Hillary Clinton

[DrmDoc]

Like her history of putting profits over the safety of people and their environment by pushing fracking on the US and the world? Like her history of being anti-LGBTQ+? Like her history of destroying black communities by supporting and advocating for "welfare reform", by being sponsored by private prisons, and by enthusiastically advocating for continuing the war on drugs? Like her using superPACs and sharing tax havens with Donald Trump? If we're going by deeds rather than words, then Hillary is an awful choice. After all, just look at her foreign policy experience that she's so proud of.

 

Yes, I look at the details of all that in comparison to Trump and decided which of the two most electable candidates would likely have my country and people's best interests uppermost in mind.

Edited September 14, 2016 by DrmDoc

[swansont]

SwansonT,

 

He did disqualify himself as one who unites and as one to stand for the country in the eyes of the world, and alienate entire swaths of people at an alarming rate. Muslims, Mexicans, Women, Republican Elites, the press, judges, billionaires, "my African American"s, disabled, prisoners of war, etc. Yet every time we thought he had crossed the line and said that "two Corinthian" line, that would reveal him as a fake and a blowhard and as unpresidential, his numbers would go up, instead of down, as everyone expected. Some other current is running through the country, the anti-establishment elite, current that fueled Sanders supporters, and made it so Bush lost in Florida to Trump. In this light, 40 years of government service is not a qualification, it is disqualifying. In this light, where 85 billion a month in quantitative easing has increased the gap between rich and middle class, where the inner cities are afire with drug gangs and killings because of the flow of drugs from Mexico, and Europe is afire with Islamaphobia and terrorist strikes, having Obama say you are the most qualified to carry on his agenda, is not necessarily a qualification received well by a population that sees threats they have never seen, see police murdered in the street, see their health insurance expense doubled, and have been unable to find a job in the new economy.

 

Being steady and status quo, is evidently not the only virtue the electorate is looking for. And calling the people that are looking for a change 50% deplorable, just pushes them further from wanting to see her in the White House.

 

On occasion I wonder if maybe Trump can get Mexico to pay for the wall. When he says things, people change their tune. Like maybe we don't have to be enemies with the Russians, and it wouldn't be such a bad thing if we had better relations.

 

The U.S. will still be the U.S. with either of them president. We will still work it out. We will still be great, still be tolerant, still be the bastion of law and order, human rights, and freedom in the world. Nobody, or at least not many of either's supporters are going to move to Canada or Mexico if the other wins.

 

Regards, TAR

 

 

I have no idea why this was directed at me. Using the quote function might help in that regard.

 

But: quantitative easing or no, the income gap dropped this past year

 

"Households at all income percentiles reported by the Census Bureau saw gains in income, with the largest gains among households at the bottom of the income distribution."

https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2016/09/13/income-poverty-and-health-insurance-united-states-2015

 

Poverty level down, too. Probably due to Obamacare.

 

Also, though this year there seems to be an increase, killing are at a low not seen in >50 years.

https://mises.org/blog/fbi-us-homicide-rate-51-year-low

 

Police killings are down, too. >100 per year under Reagan, now at <65 a year under Obama

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/09/police-are-safer-under-obama-than-they-have-been-in-decades/

 

Maybe next time you don't use GOP talking points, and use facts instead.

[Delta1212]

 

 

I have no idea why this was directed at me. Using the quote function might help in that regard.

 

But: quantitative easing or no, the income gap dropped this past year

 

"Households at all income percentiles reported by the Census Bureau saw gains in income, with the largest gains among households at the bottom of the income distribution."

https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2016/09/13/income-poverty-and-health-insurance-united-states-2015

 

Poverty level down, too. Probably due to Obamacare.

 

Also, though this year there seems to be an increase, killing are at a low not seen in >50 years.

https://mises.org/blog/fbi-us-homicide-rate-51-year-low

 

Police killings are down, too. >100 per year under Reagan, now at <65 a year under Obama

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/09/police-are-safer-under-obama-than-they-have-been-in-decades/

 

Maybe next time you don't use GOP talking points, and use facts instead.

Just something that occurred to me. I know there is some correlation between hotter weather and an uptick in violent crime. With this year being consistently record breaking in terms of heat, is there any evidence that this has made a measureable contribution to the uptick in murders this year or is one or the other effect too small in this case such that it is drowned out by the noise and there is unlikely to have been any significant contribution?

[tar]

SwansonT,

 

Not using anybody's talking points, just calling it like I see it. If the homicide rate has dropped over the past 50 and gun ownership has tripled, that sort of contradicts the need to repeal the 2nd amendment. If the police shootings are at historic lows, that is fine, but if it has been steadily decreasing and just in the last year reversed the trend, then the reversal is the important data point, not the trend. To be fair, compare the last Bush with Obama, not years ago with Reagan. There there is a difference but not so much. It makes the recent increase more problematic and in need of the suggestion of a cause and of a solution.

 

Regards, TAR

I don't need the statistics to feel that more people are getting shot in Paterson then usual. I don't need statistics to know most of it is drug related. I don't need the statistics to blame the black and Hispanic gangs because that is who is killing each other. I don't need the statistics to know that people from my town are driving to Paterson to get heroine which is 5 dollars a high to replace their pain medication addiction which is 40 dollars a high. I don't need statistics to see 5 cops, black and white and Hispanic, killed by ex-military blacks that want to see social justice, to know that the black lives matter movement along with drugs pouring over our southern border and criminal Mexican gangs are adding to our gun deaths, just this year.

and Obama care might have made it easier to get pain medication and that may have been contributory to the epidemics of Oxycodone and Oxycoton as well as decreased the poverty level. Maybe people sold their prescriptions.

drug addicts have a way of taking their food stamps, buying softdrinks and selling the softdrinks at a discount to retail outlets. Then purchasing their drugs. All on the government. The foodstamps stop kids from starving and people on disability from starving but also allow drug addicts to have a source of money for their drugs.

come to think of it, you could reach your deductible, have your pain team continue to prescribe 80 dollar per tablet medication, sell a tablet for 50 dollars on the street, and have the money to buy 10 highs on herorine...all on Obama care.

besides how do you get any feel for what is happening now by studying 50 year old statistics. So much has changed, you have no idea of the causes, except to use common sense. Which you can do without the stats.

Edited September 14, 2016 by tar

[MigL]

Really Delta ?

People kill each other because they're irritated by the heat ?

If you live there, you gotta move, buddy !

[Phi for All]

Just something that occurred to me. I know there is some correlation between hotter weather and an uptick in violent crime. With this year being consistently record breaking in terms of heat, is there any evidence that this has made a measureable contribution to the uptick in murders this year or is one or the other effect too small in this case such that it is drowned out by the noise and there is unlikely to have been any significant contribution?

Really Delta ?

People kill each other because they're irritated by the heat ?

If you live there, you gotta move, buddy !

 

http://public.psych.iastate.edu/caa/abstracts/2000-2004/01A.pdf

A broad view of the research - triangulation - suggest that in many settings hot temperatures cause increases in aggression. There are conditions that limit the generality of this conclusion, but the overall pattern of data is impressive and convincing,

[iNow]

Delta1212,Granted. But as an old white male, I take offense at being called KKK, if I have misgivings about Hilary. Granted Trump should speak out against David Duke, but so should Hilary Speak out against Black Lives Matter

Please elaborate for all of us why you feel the black lives matter movement is equivalent to the KKK.

 

Please clarify what you understand to be the purpose of the black lives matter movement / what specific goal(s) you feel they're seeking to achieve.

[tar]

Please elaborate for all of us why you feel the black lives matter movement is equivalent to the KKK.

 

Please clarify what you understand to be the purpose of the black lives matter movement / what specific goal(s) you feel they're seeking to achieve.

I shared an article on facebook, and I never share articles on facebook, where a white military friend of a black pro football player responded to the pro football player about how he felt concerning the anthem protests. The military person completely supported the player, and said powerfully how that speech is exactly the freedoms that the military protects, and that we absolutely should link arms as one tribe.

 

I strongly support such sentiments. I was in the army, and we were taught that there is no black, no white, no red, no brown no yellow, we were all green. Close friend, platoon mate and roommate of mine, in Germany, Hollywood by nickname, from California, (His name was Harold, he was black and we called each other cuz for cousin, instead of bro, for brother) and I spoke many times about race relations and we were on the same page and he ceded come Helter Skelter, that I would be alright.

 

I did not like the fists in the air at the Olympics, I did not like Kaepernick's lonely kneel, but I like the linking of arms, very much. Not just three blacks kneeling, in defiance, but the whole team showing that we are one tribe.

 

I am for being one people. You know that I have always argued to stop calling each other names, to give the other the benefit of the doubt, and support the other as a brother or sister, and a countryman or woman under the greatest flag on the planet.

 

Black lives matter wants to have blacks treated like equal citizens, like brothers and sisters, and have a cop, make a traffic stop (or a pedestrian encounter) like they were stopping their own family member, and not treat every black motorist and pedestrian like a criminal.

 

The KKK feels pure in their beliefs and used to lynch blacks that they feared were after their women, or challenging their control of the place. We long ago, outlawed the KKK for taking the law into their own hands, and so we should have, and so we should all speak against any rise in white supremist sentiments, because it is completely un-American, and against our principles as a nation, against our tribe, and against the law.

 

I think Hilary should speak out against Black Lives matters, when they burn cars, loot stores, burn stores and kill cops, because it is like a lynching, it is completely un-American, and against our principles as a nation, against our tribe, and against the law.

 

Regards, TAR

On Saturday I saw one college football anthem where the people in the stands were linking arms and swaying back and forth in unison. Beautiful. Like a young boy in the stands at a pro game, sitting during the anthem, with his hand over his heart,

Edited September 15, 2016 by tar

[swansont]

I think Hilary should speak out against Black Lives matters, when they burn cars, loot stores, burn stores and kill cops, because it is like a lynching, it is completely un-American, and against our principles as a nation, against our tribe, and against the law.

 

Why can't she speak out against the riots but support the broader issue?

 

Like she did after Freddie Gray was killed in Baltimore

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/29/hillary-clinton-seizes-on-baltimore-riots-calls-fo/

“We should begin by heeding the pleas of Freddie Gray’s family for peace and unity, echoing the families of Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin and others in the past years,” she said. “Those who are instigating further violence in Baltimore are disrespecting the Gray family and the entire community. They are compounding the tragedy of Freddie Gray’s death and setting back the cause of justice.”

[tar]

swansont,

 

Well I guess she did speak out against the violence. But her overall thrust is for sweeping criminal justice reform, suggesting that the cops are wrong to incarcerate blacks that break the law.

 

Regards, TAR

[swansont]

swansont,

 

Well I guess she did speak out against the violence. But her overall thrust is for sweeping criminal justice reform, suggesting that the cops are wrong to incarcerate blacks that break the law.

 

Regards, TAR

 

 

No, she's not suggesting that. She's pointing out that they do so preferentially, and that's a problem.

[Phi for All]

Well I guess she did speak out against the violence. But her overall thrust is for sweeping criminal justice reform, suggesting that the cops are wrong to incarcerate blacks that break the law.

 

That's your conservative paint brush again. Why does "criminal justice reform" only suggest the cops are wrong?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics_of_incarcerated_African-American_males

Approximately 12–13% of the American population is African-American,but they make up 35% of jail inmates, and 37% of prison inmates of the 2.2 million male inmates as of 2014 (U.S. Department of Justice, 2014).

[tar]

Phi for All,

 

 

 

I do not have a conservative bias, I have a common sense bias.

 

I do not doubt the statistics, I doubt that blacks in prison are there inappropriately.

 

If you demand criminal justice reform, then you figure the cops need to have body cams on to prevent them from behaving badly and blacks that behaved badly need to be given a pass.

 

Just watched last night the NY news and there was a video of a black man pushing a robbery victim down a flight of stairs. Should the police identify the guy and go to his house and arrest him? If the guy resists arrest and force is used to bring him in should the arresting officer be fired? If the guy is arrested without incident and brought in, should he be incarcerated or put out on bond? If he is incarcerated and adds to the statistics of blacks in prison, should some other black in prison be released to bring down the numbers?

 

Usually police and judges are a little acceptant of low level crime and give people a fine or community service and a scolding. Repeat offenders however get some jail time to teach them a lesson and suggest they are going down the wrong path. A lily white young lady I know has a heroine problem. She got involved with the law several times, due to buying or having or using an illegal substance. Finally this year, after many years of detox and family love and understanding, she got involved with the law again and the judge said enough, you need some prison time, to detox and to see the error of your ways.

 

If blacks are in jail to a higher percentage than Hispanics and Hispanics are in jail to a higher percentage than whites and whites are in jail to a higher percentage than oriental folk, I would think it sensible for everybody to act more like oriental folk, when it comes to obeying the law.

 

There are more males in prison then females (I would guess.) Not because the criminal justice system is bias against males, but because males commit more crimes. If all black men acted like oriental women when it came to respecting the law, then the numbers of blacks in prison would go down, regardless of how many KKK members are police officers. In fact, suggesting that there are ANY KKK members that are police officers in Chicago and Newark and Paterson is probably incorrect an assumption.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited September 15, 2016 by tar

[Delta1212]

A great many terrible and stupid things have been done in the name of common sense. As a general rule, I don't trust it.

[tar]

http://www.jta.org/1934/10/08/archive/percentage-of-jews-in-prison-is-small-j-f-fishman-finds

 

Thinks that our prisons are criminal training grounds, and need reform in that way, but why should there be fewer Jews in prison population wise, then other religions? I would look to the ethics and the parents and the respect for the law, before I would look to blaming the KKK for incarcerating Jews. It would not be sensible to blame the KKK police, who do not like Jews, for discriminating FOR them, and keeping them out of prison.

[DrmDoc]

http://www.jta.org/1934/10/08/archive/percentage-of-jews-in-prison-is-small-j-f-fishman-finds

 

Thinks that our prisons are criminal training grounds, and need reform in that way, but why should there be fewer Jews in prison population wise, then other religions? I would look to the ethics and the parents and the respect for the law, before I would look to blaming the KKK for incarcerating Jews. It would not be sensible to blame the KKK police, who do not like Jews, for discriminating FOR them, and keeping them out of prison.

 

Isn't prison incarcerations, crime, and the KKK issues separate from Mrs. Clinton and her candidacy? Is there clearly anything about her candidacy that addresses or promotes these issues?

[tar]

DrmDoc,

 

Secretary Clinton's massive criminal justice reform, linked to in a recent post, IS what I was responding to.

 

Regards, TAR

[DrmDoc]

DrmDoc,

 

Secretary Clinton's massive criminal justice reform, linked to in a recent post, IS what I was responding to.

 

Regards, TAR

 

I didn't find a link in this thread to a detailed description of Mrs. Clinton's justice reform; therefore, I've provided a link here to Hillary's Criminal Justice Reform site. I think it provides a clearer perspective of the reforms she's promoting than the efforts you appear to be suggesting here. I don't think anyone is entirely blaming policing for the current status of criminal justice in America, but there are some elements of policing, sentencing, and incarceration that do require some reform. No one, I think, is suggesting that a particular segment of our population should be treated leniently or any different from others; however, I do think body cameras and the prompt release of recorded footage would go a long way towards building the kind of trusts Mrs. Clinton appears to be promoting in her reform. I don't think this is about leniency or vilifying police, I think her effort is about assuring or supporting some measure of fairness and reform that will further trust between communities and police.

[tar]

But the criminal is ultimately responsible for his or her actions. You don't fire the Mayor, because some high on illegal drugs individual breaks the law, threatens public safety and gets killed when the police arrive and can not deal sanely with his insane state.

[swansont]

Phi for All,

 

 

 

I do not have a conservative bias, I have a common sense bias.

 

I do not doubt the statistics, I doubt that blacks in prison are there inappropriately.

 

If you demand criminal justice reform, then you figure the cops need to have body cams on to prevent them from behaving badly and blacks that behaved badly need to be given a pass.

 

Just watched last night the NY news and there was a video of a black man pushing a robbery victim down a flight of stairs. Should the police identify the guy and go to his house and arrest him? If the guy resists arrest and force is used to bring him in should the arresting officer be fired? If the guy is arrested without incident and brought in, should he be incarcerated or put out on bond? If he is incarcerated and adds to the statistics of blacks in prison, should some other black in prison be released to bring down the numbers?

 

Usually police and judges are a little acceptant of low level crime and give people a fine or community service and a scolding. Repeat offenders however get some jail time to teach them a lesson and suggest they are going down the wrong path. A lily white young lady I know has a heroine problem. She got involved with the law several times, due to buying or having or using an illegal substance. Finally this year, after many years of detox and family love and understanding, she got involved with the law again and the judge said enough, you need some prison time, to detox and to see the error of your ways.

 

If blacks are in jail to a higher percentage than Hispanics and Hispanics are in jail to a higher percentage than whites and whites are in jail to a higher percentage than oriental folk, I would think it sensible for everybody to act more like oriental folk, when it comes to obeying the law.

 

There are more males in prison then females (I would guess.) Not because the criminal justice system is bias against males, but because males commit more crimes. If all black men acted like oriental women when it came to respecting the law, then the numbers of blacks in prison would go down, regardless of how many KKK members are police officers. In fact, suggesting that there are ANY KKK members that are police officers in Chicago and Newark and Paterson is probably incorrect an assumption.

 

Regards, TAR

 

 

 

When "common sense" is at odds with the facts, then you have to toss common sense. It no longer provides valid support for your argument. "I doubt that blacks in prison are there inappropriately" has passed through the filter of your world view, and it's distorted. Your example of a white person who has been given multiple chances before incarceration — I want more than your common sense to support the argument that blacks are treated the same way. The statistics say otherwise.

 

You don't have to be a member of the KKK to show racial bias. That's a straw man.

 

http://www.naacp.org/pages/criminal-justice-fact-sheet

5 times as many Whites are using drugs as African Americans, yet African Americans are sent to prison for drug offenses at 10 times the rate of Whites

...

African Americans represent 12% of monthly drug users, but comprise 32% of persons arrested for drug possession

...

In 2002, blacks constituted more than 80% of the people sentenced under the federal crack cocaine laws and served substantially more time in prison for drug offenses than did whites, despite that fact that more than 2/3 of crack cocaine users in the U.S. are white or Hispanic

 

See also http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2015/08/racial_disparities_in_the_criminal_justice_system_eight_charts_illustrating.html

 

This is a real problem, so offering a way to reform it is a legitimate element of a campaign. It's not pointing fingers at cops.

[tar]

There is a secondary, important consideration to deal with in law enforcement. Maybe a primary consideration. The peace officer is there to enforce the law and gain control of the situation. He or she must be respected and given the ability to handle the situation. You don't go in, thinking the police are going to foul up. You go in thinking the person generating the call the police are responding to has fouled up, and we need the police to go in and straighten the situation out on our behalf. If you go in, thinking the police are there to take away somebodies father, then you have missed the point, and your criminal justice system should not be built around that premise.

[CharonY]

Even worse, it is a self-perpetuating issue that has found its way into the criminal justice system as well as in common perception. I.e. blacks are incarcerated at a higher rate, therefore they are more criminal. therefore blacks are under more scrutiny which results in disproportionate number of arrests, cementing the stereotype that blacks are more criminal and so on.

This is precisely why "common sense", which is usually based on the interpretation and extrapolation of incomplete information not only wrong, but also immensely harmful to society. Even worse, because a little (biased) info is used, the people in question confirm their bias and assume that their position is unassailable. It then becomes the argument that "they" deserved it, after all that is what the numbers show. Yet, the factors leading to those numbers which are stacked against certain groups are getting ignored.

 

Edit: crossposted. But have you bothered to read the links that Swansont provided?

Edited September 15, 2016 by CharonY

[tar]

swansont,

 

I looked at the links. And yes it is a real problem, and yes there is institutional racism and economic and physical isolation in terms of having "black" communities, and predominately white communities...but Hilary lives in Chappaqua she does not live in Newark. She and her husband had something to do with the three strikes you're out, and the crack cocaine sentencing stuff. Its not like I caused the problem and she is trying to save the country from my hate.

 

And there is an element of dependency on the government, that smells to me like a kept population, that is fostered by the democrats. I want to not have a line beyond which an affluent black can buy a home. But I don't need to be forced to have a low income housing project next to the house I am paying a mortgage on, that is going to drive down the resale value of my home, and introduce drugs and crime into my highschool.

 

I think a lot about how to solve the problem. I grew up in the Oranges in NJ. West Orange, and Orange and went to school in Orange for a year during the 67 riots, and college in East Orange, and had my first child in East Orange. We were broken into in East Orange, twice, once by a team one black and one white, and once by a lone black man. A white neighbor had confronted the lone black man with a pillowcase full of our stuff, leaving our house, and of course he did not stop. The neighbor lives now in Sussex county, and I live in Northern Passaic county, far from East Orange. I did not want to raise my daughter and send her to the local schools. They themselves were, like the prisons, training grounds for criminality. I abandoned East Orange, with all the great infrastructure of apartment buildings and roads and schools and trains into the city, for the woods, where bear and hornet and skunk were my biggest dangers, and deer and bear raided the flower garden and the fruit trees. But where I can keep my stuff in an unlocked shed and trust my neighbors to look out for my interests.

 

So I think, in the grand scheme of things, that some responsibility for a neighborhood goes to the inhabitants. They need to take care of each other and their property. There is a responsibility that blacks have to bear their weight in society and feed into the economy, not feed off it, and look for ways to get over on the man, and pay back the crackers for enslaving their ancestors.

 

I have no special in with the royality of the country, where I am the master and a black person the slave. I am on paar with any middle class black man, that works every day, raises his family, and protects me and my interests at home and abroad. I want to be in the same tribe. I do not however think I do a black man a favor, nor my society a favor, by thinking of him as a ward of the state, from the get go.

 

Regards, TAR

Edited September 15, 2016 by tar

[DrmDoc]

But the criminal is ultimately responsible for his or her actions. You don't fire the Mayor, because some high on illegal drugs individual breaks the law, threatens public safety and gets killed when the police arrive and can not deal sanely with his insane state.

 

I don't think this is about absolving criminals of responsibility for their actions, it's about transparency that promote integrity and trust above an often impenetrable blue wall of us against you, right or wrong. Wrong is wrong, even when done by the people we charge with policing our communities. Huffington Post reports a study which found that certain police transparency measures resulted in less violence and fewer civilian complaints. Wanting transparency in policing isn't a presumption of bad acts on the part of police, I think it's an effort to improve those acts.

[swansont]

swansont,

 

I looked at the links. And yes it is a real problem, and yes there is institutional racism and economic and physical isolation in terms of having "black" communities, and predominately white communities...but Hilary lives in Chappaqua she does not live in Newark. She and her husband had something to do with the three strikes you're out, and the crack cocaine sentencing stuff. Its not like I caused the problem and she is trying to save the country from my hate.

 

So? She's not running for president of Chappaqua, and to represent only those people, and nobody says you caused the problem.

 

 

So I think, in the grand scheme of things, that some responsibility for a neighborhood goes to the inhabitants. They need to take care of each other and their property. There is a responsibility that blacks have to bear their weight in society and feed into the economy, not feed off it, and look for ways to get over on the man, and pay back the crackers for enslaving their ancestors.

 

I have no special in with the royality of the country, where I am the master and a black person the slave. I am on paar with any middle class black man, that works every day, raises his family, and protects me and my interests at home and abroad. I want to be in the same tribe. I do not however think I do a black man a favor, nor my society a favor, by thinking of him as a ward of the state, from the get go.

Equal treatment under the law is not a favor. It's something that's supposed to be guaranteed to each of us (in the US) by the constitution. I have no idea why you think doing this makes someone a ward of the state.