have previously conceded, these issues should remain in the hands of your therapist.

 

Belgian neurologist from Liège, Prof. Steven Laureys, has recently published valuable information on NDEs. You guys might want to look into it.

[MarioWorldGamer]

 

NDEs are considered fringe science, so you won't find any irrefutable studies on this topic. You'd fair better with source exploring the effects and treatment of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD). Whether or not you believe negative NDEs are essentially nightmares, you will find that PTSD studies and research addresses concerns like yours. PTSD, as you may know, involves the continual, iterative psychological effects of traumatic and stressful experiences. You appear to have extreme anxiety and fear regarding a traumatic experience you have never had, which may have roots in prior trauma. It's clear from your responses that no amount of legitimate research contrary to your fears and concerns will alleviate those issues. I agree, as you have previously conceded, these issues should remain in the hands of your therapist.

 

My concern was with the negative ndes which you said were nightmares. You come to this conclusion based on the fact that the brain produces endorphins in the near death state and that it is impossible to experience unpleasant feelings such as depression and misery. But I'm not sure you should come to such a simple conclusion because people have mixed experiences during their blissful ndes. They experience pain and misery during their blissful ndes. So maybe there are brief moments where the endorphin release stops since painful experiences are obviously getting through somehow. Something is allowing these painful experiences to get through.

[DrmDoc]

 

My concern was with the negative ndes which you said were nightmares. You come to this conclusion based on the fact that the brain produces endorphins in the near death state and that it is impossible to experience unpleasant feelings such as depression and misery. But I'm not sure you should come to such a simple conclusion because people have mixed experiences during their blissful ndes. They experience pain and misery during their blissful ndes. So maybe there are brief moments where the endorphin release stops since painful experiences are obviously getting through somehow. Something is allowing these painful experiences to get through.

 

A person could have mixed feelings about a blissful experience after it concludes but not likely while it's ongoing. If a person experiences an negative NDE at the conclusion of a blissful NDE experience, then that person is essentially having a nightmare likely due to the trauma arising from his current life and death circumstance. If a negative NDE occurs after a blissful NDE, this indicates that the brain is beginning to function properly and is no longer in distress. You are clearly fearful of a potential mental experience that you likely will not suffer. It should be exceedingly clear by now that nothing we discuss here will alleviate your fear unless alleviation isn't what you are seeking. It is likely that the therapy you are already receiving will provide you with all the answers you seek and require. I strongly suggest that you adhere to the regimen your therapist suggests rather than rely on any peripheral perspective you receive from Internet sources.

Edited August 22, 2016 by DrmDoc

[dimreepr]

 

I think what dimreepr is saying is that bad dreams do not cause PTSD; however, PTSD can cause bad dreams. Therefore, you should not expect to suffer any adverse mental effects as a result of a negative NDE because those experiences are merely symptoms rather than causes of some traumatic mental disorder.

 

 

Indeed.

[DrmDoc]

 

Belgian neurologist from Liège, Prof. Steven Laureys, has recently published valuable information on NDEs. You guys might want to look into it.

 

I've reviewed some of Prof. Laureys work and I believe him to be a very well intentioned researcher; however, his study has a significant flaw, in my opinion. Prof. Laureys views of NDE are largely based on a qualitative memory study of NDE content involving study participants who experienced NDEs within various states of adverse or distressed brain function. He also compared the memory quality of NDE reports to study participants dream recollections and found dissimilarities. He declares NDEs and dreams are dissimilar because study participants have more detailed and vivid memory of NDEs over dream experiences. Prof. Laureys research is flawed by his failure to include or reference lucid dream memories and lucid dreamers as a part of his study efforts. If he had, he would have essentially found no distinction between the detail memories of NDEs and lucid dream experiences, as they are equally vivid and memorable. Not all dreams involve the same sensory quality that promote detailed memory of them as does lucid dreaming. Prof. Laureys work essentially affirms the dream equivalent nature of NDEs.

Edited August 22, 2016 by DrmDoc

[MarioWorldGamer]

 

A person could have mixed feelings about a blissful experience after it concludes but not likely while it's ongoing. If a person experiences an negative NDE at the conclusion of a blissful NDE experience, then that person is essentially having a nightmare likely due to the trauma arising from his current life and death circumstance. If a negative NDE occurs after a blissful NDE, this indicates that the brain is beginning to function properly and is no longer in distress. You are clearly fearful of a potential mental experience that you likely will not suffer. It should be exceedingly clear by now that nothing we discuss here will alleviate your fear unless alleviation isn't what you are seeking. It is likely that the therapy you are already receiving will provide you with all the answers you seek and require. I strongly suggest that you adhere to the regimen your therapist suggests rather than rely on any peripheral perspective you receive from Internet sources.

 

I don't even think therapy can resolve something like this. That depression in my nightmares was beyond anything imaginable and any therapy to try and help me not worry about experiencing that again during an nde might not work. It is too much for me to not be worried and troubled by for any possible therapy to help. If that depression wasn't all that bad and was nothing more than just something very unpleasant, then therapy would help and I would no longer be worried.

 

I don't know where to turn to. I am traumatized and very troubled by this. The idea that I could possibly be fully conscious and experience that is the worst thing imaginable to me. I don't know for sure if you are fully conscious during negative ndes or not like you said. I have no definite proof. Not knowing the definite answer has me troubled by the possibility that I could be fully conscious and experience that level of depression.

 

So that is why I am instead trying desperately to ease my mind here. You say that the negative experiences happen after the blissful experiences and are not mixed in. But I don't think this is true. For example, when someone has a blissful and peaceful nde in which they go through a tunnel into a heavenly realm, they then have a life review and experience painful emotions as painful flashbacks are witnessed during the life review.

 

After which, the person will experience bliss afterwards again and more unpleasant feelings mixed in as well.

[StringJunky]

 

I don't even think therapy can resolve something like this. That depression in my nightmares was beyond anything imaginable and any therapy to try and help me not worry about experiencing that again during an nde might not work. It is too much for me to not be worried and troubled by for any possible therapy to help. If that depression wasn't all that bad and was nothing more than just something very unpleasant, then therapy would help and I would no longer be worried.

 

I don't know where to turn to. I am traumatized and very troubled by this. The idea that I could possibly be fully conscious and experience that is the worst thing imaginable to me. I don't know for sure if you are fully conscious during negative ndes or not like you said. I have no definite proof. Not knowing the definite answer has me troubled by the possibility that I could be fully conscious and experience that level of depression.

 

So that is why I am instead trying desperately to ease my mind here. You say that the negative experiences happen after the blissful experiences and are not mixed in. But I don't think this is true. For example, when someone has a blissful and peaceful nde in which they go through a tunnel into a heavenly realm, they then have a life review and experience painful emotions as painful flashbacks are witnessed during the life review.

 

After which, the person will experience bliss afterwards again and more unpleasant feelings mixed in as well.

If you don't think a therapist can help then it's almost certain that we can't. We are not even amateurs at it. We are just a bunch of people that like science and some earn their living from it. You need specialist attention.

[DrmDoc]

SJ is right; if you can't be help by the therapist with whom you privately consult in-person, how can we help through mere words on a page? You've conceded that nothing we've provided has or will assuage your concerns. Your attempts to ease your mind through these discussions is akin to a patient trying to perform brain surgery on himself, which is something even a neurosurgeon wouldn't attempt. You have to understand that the anxiety you're suffering you cannot treat yourself because your mental state obscures all paths to the resolution you seek; however, you will find resolution if you trust your therapist. Your therapist will help you get to the root of your anxiety, which probably has very little to do with negative NDEs. No doubt, the more you independently pursue this topic without therapeutic guidance, the more inflamed your anxiety could become; however, you've already made considerable progress by enlisting a therapist.

Edited August 22, 2016 by DrmDoc

[swansont]

 

I don't even think therapy can resolve something like this. That depression in my nightmares was beyond anything imaginable and any therapy to try and help me not worry about experiencing that again during an nde might not work. It is too much for me to not be worried and troubled by for any possible therapy to help. If that depression wasn't all that bad and was nothing more than just something very unpleasant, then therapy would help and I would no longer be worried.

 

I don't know where to turn to. I am traumatized and very troubled by this. The idea that I could possibly be fully conscious and experience that is the worst thing imaginable to me. I don't know for sure if you are fully conscious during negative ndes or not like you said. I have no definite proof. Not knowing the definite answer has me troubled by the possibility that I could be fully conscious and experience that level of depression.

 

So that is why I am instead trying desperately to ease my mind here. You say that the negative experiences happen after the blissful experiences and are not mixed in. But I don't think this is true. For example, when someone has a blissful and peaceful nde in which they go through a tunnel into a heavenly realm, they then have a life review and experience painful emotions as painful flashbacks are witnessed during the life review.

 

After which, the person will experience bliss afterwards again and more unpleasant feelings mixed in as well.

 

 

!

Moderator Note

This appears to have has changed from a general inquiry into a quest for some kind of medical advice or diagnosis, and we don't do that. All we can say to that is "consult a medical professional"