Brain and Consciousness

[DrmDoc]

Here's a question for you, does a brain without perceptual experience produce consciousness? I was thinking about the nature of brain function relative to the production of consciousness and whether a brain grown in sensory isolation and deprived of sensory input is capable of consciousness. In considering sci-forum views expressed here and elsewhere regarding the brain as not the source of consciousness, I believed this small thought experiment might cogently resolve this issue. So, if you're interested, give it some thought and tell me what you think.

[Strange]

I think it would be conscious. And then go insane.

[DrmDoc]

Perhaps, but would it necessarily have a reference for insanity?

[Strange]

I don't know what that means.

[EdEarl]

They shoot horses, don't they? Would the law keep a sensation-less person alive with heroic measures? I hope not.

Edited August 20, 2016 by EdEarl

[DrmDoc]

I don't know what that means.

 

I'm trying to withhold my opinion before others have a chance to reply but I think a brain as I described wouldn't know sanity from insanity if it indeed achieve consciousness.

They shoot horses, don't they? Would the law keep a sensation-less person alive with heroic measures? I hope not.

 

Morality issues aside, do you think such a brain produces consciousness?

Edited August 20, 2016 by DrmDoc

[Strange]

 

I'm trying to withhold my opinion before others have a chance to reply but I think a brain as I described wouldn't know sanity from insanity if it indeed achieve consciousness.

 

 

True. But then does anyone suffering from some form of insanity recognise it. I think there is good evidence that depriving people of all stimuli causes serious psychological problems.

[DrmDoc]

Indeed, I might be insane for positing the question; however, this is a brain that has never had a perceptual experience in its entire existence due to the abscence of sensory stimuli. We know that sensory perception stimulates brain function, so there could be a question of whether that brain would be active in the absence of stimuli.

[StringJunky]

At what stage of development will you render the subject insensate for the purposes of this topic? From birth?

 

If the subject has a developed memory and subsequently experienced sensory deprivation then it will suffer; for a while at least, I would think. There is also the manner of deprivation to consider: does one give them drugs to cause the sensory deprivation or is it done with external, physical means?

Edited August 20, 2016 by StringJunky

[DrmDoc]

At what stage of development will you render the subject insensate for the purposes of this topic? From birth?

 

If the subject has a developed memory and subsequently experienced sensory deprivation then it will suffer; for a while at least, I would think. There is also the manner of deprivation to consider: does one give them drugs to cause the sensory deprivation or is it done with external, physical means?

 

Essentially, for this question, I conceive a brain that has never experience afferent stimuli of any sort from inception. In my view, this posits the questions of whether such a brain is capable of spontaneous consciousness in the absence of stimuli essential to brain activity. The question here isn't one of sanity but of whether such a brain, without stimuli, could attain consciousness. If we determine stimuli as essential to true consciousness, then we may be forced to reconsider the precise role of brain function in the production of consciousness.

Edited August 20, 2016 by DrmDoc

[StringJunky]

 

Essentially, for this question, I conceive a brain that has never experience afferent stimuli of any sort from inception. In my view, this posits the questions of whether such a brain is capable of spontaneous consciousness in the absence of stimuli essential to brain activity. The question here isn't one of sanity but of whether such a brain, without stimuli, could attain consciousness. If we determine stimuli as essential to true consciousness, then we may be forced to reconsider the precise role of brain function in the production of consciousness.

But what about hard-wired, efferent stimuli; thoughts or cognitions developed from stimuli that have an edogenous origin?

[EdEarl]

 

I'm trying to withhold my opinion before others have a chance to reply but I think a brain as I described wouldn't know sanity from insanity if it indeed achieve consciousness.

 

Morality issues aside, do you think such a brain produces consciousness?

If you mean a brain that was "born" without inputs, then it could not be conscious of its surroundings or its body, including hunger, fear, anger, etc. It would not know to suckle or have any reason for existence. Without consciousness of surroundings or body, it would have no reference for subtle or intricate thoughts, like, "I think therefore I am." It would not be conscious IMO.

[DrmDoc]

But what about hard-wired, efferent stimuli; thoughts or cognitions developed from stimuli that have an edogenous origin?

 

As an initiate, thought and cognition require a sensory or stimuli focal; therefore, how might these qualities arise without the stimulation sensory input provides?

Edited August 20, 2016 by DrmDoc

[Danijel Gorupec]

An interesting question, DrmDoc. My bet would be: yes, consciousness can be achieved without sensory input. But note, my opinions on that mater should not be given much weight.

 

You did not specify if this is a human brain or some general (artificial) brain. A human brain might likely go insane, but I think that for some artificial brain this does not have to be the case.

 

I think that a brain can (will) experience things even if it does not have external inputs. Some experience might come from internal brain functions. For example, it might be interested to measure how much its own memory is big, for how long can it hold the data, what is the average memory access time (some form of time measurement might come from inside)... Yes, I think it can do many experiments within itself. There will be something measurable - so I think, even if experience is necessary to achieve consciousness, there will be some.

 

It would be easier for me to say something smart if I would know what a consciousness is. However, I always considered that consciousness is somehow connected to having an abstract model of oneself. And I believe t is possible to have an abstract model of oneself without sensory inputs.

[DrmDoc]

If you mean a brain that was "born" without inputs, then it could not be conscious of its surroundings or its body, including hunger, fear, anger, etc. It would not know to suckle or have any reason for existence. Without consciousness of surroundings or body, it would have no reference for subtle or intricate thoughts, like, "I think therefore I am." It would not be conscious IMO.

 

Initially, that was my assessment as well but there are other factors to consider, which I'd like to cover later after a few more responses.

An interesting question, DrmDoc. My bet would be: yes, consciousness can be achieved without sensory input. But note, my opinions on that mater should not be given much weight.

 

You did not specify if this is a human brain or some general (artificial) brain. A human brain might likely go insane, but I think that for some artificial brain this does not have to be the case.

 

I think that a brain can (will) experience things even if it does not have external inputs. Some experience might come from internal brain functions. For example, it might be interested to measure how much its own memory is big, for how long can it hold the data, what is the average memory access time (some form of time measurement might come from inside)... Yes, I think it can do many experiments within itself. There will be something measurable - so I think, even if experience is necessary to achieve consciousness, there will be some.

 

It would be easier for me to say something smart if I would know what a consciousness is. However, I always considered that consciousness is somehow connected to having an abstract model of oneself. And I believe t is possible to have an abstract model of oneself without sensory inputs.

 

For this question, we are considering the human brain only. As our most basic definition, let's consider consciousness as being evidence of thought and awareness. If we believe some thought processes might actually occur in the type of sensory deprived brain I posit, wouldn't this necessitate some motive for thought? In other words, what would provide the drive or stimulate thought within this brain without the sources of sensory stimulation as it might receive through a normal sensory apparatus or system?

Edited August 20, 2016 by DrmDoc

[Danijel Gorupec]

Human brain is probably hardwired for sensory input so I wonder what would happen... Of course, motivation is a must. Humans are hardwired to strive for some sensory input combinations (breathing, eating, sex...), but can also be motivated by curiosity and can feel satisfaction of insight... I am afraid that a very young human brain is only motivated by sensory inputs and maybe its mind cannot even 'start' without it. But if it 'starts' then there might be something for it to do, as I speculated in my former post, and there might be ways to experience curiosity and insight.

[DrmDoc]

Human brain is probably hardwired for sensory input so I wonder what would happen... Of course, motivation is a must. Humans are hardwired to strive for some sensory input combinations (breathing, eating, sex...), but can also be motivated by curiosity and can feel satisfaction of insight... I am afraid that a very young human brain is only motivated by sensory inputs and maybe its mind cannot even 'start' without it. But if it 'starts' then there might be something for it to do, as I speculated in my former post, and there might be ways to experience curiosity and insight.

 

Perhaps a further criteria to refine our view of this sensory deprived brain. What if we suspend this brain in an oxygen and nutrient enriched fluid, how might that influence your perspective?

[Danijel Gorupec]

I imagined something like this, keeping a brain in an enriched fluid. I imagined you start with an embryo brain and somehow mange to grow it without body. However I am completely powerless to deduce if consciousness will ever ignite in this brain. Those circumstances are just too strange for me.

 

I suppose that you already know that during REM sleep we experience sensory deprivation. Arguably, one can accept that human consciousness is active during REM sleep phase. Do you think so? However in this case we are talking about sensory deprivation of a brain that already achieved consciousness and I am not sure if this situation can provide any insight regarding your OP.

[DrmDoc]

I imagined something like this, keeping a brain in an enriched fluid. I imagined you start with an embryo brain and somehow mange to grow it without body. However I am completely powerless to deduce if consciousness will ever ignite in this brain. Those circumstances are just too strange for me.

 

I suppose that you already know that during REM sleep we experience sensory deprivation. Arguably, one can accept that human consciousness is active during REM sleep phase. Do you think so? However in this case we are talking about sensory deprivation of a brain that already achieved consciousness and I am not sure if this situation can provide any insight regarding your OP.

 

I agree it's a difficult question to answer without some knowledge of the intricacies of brain function and yes, amid REM sleep we are essentially experiencing consciousness within an unconscious state of brain function. Consuming more energy (about 20%) than any single bodily organ, our brain is active amid the sleep process as a result of its significant metabolic requirements. Those requirements, I think, gives us a credible clue as to whether a sensory deprive brain produces consciousness. On a cellular level, our brain has to become activity to uptake the oxygen and nutrients it requires to remain functional. Maintaining our test brain would necessitate it's continuous uptake of oxygen and nutrients, as well as, a process for eliminating cellular waste. Therefore, without a doubt in my mind, a sensory deprived brain will become active in the absence of sensory input by virtue of its metabolic needs. However, this posits the question of whether this metabolism inspired activity is true consciousness. Does the metabolic activations of our sensory deprived test brain suggests that it is aware or engaged in thought?

Edited August 20, 2016 by DrmDoc

[DrmDoc]

After a little more consideration, I think I have an answer for that last question. A metabolically active, sensory deprived brain doesn't, in my opinion, produce consciousness. My reasoning is that awareness would require our test brain to differentiate or make distinctions from moment to moment. Our test brain would be incapable of making those distinction because it wouldn't have a store of references for comparison. A brain relies on a sensory apparatus or system to experience its environment and perceive distinctions by which it is able to accumulate sensory references. Without sensory capabilities, a brain cannot perceive and store the sensory references essential to distinctions about itself and it's environment; therefore, such a brain would be incapable of producing consciousness. This perspective appears to suggest that consciousness is merely a quality our brain refines rather than spontaneously generates, which could be a very significant distinction. Essentially, I think this suggests that consciousness doesn't exist in our brain without input--nothing is in there until we put something in. What are your thoughts?

[cladking]

"Everything" is conscious.

 

A sensory deprived brain is almost more a potential consciousness than an actual consciousness.

 

It will simply look inward and experience it's own operation and the random firings of neurons. It would be akin to a sleeping state except the "sleep" will occur throughout the entire brain rather than in sequence.

[EdEarl]

What would it think? It can't think about relationships, nature, or mathematics; it would have no words to think with, and no emotions to think about.

 

Dictionary.com defines conscious: aware of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc.

 

How could it be conscious?

[DrmDoc]

"Everything" is conscious.

 

A sensory deprived brain is almost more a potential consciousness than an actual consciousness.

 

It will simply look inward and experience it's own operation and the random firings of neurons. It would be akin to a sleeping state except the "sleep" will occur throughout the entire brain rather than in sequence.

 

Unless a brain is dreaming, it doesn't produce consciousness or engage activity suggestive of consciousness in sleep. Only when a brain dreams is it capable of experiencing it's own operation because dream synthesis relies on a brain's store of sensory references to make distinctions about its experiences. A sensory deprived brain from inception would not have the sensory references to perceive and distinguish the nature of its own operation and random neuron firings--it would simply be unaware.

Edited August 22, 2016 by DrmDoc

[cladking]

 

Unless a brain is dreaming, it doesn't produce consciousness or engage activity suggestive of consciousness in sleep. Only when a brain dreams is it capable of experiencing it's own operation because dream synthesis relies on a brain's store of sensory references to make distinctions about its experiences. A sensory deprived brain from inception would not have the sensory references to perceive and distinguish the nature of its own operation and random neuron firings--it would simply be unaware.

 

You seem to have answered your own question here. But I still disagree. The brain is still a processing machine even without external sensory input. There still exists internal activity virtually by definition of the fact it is alive. If it were dead then I could agree with you.

 

As a living machine it will still seek patterns in the random firings of neurons to attempt understanding of its nature and that which might surround it. Its success may be highly limited due to the difficulty of organizing and processing knowledge. Its knowlkedge base will be highly limited. This is why I suggest it is virtually more a potentiality than a "consciousness" in terms we or a simple animal might think of it.

 

"I think therefore I am" is nonsense. But a thing can still experience its existence without language and without senses if it has the hardware.

What would it think? It can't think about relationships, nature, or mathematics; it would have no words to think with, and no emotions to think about.

 

Dictionary.com defines conscious: aware of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc.

 

How could it be conscious?

 

Math is logic. The brain is logic.

 

There are many levels of consciousness depending on the hardware and available software.

 

Think of it this way; if you lose a hand the other hand becomes more adept and much more able to do things that would normally require two or three hands. If you lose your sight your hearing may become more accute. A brain without input would simply attend to other things than we do but it would still try to understand its nature. It wouldn't get very far even over a normal lifetime but how far does the average cricket get?

[DrmDoc]

 

You seem to have answered your own question here. But I still disagree. The brain is still a processing machine even without external sensory input. There still exists internal activity virtually by definition of the fact it is alive. If it were dead then I could agree with you.

 

As a living machine it will still seek patterns in the random firings of neurons to attempt understanding of its nature and that which might surround it. Its success may be highly limited due to the difficulty of organizing and processing knowledge. Its knowlkedge base will be highly limited. This is why I suggest it is virtually more a potentiality than a "consciousness" in terms we or a simple animal might think of it.

 

"I think therefore I am" is nonsense. But a thing can still experience its existence without language and without senses if it has the hardware.

 

My last post was indeed a restatement of an opinion I expressed midway through this discussion. If I understand correctly, your opinion is that a sensory deprived brain, as a living machine, is potentially conscious with a preprogrammed nature to seek patterns in its neuron discharges. As you may know, a surgically exposed brain doesn't experience sensory directly and surgical patients are only able to distinguish surgical effects through physical (bodily) sensory feedback and tests as reference. Pattern recognition would have to indicate that our experimental brain is aware of its experience, which is implausible without a sensory apparatus to distinguish that experience and sensory references to define that experience. In previous comments, I conceded that even a sensory deprived brain will become active by virtue of its metabolic imperatives, which isn't necessarily indicative of consciousness as I have explained. I think even a living machine, as you described, is without consciousness without the input it requires to define itself and its experiences.

Edited August 22, 2016 by DrmDoc