Guns in Texas universities

[ajb]

New laws in Texas now allow students to carry guns - and in particular concealed handguns - on all campuses.

 

Students aged 21 or over who have a concealed handgun permit may take guns into classrooms, under the new law.

 

Texas has now become one of eight US states that allows students to carry guns into college buildings.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36948149

 

Is this not a bit crazy?

 

Will it scare off potential students from other states and indeed international students?

 

What about the saftey of staff? Armed students does not sound great when it comes to dealing with differnces of opinion - say in relation to grades.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

[StringJunky]

New laws in Texas now allow students to carry guns - and in particular concealed handguns - on all campuses.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36948149

 

Is this not a bit crazy?

 

Will it scare off potential students from other states and indeed international students?

 

What about the saftey of staff? Armed students does not sound great when it comes to dealing with differnces of opinion - say in relation to grades.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

All I can envisage is an unnecessary increase in the number of dead bodies. Guns in lethal scenarios, especially populated areas, need to be used by people that are trained in such situations.

 

"Ah heck, sorry, I thought he was one of the bad guys."

 

News Bulletin: Student shoots teacher after telling him to be quiet ( Kid was having a bad day; his girlfriend split with him)

Edited August 2, 2016 by StringJunky

[Function]

The US have a long way to go when it comes to gun lincenses and Weapons Act. For instance, here in Belgium, it is a crime to publicly wear a firearm (or even a nightstick, pepperspray, certain knives [more specifically clasp-knives that snap and lock into place], ...) and gun lincenses are very strictly granted (screenings etc.) and controlled. That is, if you don't slip through the governmental net as a terrorist or whatever; needless to say that there will always and everywhere be people that do slip through that net.

 

Don't know what has ever happened in the US when it comes to arms lincensing, but it certainly doesn't look healthy.

 

In the first place, granting students the possibility to carry firearms in public is a huge mistake. Especially when there are certain emotionally more instable students amongst them. Do the US screen people getting a license? To what extent? Then again, lots of people will pass a screening without even knowing they might form a potential threat to society once armed.

 

Giving people weapons equals giving them power, imo. Certain people do not go well with power. What if they feel the need of explicitly showing off their power to the rest? What if they snap and try to convince others of their dominance over everyone else? Especially when put in a hierarchic structure where they for sure aren't dominant and aren't in charge, and have to obey rules and others, such as in university.

 

Hell, worst thing that happens to students here is they fall through glass roof domes when being drunk and stupid. The stories we hear about what happened and, sadly enough, is happening in the US, are hardly imaginable for us; we couldn't ever imagine a society in which such things are possible.

Now that, my dear friends, is where the US have to learn lots of things from, well ... Almost all the rest of the world. Almost.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Function

[zapatos]

I'd be surprised if it made much of a difference. People carry concealed weapons whether they are "allowed" in the buildings or not. And of course no one is out there saying "Ah, finally I get to bring a gun to school so I can shoot all my classmates."

 

It is of course another layer of risk, but any additional shootings will just get lost in the background. Not a good trend, but it wouldn't stop me from sending my kids to a school in Texas.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if people in Texas really liked this move.

[ajb]

It is of course another layer of risk...

That brings no benefit... or do you think it does?

[DrmDoc]

New laws in Texas now allow students to carry guns - and in particular concealed handguns - on all campuses.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36948149

 

Is this not a bit crazy?

 

Will it scare off potential students from other states and indeed international students?

 

What about the saftey of staff? Armed students does not sound great when it comes to dealing with differnces of opinion - say in relation to grades.

 

What are your thoughts on this?

May be, but the consequences will be what it has been everywhere else in Texas. The same students who are now permitted to carry concealed weapons in classrooms have been allowed to do the same in public, for a number of years, where the potential for deadly conflict is likely much greater. Although I deplore the policy of weapons permitted in schools, I don't see how the environment or pressures of college might induce a potential shooting or gun battle in Texas anymore than life as usual in Texas. What we might see is more college campuses in Texas becoming a statistical or relative microcosm of the state's overall shootings per capita involving carry-permitted weapons.

Edited August 2, 2016 by DrmDoc

[zapatos]

That brings no benefit... or do you think it does?

No, I think it is a negative. It just seems to me that the gun problem is so large that this will not even be noticed. It's like having a pimple on my gangrened leg.

[StringJunky]

No, I think it is a negative. It just seems to me that the gun problem is so large that this will not even be noticed. It's like having a pimple on my gangrened leg.

I choked on my toast! Awesome and very pictorial analogy; can't beat that.

[waitforufo]

Any evidence that legal concealed carry increases homicide or firearms related injuries? Many states have legalized concealed carry over the past few decades. Many of these states are shall issue states. There should be plenty of data showing if concealed carry is a problem by now. Wiki has a nice animated map. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States

 

 

Edited August 2, 2016 by waitforufo

[ajb]

Any evidence that legal concealed carry increases homicide or firearms related injuries?

There is plenty of evidence that gun ownership full stop is not good for your health. But anyway, we are discussing guns and concealed guns on university campuses (Texas in particular, but not just Texas) - which should be places of learning and development, not places where individuals should carry weapons.

 

Please don't hijack this thread with your pro-gun stance - say something intelligent about guns in universitites and similar.

[StringJunky]

Any evidence that legal concealed carry increases homicide or firearms related injuries? Many states have legalized concealed carry over the past few decades. Many of these states are shall issue states. There should be plenty of data showing if concealed carry is a problem by now. Wiki has a nice animated map. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States

 

 

Zapatos' point was clearly lost on you.

[waitforufo]

There is plenty of evidence that gun ownership full stop is not good for your health. But anyway, we are discussing guns and concealed guns on university campuses (Texas in particular, but not just Texas) - which should be places of learning and development, not places where individuals should carry weapons.

 

Please don't hijack this thread with your pro-gun stance - say something intelligent about guns in universitites and similar.

I'm not hijacking anything. I'm simply asking for data that would make one believe that campus shooting incidences will likely rise due to concealed carry holders now being permitted to legally carry guns on campus. If you look at the animated map I provided you will see that concealed carry is permitted now in every state. Most states are shall issue. Eight have no restrictions what so ever. Also state laws have changed considerably since 1986. One would think that if liberalizing concealed carry caused more shooting incidences than there would now be supporting data. I did a search and couldn't find any. In fact there seems to be a correlation with crime reduction as concealed carry laws have been liberalized. Why would one not expect to see the same on campus?

 

You say that university campuses should be a places of learning and development. I agree. Can you explain how concealed weapons will interfere with that? I don't see it or know of any evidence to support such a claim. Do you?

[ajb]

In fact there seems to be a correlation with crime reduction as concealed carry laws have been liberalized.

This is not really the subject here - but this is not inline with my quick research. For one, owning a gun does not reduce your chances of being a victim of a crime and some studies have shown that allowing concealed carry has little effect on the levels of crime. Thus, the benefit is not really there.

 

 

Why would one not expect to see the same on campus?

I question that there is any benefit here - only more risk of mistakes and accidents.

 

 

Can you explain how concealed weapons will interfere with that?

Having people carry weapons is just asking for mistakes and accidents. Moreover, a university is where the brightest people go do study, learn and develop themselves - I do not see that carrying weapons on campus is consistent with that. Normal people don't sort there problems out with guns and in my opinion they have no place at universities.

 

 

I don't see it or know of any evidence to support such a claim. Do you?

Read this for example https://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/campus-carry-self-defense-accidental-shootings-research/ (and maybe chase up the actual papers)

 

The general point is the guns do not make a safer society. However, the main thing I question is if places of learning should fall victim of the myth that 'guns safe lives'.

[John Cuthber]

...but any additional shootings will just get lost in the background....

When that's how things look, surely it's time to stop making them worse.

[waitforufo]

This is not really the subject here - but this is not inline with my quick research. For one, owning a gun does not reduce your chances of being a victim of a crime and some studies have shown that allowing concealed carry has little effect on the levels of crime. Thus, the benefit is not really there.

 

 

 

I question that there is any benefit here - only more risk of mistakes and accidents.

 

 

 

Having people carry weapons is just asking for mistakes and accidents. Moreover, a university is where the brightest people go do study, learn and develop themselves - I do not see that carrying weapons on campus is consistent with that. Normal people don't sort there problems out with guns and in my opinion they have no place at universities.

 

 

 

Read this for example https://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/campus-carry-self-defense-accidental-shootings-research/ (and maybe chase up the actual papers)

 

The general point is the guns do not make a safer society. However, the main thing I question is if places of learning should fall victim of the myth that 'guns safe lives'.

Violent crime has dropped significantly since 1990. I have already shown that concealed carry laws have been significantly liberalized in that time frame. So there is a demonstrable correlation between liberalized concealed carry and a reduction in violent crime. No correlation does not mean causation, but you are arguing that the liberalization of concealed carry should increase violent crime, and that did not happen. You talk about more risks. Can you show data that as concealed carry has been more liberalized that more accidents have taken place? If you can then you have an argument. No data, no valid argument. You say the university is the place where our brightest go to study and develop. I have no doubt that our brightest can figure out how to be safe with firearms. If that is not the case, they must not be too bright. You fail to see the benefit of concealed carry on campus. I fail to see the harm. You provided one link to support your argument. I haven't had time to read it in detail, but most of what I read is supposition or lacked significant detail. For example campus rape. They say when the state passed concealed carry forcible rape went up on campus. They don't say if the campus was a gun free zone however. That is an important fact to leave unmentioned don't you think? Then they talk about how good guys with guns rarely stop bad guys with guns. Well people with concealed carry permits don't always carry so why is that a surprise? Then they talk about how more guns cause more fatal accidents. The US does not have an unusually high fatal accident rate. Then they argue that guns can make arguments lethal. This gets trotted out every time concealed weapons liberalization is argued. After the laws are passed this canard never materializes. People in arguments that turn to gun fights don't have concealed carry permits.

 

When that's how things look, surely it's time to stop making them worse.

As I have pointed out, liberalized concealed carry has not made anything worse.

Edited August 2, 2016 by waitforufo

[andrewcellini]

That doesn't seem to be the case, waitforufo. https://www.thetrace.org/2015/10/lower-crime-rates-not-caused-by-concealed-carry/

[rangerx]

As I have pointed out, liberalized concealed carry has not made anything worse.

 

The death toll from guns in the USA is already the worst in the world. Even if it were true, what do you care?

[waitforufo]

That doesn't seem to be the case, waitforufo. https://www.thetrace.org/2015/10/lower-crime-rates-not-caused-by-concealed-carry/

This article claims that good guys with guns were not responsible for the reduction in crime rate. It does not provide any data that it increased the crime rate or decreased its reduction. So there should be no harm in permitting concealed carry.

 

The death toll from guns in the USA is already the worst in the world. Even if it were true, what do you care?

Not the worst.

 

[CharonY]

I remember that when a similar bill was proposed in Arizona the police openly came out against the idea of guns on campus. Their main argument was that it would make their job harder. So at least those actively involved in security think that it is not a great idea.

[rangerx]

Not the worst.

If not the worst, it's pretty darn close. On several levels. Again... what do you care about that?

[StringJunky]

Not the worst.

The worst in the affluent First World by a clear margin and well in there with the poorer countries before you get to Belgium; acquired cognitive dissonance and entrenched belief will no doubt prevent you from seeing the obvious in your infographic.,

Edited August 2, 2016 by StringJunky

[CharonY]

I should add that the argument from law enforcement was basically that it is unlikely to have any positive aspects, but in the rare case when something happens (which is generally not likely to skew overall statistics) it is likely to make law enforcement harder, not easier.

[andrewcellini]

This article claims that good guys with guns were not responsible for the reduction in crime rate. It does not provide any data that it increased the crime rate or decreased its reduction.

It's not my problem if you refuse to follow the sources that are provided in the article.

[iNow]

[paraphrasing the pro position]

Many of you are arguing that having more cars on the road results in more car accidents. That's clearly ridiculous. There's simply no data whatsoever backing that up.

[/paraphrasing the pro position]

[waitforufo]

It's not my problem if you refuse to follow the sources that are provided in the article.

I didn't refuse, I simply said "I haven't had time to read it in detail". From the above you must have found the sources with all the key data. I'm sure the community here a science forums would appropriate if you provided the sources. You will also have the fun of making a fool of me. Go for it.

 

The worst in the affluent First World by a clear margin and well in there with the poorer countries before you get to Belgium; acquired cognitive dissonance and entrenched belief will no doubt prevent you from seeing the obvious in your infographic.,

Ooh big words, I'm impressed. I was simply pointing out that the US is not the worst as rangerx stated. Not that it is important to this topic. Several of those countries that are worse firearms related violent crime also have strict gun control laws.

 

[paraphrasing the pro position]

Many of you are arguing that having more cars on the road results in more car accidents. That's clearly ridiculous. There's simply no data whatsoever backing that up.

[/paraphrasing the pro position]

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at. I'm sure such data could be easily found. So go find data showing that those who carry firearms and have a concealed carry permit are increasing violent crime. Until then you don't have and argument.

Edited August 3, 2016 by waitforufo